Wheel building for heavy riders

(Rev. Mike Martin) said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a
good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

Mike

I am a Large-American. McDonald's forces me to super-size...

Anyway, this is a topic that comes up a couple times a year. My rear wheel:

40 spoke Shimano tandem cassette hub. It's the non-disk brake version. Don't remember the model
number. If you're really heavy you can look around for something with 48 spokes.

Sun Rhyno Lite rim.

14-15-14 butted spokes. Jobst sez they give better strength than straight 14's.

It's held up well. In general, your concerns are shared by tandem and touring riders. Check tandem
shops and places that cater to loaded touring enthusiasts.

Finally, I use a normal 36 spoke front wheel, nothing special or heavy. It's the rear wheel that
takes a beating.

Good luck, Jim

"Rev. Mike Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money
into a good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

Even cheaper to simply learn to lift ones' backside off the seat over bumps.

Regards,

Suzy

Rev. Mike Martin said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off.

Assuming you are already using 36-spoke wheels, your best bet may be 48-spoke tandem hubs and
rims, some of which are available in normal rear hub widths. I say 48 because some 40-spoke tandem
kit targets the "gee, I want Extra Light kit on a bike that carries 2 people" crowd, but 48-spoke
kit does not.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

mmartin-<< Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he can
ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a good
wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

36 hole, Mavic T520 or Velocity Deep V, 14/15 spokes laced three cross, brass nipps, build well,
of course.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

(Rev. Mike Martin) said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a
good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

I don't know how big is big. A rim that is 15 mm between bead seats instead of the more common 13
with double eyelits and 36 hole and laced with butted spokes can carry lots of weight. A 300+ tandem
does fine with this sort of wheel. All assumes the wheel is built to high tension.

I have a 40 Hole Shimano HF-07 hub and a T519 rim, which is 19mm between bead seats and can build it
to 130 spacing for a road bike. It is a 400 lb wheel and would cost ~$150 shipped.

I weigh in at 220 and can put a lot into a rear wheel. I build my own wheels and firmly believe that
a good rim ( I like the Velocity Aerehead OC or Mavic CXP-33) with a good hub and 32 spokes (double
butted) properly tensioned and stress relieved will perform very well. Of the wheels I have built
like this I have never broke a spoke and have only done minor truing. You can go with 36 spokes for
some added strength, but if the wheel is really built properly, I don't think you need the extra 4
spokes. On my tandem wheels I run 40 spokes front and rear with the same build as above, and with a
loaded weight at right around 400#'s have never had a problem. If the guy is really strong then I
would go with the Mavic rim due to the fact that the spoke holes have eyelets and should be a little
less likely to have a spoke pull through the rim. IMHO Chris "Rev. Mike Martin"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a
good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

Mike

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a
good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

Two suggestsing, a deep V rim with at least 36 spokes built by a very competent builder. The other
suggestion is to tell your friend to get some fat tires, 30mm wide should do, and keep them pumped
up to full pressure. That will extend the life of his wheels.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

Good solid 36-spoke wheels should do him fine. I built mine with straight-gauge 14 spokes, brass
nipples, on a pair of SUP Ceramic rims about 6 years ago.

I've ridden my loaded tourer on some very rough un-paved roads, have over 15,000 mi on those 36
spoke wheels. I weigh 170, my gear is usually around 70-90 lb, including panniers/water. This checks
in for a total around 240-260.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "big guy", but these have certainly proven themselves for me,
and similarly on one of my touring buddies bikes (he's ridden a good deal of those bad miles w/me,
on very similar wheels).

-pete

"Rev. Mike Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a
good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

Mike

Also, remember that the amount of dish in a rear wheel plays a big role in its potential
reliability. If you are willing to use a 7spd freehub body, you "gain" about 5mm in the relative
positions of the flanges to the center of the axle, which is significant. You can still have an
8-speed setup by doing the "8 of 9 on 7" setup as described in Sheldon's article about Shimano
cassettes (sheldonbrown.comk7.htmlOpen ↗).

Bruce

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

14-15-14 butted spokes. Jobst sez they give better strength than straight 14's.

No, Jobst says butted spokes build a more durable wheel. Two different things.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

Alex Rodriguez said:

No, Jobst says butted spokes build a more durable wheel. Two different things.
-----------------

Personally, I think it is a hypothesis that has not been proven in actual use. It is constantly
repeated and now people claim empirical evidence.

Where is the actual proof for real conditions?

Paul Kopit said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

No, Jobst says butted spokes build a more durable wheel. Two different things.
-----------------

Personally, I think it is a hypothesis that has not been proven in actual use. It is constantly
repeated and now people claim empirical evidence.

Where is the actual proof for real conditions?

Newton says that two bodies are attracted to each other. Some guy applied Newton's law of gravity to
my wallet, saying that if I drop it, it will fall to the ground. I want actual proof that my wallet
won't go into orbit if I drop it tomorrow.

People keep telling me that my insistence on actual proof is ridiculous, but how do they know these
predictions apply to my wallet when they've only been tested on other objects.

Stergios

Alex Rodriguez said:

Quoted message said:

No, Jobst says butted spokes build a more durable wheel. Two different things.

Actually, he calls them "swaged" but I consider "butted" to be the more appropriate term.

Paul Kopit said:

Personally, I think it is a hypothesis that has not been proven in actual use. It is constantly
repeated and now people claim empirical evidence.

Where is the actual proof for real conditions?

I was slow to accept this myself, but a rash of rim failures due to cracking around the spoke holes
made a believer out of me. This is the main problem associated with straight-gauge spokes, if they
are tigthe enough.

Sheldon "The Willow Tree Bends, The Oak Tree Breaks" Brown
+---------------------------------------------+
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+---------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a
good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

It depends on how much he weighs and what wheels he's thrashing. I thrashed a lot of wheels (I'm
225#) until I got new wheels and tensioned/stress-relieved them, as described in Jobst Brandt's fine
work, "The Bicycle Wheel". Since then, I've pounded the hell out of my 32 spoke wheels (Mavic 517,
Campagnolo Sydney 2000) and they've held true. This includes several long descents through the
"North Shore Extreme" as fast as I dare to go.

Rick

dorn-<< I weigh in at 220 and can put a lot into a rear wheel. I build my own wheels and firmly
believe that a good rim ( I like the Velocity Aerehead OC or Mavic CXP-33) with a good hub and 32
spokes (double butted) properly tensioned and stress relieved will perform very well. >><BR><BR>

Not doubting you build, but i would say the Velocity OCR, at about 400 grams and 32 hole may be a
little light for you...The CXP-33 weighs quite a bit more...

<< You can go with 36 spokes for some added strength, but if the wheel is really built properly, I
don't think you need the extra 4 spokes. >><BR><BR>

Don't get this...4 spokes weigh 28 grams but there is no doubt it is a stronger wheel than 32...why
this aversion to 36 hole wheels, particularly for people that are .1 of a ton???

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Ouch! That .1 ton hurt! Luckily I'm only 105 kilo's myself.

I have the similar problems - broken spokes, spokes loosening themselves (after 40 miles???). I'm
currently waiting on a set from a custom builder. I was on 32 spoke Ultegra hubs & Mavic OpenPro
rims; the builder has suggested 36 butted spokes, CXP33 rims with DT Swiss Onyx hubs.

I'll let you know

-Kalukis

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

dorn-<< I weigh in at 220 and can put a lot into a rear wheel. I build my

own

Quoted message said:

wheels and firmly believe that a good rim ( I like the Velocity Aerehead OC or Mavic CXP-33) with
a good hub and 32 spokes (double butted) properly tensioned and stress relieved will perform very
well. >><BR><BR>

Not doubting you build, but i would say the Velocity OCR, at about 400

grams

Quoted message said:

and 32 hole may be a little light for you...The CXP-33 weighs quite a bit more...

<< You can go with 36 spokes for some added strength, but if the wheel is really built properly, I
don't think you need the extra 4 spokes.

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Don't get this...4 spokes weigh 28 grams but there is no doubt it is a

stronger

Quoted message said:

wheel than 32...why this aversion to 36 hole wheels, particularly for

people

Quoted message said:

that are .1 of a ton???

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Ouch! That .1 ton hurt! Luckily I'm only 105 kilo's myself.

I have the similar problems - broken spokes, spokes loosening themselves (after 40 miles???). I'm
currently waiting on a set from a custom builder. I was on 32 spoke Ultegra hubs & Mavic OpenPro
rims; the builder has suggested 36 butted spokes, CXP33 rims with DT Swiss Onyx hubs.

At your weight, a well-built wheel with those parts will stay true.

Rick

"Paul Kopit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

No, Jobst says butted spokes build a more durable wheel. Two different things.
-----------------

Personally, I think it is a hypothesis that has not been proven in actual use. It is constantly
repeated and now people claim empirical evidence.

The part of the rim that is closest to the ground deflects from the supported weight. That
deflection causes the spoke to change tension. This much is easy to verify by plucking spokes. A
butted spoke, being more elastic (something that can't be argued), will undergo less of a change in
tension (absolute). A smaller change in tension will fatigue a spoke bed less. Whether spoke bed
load cycling is a limiting factor in rim life is arguable. Having had a few rims die that way, I
think it very well may be, at least for me. Since spokes never break in the middle, there's no
advantage to making it thicker than necessary. That limit seems to be more windup during building
than anything else.

Jim Cronin said:

Quoted message said:

Who can give me some ideas on building a wheel for a big guy that wants to ride but keeps
thrashing wheels, he's riding city streets, not racing or slamming down hills or over rocks,
potholes, bumps, or curbs, he just needs something that will stand up to his hefty size until he
can ride the pounds off. He's on a budget but obviously it's cheaper to put a little money into a
good wheel than it is to have it rebuilt over and over again.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, this is a topic that comes up a couple times a year. My rear wheel:

Quoted message said:

40 spoke Shimano tandem cassette hub. It's the non-disk brake version. Don't remember the model
number. If you're really heavy you can look around for something with 48 spokes.

Quoted message said:

Sun Rhyno Lite rim.

Quoted message said:

14-15-14 butted spokes. Jobst sez they give better strength than straight 14's.

I didn't say exactly that but butted spokes improve spoke and rim durability against fatigue
failures. The strength of a wheel depends on spoke tension and the more tension the greater the load
a wheel can carry. That tension is limited by the rim, that will generally collapse before spokes
are even close to their maximum stress. Therefore, thicker spokes do not help in most cases other
than in a low spoke count wheel.

I think the problem in assessing what is needed is that the type of wheel failure in question has
not been defined. Are these rim failures, dents, spoke failures or flange break-outs?

Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA