What was Di Luca thinking?

In article <[email hidden]>,

trg said:

He led Simoni and Rujano just about the whole way up the Finestre. Did he
think he had a better chance making the podium by taking 3+ minutes off of
Savoldelli rather than 8 seconds from Rujano? Did he think he could ride
away from Rujano there? He burned himself out. He could have just ridden on
the back the whole way like Rujano and saved his strength for the easier
Sestriere where his excellent finishing skill could have made up the
difference (especially with bonus seconds at stake.)

On the 9% Finestre, the value of having a team present is overrated -
I'm guessing they averaged about 12 MPH, climbing about 85 feet per
minute. I suspect that Di Luca did think he could out-climb to the top.
Being stuck in no man's land on the descent may have cost a few seconds.

Given how well Rujano has performed on finishing climbs, Di Luca's only
chance might have been to build a gap on the penultimate climb. Or pray
for Rujano to puncture on the dirt.

MrBob

trg said:

Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?

If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
like the Finestre, not Sestriere.

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Ewoud Dronkert said:

trg said:

Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?

If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
like the Finestre, not Sestriere.

And he's usually a better descender. Shame about the cramp...
All the best
Dan Gregory

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

trg said:

Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?

If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
like the Finestre, not Sestriere.

I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short, like
you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though. The steeper and longer the
climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
de
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Quoted message said:

trg said:

Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?

If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
like the Finestre, not Sestriere.

I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short, like
you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though. The steeper and longer
the
climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.

I also think he may have shot himself on his foot and played in the hand of
Savoldelli (by the way, what was Lotto's business in helping Savoldelli?).
There was a moment when Savoldelli was isolated going up the Finestre. At
that point Simoni, Rujano and Di Luca were part of a compact group that also
included Gárate and others. Di Luca's rhythm did not manage to eliminate his
most direct competitors (Simoni and Rujano) and instead helped Savoldelli to
reorganize the chase with the drop outs. At the end of the Finester Simoni
was "virtual" maglia rossa and Savoldelli was losing about 20 secs per
kilometer. at the beginning of Sestriere it was clear he was not going to
make it.

Another strategy for him to get into the podium could have been to suck
wheel to the top of Sestriere and sprint for the bonus seconds, possibly
leaving Rujano 4th.

"alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
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Quoted message said:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 17:49:34 +0200, trg wrote:
> Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?

If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
like the Finestre, not Sestriere.

I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short,
like
you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though. The steeper and longer
the
climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.

I also think he may have shot himself on his foot and played in the hand
of Savoldelli (by the way, what was Lotto's business in helping
Savoldelli?).

Exactly what you say: business.

Benjo

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
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Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

de
news:[email hidden]...
> On Sat, 28 May 2005 17:49:34 +0200, trg wrote:
> > Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?
>
> If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
> like the Finestre, not Sestriere.
>
I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short,
like
you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though. The steeper and

longer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.

I also think he may have shot himself on his foot and played in the hand
of Savoldelli (by the way, what was Lotto's business in helping
Savoldelli?).

Exactly what you say: business.

Benjo

Benjo's convinced that Ardila was paid off by Discovery to ride for
Savoldelli, but his helping Savoldelli up the Finestre was immediately
repaid in kind when he just sat on Savoldelli's line on the descent, picking
up 30+ seconds when bridging to Van Huffelto to help him jump from 14 to 11
in the GC, and nearly into the top 10.

I think I glimpsed Basso do something similar in the TT yesterday when he
let himself get overtaken (was it Tiralongo) at the top of the climb so he
could follow the other guy's line on the descent.

Hey Benjo glad to see you back.
Hope you didn't waste too much time arguing with that moron D. Spencer
Hines.
Bill C

I have to agree with that evaluation. Since "better" is a relative
term then I would think the more vertical the more danger exists
against a guy that weighs not much more than 50 kilos.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
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"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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> "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> de
> news:[email hidden]...
>> On Sat, 28 May 2005 17:49:34 +0200, trg wrote:
>> > Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?
>>
>> If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
>> like the Finestre, not Sestriere.
>>
> I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short,
> like
> you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though. The steeper and

longer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> the
> climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.
>
>

I also think he may have shot himself on his foot and played in the
hand
of Savoldelli (by the way, what was Lotto's business in helping
Savoldelli?).

Exactly what you say: business.

Benjo

Benjo's convinced that Ardila was paid off by Discovery to ride for
Savoldelli, but his helping Savoldelli up the Finestre was immediately
repaid in kind when he just sat on Savoldelli's line on the descent,
picking
up 30+ seconds when bridging to Van Huffelto to help him jump from 14 to
11
in the GC, and nearly into the top 10.

I think I glimpsed Basso do something similar in the TT yesterday when he
let himself get overtaken (was it Tiralongo) at the top of the climb so he
could follow the other guy's line on the descent.

If Ardila wasn't paid off by Salvodelli, he must be the dumbest rider of the
peloton. Salvoldelli was all alone and losing the Giro. Of course he was
quite happy to pay anybody willing to help him. After all, pro's are doning
it all the time. Naturally it happens from time to time that two riders
enter in a temporary alliance without money changing hands, but that's only
possible if both parties are profiting more or less equally. Which wasn't
the case this time: winning the Giro is of course a hundred times more
important than bringing a teammate from a 14th to an 11th place. Finishing
11th might be nice for Van Huffel personally, but is quite unimportant for
the team (no extra coverage, no extra publicy). No rider is going to exhaust
himself to provide a teammate for such little gain - except when he's paid
of course.

Benjo

benjo maso said:

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
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Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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>"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>>"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le

message

Quoted message said:

>>de
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>
>>>On Sat, 28 May 2005 17:49:34 +0200, trg wrote:
>>>
>>>>Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?
>>>
>>>If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
>>>like the Finestre, not Sestriere.
>>>
>>
>>I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short,
>>like
>>you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though. The steeper and

longer

Quoted message said:

>>the
>>climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.
>>
>>
>
>I also think he may have shot himself on his foot and played in the
>hand
>of Savoldelli (by the way, what was Lotto's business in helping
>Savoldelli?).

Exactly what you say: business.

Benjo

Benjo's convinced that Ardila was paid off by Discovery to ride for
Savoldelli, but his helping Savoldelli up the Finestre was immediately
repaid in kind when he just sat on Savoldelli's line on the descent,
picking
up 30+ seconds when bridging to Van Huffelto to help him jump from 14 to
11
in the GC, and nearly into the top 10.

I think I glimpsed Basso do something similar in the TT yesterday when he
let himself get overtaken (was it Tiralongo) at the top of the climb so he
could follow the other guy's line on the descent.

If Ardila wasn't paid off by Salvodelli, he must be the dumbest rider of the
peloton. Salvoldelli was all alone and losing the Giro. Of course he was
quite happy to pay anybody willing to help him. After all, pro's are doning
it all the time. Naturally it happens from time to time that two riders
enter in a temporary alliance without money changing hands, but that's only
possible if both parties are profiting more or less equally. Which wasn't
the case this time: winning the Giro is of course a hundred times more
important than bringing a teammate from a 14th to an 11th place. Finishing
11th might be nice for Van Huffel personally, but is quite unimportant for
the team (no extra coverage, no extra publicy). No rider is going to exhaust
himself to provide a teammate for such little gain - except when he's paid
of course.

Benjo

No extra coverage when you're leading the Gruppo Maglia Rosa up the last
major offensive of the Giro d'Italia?? I don't think I would have seen
either of them at all if they were anywhere else. I didn't see Van
Huffel until he was right in front of Savoldelli.

-Sonarrat.

trg said:

Quoted message said:

If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
like the Finestre, not Sestriere.

I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short, like
you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though.

He is *even* more suited to those, yes. But between the Finestre and
Sestriere, the Finestre was for him. Look at the earlier stages, too.
Wherever Simoni and Rujano could make a difference, ie. on the steeper
parts, Di Luca could usually follow.

Quoted message said:

The steeper and longer the
climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.

So are you saying Rujano is just a cunning rat then by never coming to
the front on the long, steep Finestre and dropping everyone on shorter,
gradual Sestriere? Di Luca/Simoni/Rujano took 2 minutes out of
Savoldelli on the 15 km long climb of the Finestre, and Rujano gained 30
sec on Savoldelli in the last 4 km of Sestriere. Same difference.

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"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news: [email hidden]...
| On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:18:40 +0200, trg wrote:
| >> If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper climbs
| >> like the Finestre, not Sestriere.
| >
| > I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are short,
like
| > you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though.
|
| He is *even* more suited to those, yes. But between the Finestre and
| Sestriere, the Finestre was for him. Look at the earlier stages, too.
| Wherever Simoni and Rujano could make a difference, ie. on the steeper
| parts, Di Luca could usually follow.
|
| > The steeper and longer the
| > climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.
|
| So are you saying Rujano is just a cunning rat then by never coming to
| the front on the long, steep Finestre and dropping everyone on shorter,
| gradual Sestriere? Di Luca/Simoni/Rujano took 2 minutes out of
| Savoldelli on the 15 km long climb of the Finestre, and Rujano gained 30
| sec on Savoldelli in the last 4 km of Sestriere. Same difference.
|

It's not that Rujano was cunning. According to him and his DS, the plan was
to attack on the Finestre where he'd naturally have more of an advantage.
But the pace was too high for an attack. So they decided to not pull, save
his strength let the others do the work, and attack on the last climb.

Had Di Luca not killed himself on the Finestre, it would have been he who
was following and conserving energy. In addition, Rujano is a poor descender
compared to Simoni and Di Luca If Rujano had managed to get away on the
Finestre, there is a good chance Di Luca could have made up the time on the
descent, especially if he was with Simoni. As it was, Rujano was able to
follow Simoni and Di Luca's line since they all crested together, although
he nearly went off the road on at least one occasion that I saw.

I'm just saying that with only 8 seconds seperating Di Luca from Rujano, all
things equal, IMO in a sprint Di Luca was the favorite to arrive first
across the line and take the 20 seconds bonus, plus possibly a time gap,
with a good chance even for Simoni to come in second if he contested the
sprint with Rujano.

As far as what DiLuca was thinking, maybe he really thought they had a
chance to take 3 minutes out of Savoldelli? Or maybe he thought that if he
arrived on the unpaved part of the climb with Rujano, he would have the
advantage over thr rough stuff and could drop him and then make up more time
on the descent. (Rujano did struggle more on the goatpath). But anyway, when
I saw Di Luca doing the heavy lifting, I didn't see how it could work out
for him. He wasn't gonna drop Rujano there.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...
|
| "trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| news:[email hidden]...
| > "benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
| > news:[email hidden]...
| >>
| >> "alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| >> news:[email hidden]...
| >> >
| >> > "trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
| >> > news:[email hidden]...
| >> >> "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le
| > message
| >> >> de
| >> >> news:[email hidden]...
| >> >>> On Sat, 28 May 2005 17:49:34 +0200, trg wrote:
| >> >>> > Did he think he could ride away from Rujano there?
| >> >>>
| >> >>> If anywhere, then there. Di Luca is more suited to the steeper
climbs
| >> >>> like the Finestre, not Sestriere.
| >> >>>
| >> >> I don't agree. Di Luca is suited to steep climbs when they are
short,
| >> >> like
| >> >> you find in the Classics. Not 18 Km long, though. The steeper and
| > longer
| >> >> the
| >> >> climb, the more that would advantage a pure climber like Rujano.
| >> >>
| >> >>
| >> >
| >> > I also think he may have shot himself on his foot and played in the
| >> > hand
| >> > of Savoldelli (by the way, what was Lotto's business in helping
| >> > Savoldelli?).
| >>
| >> Exactly what you say: business.
| >>
| >> Benjo
| >>
| >>
| >>
| > Benjo's convinced that Ardila was paid off by Discovery to ride for
| > Savoldelli, but his helping Savoldelli up the Finestre was immediately
| > repaid in kind when he just sat on Savoldelli's line on the descent,
| > picking
| > up 30+ seconds when bridging to Van Huffelto to help him jump from 14 to
| > 11
| > in the GC, and nearly into the top 10.
| >
| > I think I glimpsed Basso do something similar in the TT yesterday when
he
| > let himself get overtaken (was it Tiralongo) at the top of the climb so
he
| > could follow the other guy's line on the descent.
|
| If Ardila wasn't paid off by Salvodelli, he must be the dumbest rider of
the
| peloton. Salvoldelli was all alone and losing the Giro. Of course he was
| quite happy to pay anybody willing to help him. After all, pro's are
doning
| it all the time. Naturally it happens from time to time that two riders
| enter in a temporary alliance without money changing hands, but that's
only
| possible if both parties are profiting more or less equally. Which wasn't
| the case this time: winning the Giro is of course a hundred times more
| important than bringing a teammate from a 14th to an 11th place. Finishing
| 11th might be nice for Van Huffel personally, but is quite unimportant for
| the team (no extra coverage, no extra publicy). No rider is going to
exhaust
| himself to provide a teammate for such little gain - except when he's paid
| of course.
|
| Benjo
|
Maybe Ardila managed to get some Euros off of Savoldelli, but if so, it was
for doing what was in his and his team's interest anyway-
- a top 10 in GC
-a n additional 12 Pro Tour Points
- The Super Team trophy and the money that goes with it.
Plus, Ardila was the designated leader in the GC, the others were supposed
to work for him. Here he had a chance to return the favor for Van Huffel.

It's not like Ardila had to save himself for a later stage.

trg said:

Maybe Ardila managed to get some Euros off of Savoldelli, but if so, it was
for doing what was in his and his team's interest anyway-
- a top 10 in GC
-a n additional 12 Pro Tour Points
- The Super Team trophy and the money that goes with it.
Plus, Ardila was the designated leader in the GC, the others were supposed
to work for him. Here he had a chance to return the favor for Van Huffel.

Are you sure you don't have it backwards? Savoldelli was over a
barrel. He was losing the Giro. He had to start talking in order
to keep that from happening.

How fortunate for Lotto that the pocket change stuff you listed
happened to align with what Savoldelli had huge, huge incentive
to get them to do.

As Benjo said, if Ardila doesn't leverage Savoldelli's isolation
and exposure to the loss of the race lead then he's a dumbass. OK,
so maybe Benjo didn't say exactly that.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

alex said:

Another strategy for him to get into the podium could have been to suck
wheel to the top of Sestriere and sprint for the bonus seconds, possibly
leaving Rujano 4th.

Di Luca was thinking "I'm not going to cramp on Sestrieres."
That's what.

Quoted message said:

Di Luca was thinking "I'm not going to cramp on Sestrieres."

Telephone interview with Bruyneel today on Sporza's coverage of the last
stage, and they pointed out (congratulated him on a good decision and
asked about the logistics) that Discovery/Berry Floor was the only team
to have three men with spare wheels and drinks distributed along the
climb. Essentially, Simoni and Di Luca had nothing for 30 km up and over
the Finestre. Of course, neither did Rujano but he survived.

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"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey Benjo glad to see you back.
Hope you didn't waste too much time arguing with that moron D. Spencer
Hines.

The last six month not a second :-)And before not more than a few minutes.

Benjo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Benjo's convinced that Ardila was paid off by Discovery to ride for
Savoldelli, but his helping Savoldelli up the Finestre was immediately
repaid in kind when he just sat on Savoldelli's line on the descent,
picking
up 30+ seconds when bridging to Van Huffelto to help him jump from 14 to
11
in the GC, and nearly into the top 10.

I think I glimpsed Basso do something similar in the TT yesterday when he
let himself get overtaken (was it Tiralongo) at the top of the climb so he
could follow the other guy's line on the descent.

If Ardila wasn't paid off by Salvodelli, he must be the dumbest rider of the
peloton. Salvoldelli was all alone and losing the Giro. Of course he was
quite happy to pay anybody willing to help him. After all, pro's are doning
it all the time. Naturally it happens from time to time that two riders
enter in a temporary alliance without money changing hands, but that's only
possible if both parties are profiting more or less equally. Which wasn't
the case this time: winning the Giro is of course a hundred times more
important than bringing a teammate from a 14th to an 11th place. Finishing
11th might be nice for Van Huffel personally, but is quite unimportant for
the team (no extra coverage, no extra publicy). No rider is going to exhaust
himself to provide a teammate for such little gain - except when he's paid
of course.

Benjo

What about Protour points? Lotto was leading the PT team's ranking
until Catalunya when Rabobank took the lead. Now they're back on top.
The team management stated multiple times that one of the objectives is
to lead as long as possible, hoping to end the year as the best PT
team.
(http://www.uciprotour.com/home.asp?1stLevelID=za&level1=6&level2=0&idnews=3020)

Kenny