what to do about dud wheel?

Ben Pfaff said:

At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
to decide how to deal with it.

This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.

The best solution, I suppose, would be to fix it myself, but I
don't have the right skills.

The options I'm considering are:

* Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
fourth time.

* Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
some kind of more permanent fix.

* Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).

* Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
permanent fix.

Nothing wrong with that rim--it was probably just a matter of the
wheel not being properly stress relieved. If it's got some miles on
it, stress relieving the existing spokes probably won't be very
prophylactic. A respoking by a good wheel builder, and the sucker
should be good till the rims wear out.

Spending money on getting the wheel dialed in right seems smarter to
me than buying another factory built liability. With wheels, the
quality is mainly in the assembly.

landotter said:

Ben Pfaff said:

At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
to decide how to deal with it.

Nothing wrong with that rim--it was probably just a matter of the
wheel not being properly stress relieved. If it's got some miles on
it, stress relieving the existing spokes probably won't be very
prophylactic. A respoking by a good wheel builder, and the sucker
should be good till the rims wear out.

How much is that likely to cost me? Do I have a good case with
the bike shop that they didn't properly build the wheel and that
thus they should take care of it and cover the cost, or is there
some reason that I shouldn't expect them to do that?
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

Ben Pfaff said:

At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
to decide how to deal with it.

This is more trouble than I've ever had with a wheel before, new
or used. The wheel in question is 32- or 36-spoke (can't
remember), 700C, Alex R500 rim, and came with 28mm tires. I've
never broken spokes on the low-spoke-count wheel that came with
my Trek 2300 in several thousand miles, so I don't think that
it could possibly be that I'm too heavy for the wheel.

The best solution, I suppose, would be to fix it myself, but I
don't have the right skills.

The options I'm considering are:

* Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
fourth time.

* Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
some kind of more permanent fix.

* Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).

* Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
permanent fix.

Any advice?

I'd politely /demand/ a new wheel. This one is clearly defective. (Bad
build, bad parts, whatever.) Make a bit of a stink, if necessary, and you
should get some satisfaction.

Bill "not a bad idea to have a spare, too" S.

Ben Pfaff said:

landotter said:

Ben Pfaff said:

At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
month apart. The first three times I took it back to the store
and they fixed it at no charge. Now that the fourth one has
broken, it's a pattern that I'm getting tired of, and I'm trying
to decide how to deal with it.

Quoted message said:

Nothing wrong with that rim--it was probably just a matter of the
wheel not being properly stress relieved. If it's got some miles on
it, stress relieving the existing spokes probably won't be very
prophylactic. A respoking by a good wheel builder, and the sucker
should be good till the rims wear out.

How much is that likely to cost me? Do I have a good case with
the bike shop that they didn't properly build the wheel and that
thus they should take care of it and cover the cost, or is there
some reason that I shouldn't expect them to do that?

Most shops that build up boxed bikes and sell them don't tune the
wheels if they're straight from the factory. Straight, however,
doesn't mean healthy. My last new bike I got a few months ago, for
example, from my beloved LBS, had appalling wheels. I tuned them as
soon as the bike got home, and they've been bulletproof.

Would I expect a shop to rebuild a wheel free of charge after a few
months? It would be nice if they did, but I think them giving you a
discount for a rebuild would be a fair option. I do think if the shop
sold you the bike, and replaced the spoke without seeing to the rest
of the wheel, that they are partially culpable.

As far as cost goes, in these parts wheel building labor is $40-50 +
parts. Add to that the labor to remove the old spokes. It *might* be
more cost effective to have them dial a prebuilt in for ya. This all
hinges on whether they've actually got somebody that's got wheel
dialing talent--an often rare skill at some LBS's. Might be worth
taking a trip to a better bike shop and getting it done right.

"Ben Pfaff" (clip)* Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager about
the problem, and hope that he can arrange for some kind of more permanent
fix. (clip)
*******************
I have always been happy with the warranty policy at Performance, but I
understand that this can vary from store to store. You owe it to yourself
and them to give the manager a chance to solve the problem. If he is not
smart enough correct and cement a relationship with a customer, you still
have the option to go elsewhere. If it comes to that, I wouldn't even give
them the benefit of knowing how badly they screwed up. Just leave and go
elsewhere.

When I owned a retail business, I felt that money spent on fixing problems
like this was like part of the advertising budget, only more effective.

Be sure to keep us posted.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html is a guide to building a
wheel. Ideally, since this is your first time, it should be a spare
to practice with.

Ben Pfaff said:

At the beginning of July, I bought a new commuter bike from
Performance Bike in Redwood City, a Schwinn World Avenue One.
I've been very happy with it on the whole, but it has had four
broken spokes thus far on the rear wheel, one at a time, about a
month apart.

Classic scenario. Poorly built wheel, with insufficient tension and not
stress-relieved.

Quoted message said:

* Take it back to the store and get it repaired for the
fourth time.

There is a mathematical notion of recusion. You just do the same thing
over and over, ad infinitum. Gets tiresome after a while.

Quoted message said:

* Go back to the store and ask to speak to a manager
about the problem, and hope that he can arrange for
some kind of more permanent fix.

Maybe, but another wheel they built? Or, more likely, another wheel
they bought somewhere that was built by a machine -- this will be a
crapshoot. It might be better, it might be even worse.

Quoted message said:

* Buy a new wheel (probably somewhere else).

This might work.

Quoted message said:

* Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
permanent fix.

Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
first place? But, never mind. That will work, though they may tell you
to throw the wheel away and buy one from them, which might be cheaper.

Another option: Learn the ways of the wheelbuilder, Luke.

--

David L. Johnson

I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely,
if not entirely, the use of textbooks
-- Thomas Edison, 1922

Ben Pfaff said:

How much is that likely to cost me? Do I have a good case with
the bike shop that they didn't properly build the wheel and that
thus they should take care of it and cover the cost, or is there
some reason that I shouldn't expect them to do that?

Other than the fact that they didn't build the wheel, there is no other
reason. But, given that some machine in Taiwan built the wheel, you
would have to go complain to the machine. All they are obligated to do,
from their perspective, is to give you another machine-built wheel.
Which will have the same problem.

The dirty little secret of many bike shops is that they do not expect
the bikes they sell to actually get ridden. This is usually a safe bet,
unfortunately. The good shops expect the bikes to be ridden, and
provide bikes that will hold up.

--

David L. Johnson

I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely,
if not entirely, the use of textbooks
-- Thomas Edison, 1922

Leo Lichtman said:

You owe it to yourself
and them to give the manager a chance to solve the problem. If he is not
smart enough correct and cement a relationship with a customer, you still
have the option to go elsewhere. If it comes to that, I wouldn't even give
them the benefit of knowing how badly they screwed up. Just leave and go
elsewhere.

Good advice.

--

David L. Johnson

I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely,
if not entirely, the use of textbooks
-- Thomas Edison, 1922

David L. Johnson said:

Ben Pfaff said:

* Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
permanent fix.

Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
first place? But, never mind.

I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
other than the dud wheel.

Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
shops and order a new wheel.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

Ben Pfaff said:

David L. Johnson said:

Ben Pfaff said:

* Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
permanent fix.

Quoted message said:

Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
first place? But, never mind.

I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
other than the dud wheel.

For utility use, that Schwinn is great. I paid a similar amount for my
low spec Kona, and am pleased at how great it rides, and how little
attention it attracts. Of course, being wrench handy, I tore it down
and built it back up after purchase. Assembly makes all the difference
in the world.

I'm glad that my LBS has the *audacity* to stock a few $3-400 bikes,
and set them up well, because as David mentioned, treating even
moderate spenders well, gets returned several-fold in word of mouth
advertising. My LBS got "shop of the year" from the local indy paper
before being open even a year.

We got plenty of those "it's for selling!" shops on the other side of
the river, which stock $800+ bikes that will hang proudly in garages.
Power to 'em--I special ordered a Redline fixed gear from one of them
last year--most awful setup bike ever.

"Ben Pfaff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

Ben Pfaff said:

* Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
permanent fix.

Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
first place? But, never mind.

I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
other than the dud wheel.

Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
shops and order a new wheel.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

I think you are expecting too much from a $400 bike.

Also, I particularly enjoyed David's earlier reply, comparing good and
lesser bike shops. It seems to me that Performance wants to be the 'Best
Buy' of bikes. IMHO, the problem with this business model is Performance
needs to hire (and keep) skilled bike techs. This will probably be very
difficult to sustain, as Performance continues their retail store expansion.
It is a culture clash. Skilled bike techs are doing their own thing, cf. the
Performance homogenous corporate culture.

You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price, but
as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...

....America First Jay

Jay said:

"Ben Pfaff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ben Pfaff wrote:
> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
> permanent fix.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
first place? But, never mind.

Quoted message said:

I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
other than the dud wheel.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
shops and order a new wheel.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

I think you are expecting too much from a $400 bike.

Absolute [censored]! A good shop would have stress relieved and dialed
in the wheel after the first spoke broke, as "they've got an actual
rider." Strong rim, FWIW, one that you see on much more expensive
bikes.

Now run along, and throw some money at your problems.

Jay said:

You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price, but
as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...

If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
commuting at the better bike shops at any price.

If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
:-)
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

"landotter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay said:

"Ben Pfaff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

> Ben Pfaff wrote:
>> * Take the bike to a better bike shop (probably Chain
>> Reaction in Redwood City, the best bike shop I know)
>> and pay them to fix it, in the hope that it would be a
>> permanent fix.

Quoted message said:

> Of course, the question comes to mind: why didn't you go there in the
> first place? But, never mind.

Quoted message said:

I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid. I think that every
bike at Palo Alto Bicycles is well over $1000, except for maybe
track bikes. But the Schwinn World Avenue One is perfect for me,
other than the dud wheel.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the advice. Perhaps I'll just go to one of those
shops and order a new wheel.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

I think you are expecting too much from a $400 bike.

Absolute [censored]! A good shop would have stress relieved and dialed
in the wheel after the first spoke broke, as "they've got an actual
rider." Strong rim, FWIW, one that you see on much more expensive
bikes.

Now run along, and throw some money at your problems.

Have you actually been inside a Performance Bike retail store recently?
Ben's problem is not going to be solved by a forth trip to the shop.
Performance Bike retail stores should not be confused with 'good shops',
when it comes to repairs which require thought, and wheel building
experience.

"Ben Pfaff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay said:

You bought the $400 bike mostly based on the low initial purchase price,
but
as it turns out, you now probably need to go to a 'better bike shop' for
repairs. This is a variation of my familiar refrain...

If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
commuting at the better bike shops at any price.

If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
:-)
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

I believe, there are two factors which tend to be lost (or minimized) in
arguments like yours;

your time spent, and

your aggravation.

But it seems like the euphoria at (seemingly) having saved a few bucks
overweights everything else.

I don't have that gene.

J.

Ben Pfaff said:

If the "better bike shop" would sell what I was looking for, I'd
consider buying it. But I haven't seen bikes set up for
commuting at the better bike shops at any price.

There is no denying that this is part of the problem. Most of the shops
who employ someone who has _ever_ built a wheel simply do not sell bikes
for less than $1000 --- and I could almost say $2000. I know a few
exceptions, such as in Philly (and in Bethlehem), but they are the
exception.

Even most of the exceptions don't cater to commuters, and would lose
their shirts catering to commuters at $400 per bike.

Part of the issue is that we feel we can expect a decent bike for $400,
which would have bought a decent bike 20 years ago. We expect some sort
of economic miracle, such as airline tickets that cost no more than they
did 30 years ago, and we get what we deserve.

You want a bargain? Buy used. But know what you are doing before you buy.

--

David L. Johnson

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!

I'd have said earlier your best bet was to buy "The Bicycle Wheel,"
tension and stress-relieve the wheel with new spokes before. But
then,

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:02:57 -0700, Ben Pfaff <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If it costs me $100 for a new wheel, then $400 + $100 is still
half of the cheapest bike at the better bike shops, before
fenders, rack, and chain guard. And the chain guard probably
isn't available at any price. Oh, and it came with a bell too
:-)

This leads me to think that if Mike J. can build you a decent wheel
for $100, and you're willing to pay for it, that's your best bet.

After all, you get a working bike for only $500!

Pat

Email address works as is.

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:19:54 -0700 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben

Pfaff said:

I don't think that Chain Reaction or Palo Alto Bicycles sells any
bikes with chain guard, rack, and front and rear fenders.
Certainly not for $400, which is what I paid.

ya buy a fred bike, ya get fred wheels, built by a machine. ask
the shop for a new wheel, and then take it to a decent shop that
has a real human wheelbuilder and pay him to tune it for you
*before* you ride it.

actually, have him tune both wheels.

or buy a truing stand and learn how to tune wheels.