What's with the Waterproofs?

Nick Pedley said:

Why are suitable waterproof jackets with good working features so hard to
find at a reasonable price?

A good jacket costs money, 'cause it's spending money in the right paces
that makes it good!

Quoted message said:

All I want is

everything... ;-/

Quoted message said:

one which is breathable, has nice big pockets to put maps and
cameras into, is long enough to hang below my beltline and doesn't weigh a
ton.

How about one of these?
http://store.securehosting.com/stores/sh207371/shophome.php?itemcode=14

Quoted message said:

Where do the likes of Field and Trek go to create their big reviews of
thousands of jackets, half of them aren't even in the shops?

If they stocked thousands then they'd cost even more.

Quoted message said:

You can have a light one with two miniscule pockets, a heavy one which is
bulletproof, one with big pockets but only hangs down to your belly button,
one with 7 pockets all angled, velcroed or zipped so you can't open them
without dislocating your arm. You can have them in ludicrous pink, slime
green or 'orrible orange but not a decent colour like navy blue or dark red.

That Rab doesn't look the above problems apply... Track one down and see
if it fits well. At least it's a start.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, Nick Pedley
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Why are suitable waterproof jackets with good working features so hard to
find at a reasonable price?

I have a Mountain Equipment Dri-Lite plus jacket that appears to fit
your description. Light, breathable, two large pockets plus a map pocket
and goes half way down my derriere (size M and I am only 5'7" so on a
taller person it may not get as far). List price is £80 I think.

See this page for details (mine is the standard not the Alpine):

http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/waterproofs/drilite-plus.html

Mine was a second because the ME logo was upside down! Cost me £40 from
Magic Mountain in Glossop.

UK stockists:

http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/ukstockists/index.html

--

Dominic Sexton

Nick Pedley said:

All I want is one which is breathable, has nice big pockets to put maps and
cameras into, is long enough to hang below my beltline and doesn't weigh a
ton.

I use a Berghaus PacLite Trek ~£125/439g which fulfills criteria 1,3 &
4. Whether the pockets are big enough depends upon the size of your
camera.

2 x Hand warmer - 18x32
1 x Waterproof pocket - 15x32

My Canon PowerShot A70 and Yashica T4 fit in easily enough, but I
wouldn't want anything bulkier in the jacket.

Quoted message said:

Where do the likes of Field and Trek go to create their big reviews of
thousands of jackets, half of them aren't even in the shops?

I hate shops for this reason. I buy online and send it back if it's
not up to spec. It's easily worth the return postage compared with the
time and money I've wasted over the years looking for stuff that isn't
in stock in retail stores.

Quoted message said:

I would also like to be approached by clued up shop staff

Get your information from reviews and forums rather than from people
with an interest in selling stuff.

Daytona

Daytona said:

Get your information from reviews and forums rather than from people
with an interest in selling stuff.

But people with a genuine interest in customer service can be much
better than someone on a 'net forum. Compared to the average employee
at Tiso's I've probably seen far fewer jackets up close and personal on
a regular basis, for example. A /good/ shop where the staff know what's
what is IME well worth visiting.

Furthermore, the standard of review from A.N. Other Poster isn't
necessarily that great. They have a very singular context, often don't
have much experience of the numerous alternatives and often have a
vested interest in justifying the quality of their purchase to
themselves. That's not to say that such reviews are of no use, but they
need to have their limitations considered when reading them.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Daytona said:

Get your information from reviews and forums rather than from people
with an interest in selling stuff.

But people with a genuine interest in customer service can be much
better than someone on a 'net forum.

The problem is the time and effort spent finding someone who can give
such balanced, impartial information. I find it less time consuming,
easier and cheaper to get information from a number of internet posts
and reviews. Increasingly, knowledgable employees are using net forums
to help customers and potential customers and because the advice is
published on open forum it is open for discussion.

Quoted message said:

Compared to the average employee
at Tiso's I've probably seen far fewer jackets up close and personal on
a regular basis, for example.

Sure but they're not impartial, which renders their advice suspect.

Quoted message said:

Furthermore, the standard of review from A.N. Other Poster isn't
necessarily that great.

But it quickly allows you to get a consensus of opinion which, along
with reviews, allows you to draw up a shortlist.

Daytona

Daytona said:

The problem is the time and effort spent finding someone who can give
such balanced, impartial information.

But of course the search is something that only needs to be done once.

Quoted message said:

I find it less time consuming,
easier and cheaper to get information from a number of internet posts
and reviews.

Less time consuming collating a number of different sources of variable
reliability than one of well known reliability? Sorry, that just
doesn't make any sense.

Quoted message said:

Sure but they're not impartial, which renders their advice suspect.

/Nobody/ is impartial, as everyone will make subjective judgements.
Good reviewers, and good shop staff, are as impartial as they can be.
And good staff know that repeat business is the key to business, and
they don't get that by selling you rubbish.

Quoted message said:

But it quickly allows you to get a consensus of opinion which, along
with reviews, allows you to draw up a shortlist.

For certain values of "quickly", but if the bulk of the opinion isn't
worth much then having more of it isn't really an asset. Most people
are very bad equipment reviewers, is the bottom line. For example, if
you read OutdoorsMagic's guidelines on reviews then most stuff should be
3 star ("most products should fit this grade"😉, yet if you look through
the lists there is a disproportionate amount of 4 and 5 star reviews
with very few 3s in there. Something wrong with that picture.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Daytona said:

The problem is the time and effort spent finding someone who can give
such balanced, impartial information.

But of course the search is something that only needs to be done once.

Quoted message said:

I find it less time consuming,
easier and cheaper to get information from a number of internet posts
and reviews.

Less time consuming collating a number of different sources of variable
reliability than one of well known reliability? Sorry, that just
doesn't make any sense.

Travel time - I don't have a good source in my local or county town/s.
I place a review by someone in TGO above that of a shop assistant and
a single post from an unknown poster.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure but they're not impartial, which renders their advice suspect.

/Nobody/ is impartial, as everyone will make subjective judgements.

Nothing stops them from making the basis of their finding clear.

Quoted message said:

Good reviewers, and good shop staff, are as impartial as they can be.
And good staff know that repeat business is the key to business, and
they don't get that by selling you rubbish.

Quoted message said:

But it quickly allows you to get a consensus of opinion which, along
with reviews, allows you to draw up a shortlist.

For certain values of "quickly", but if the bulk of the opinion isn't
worth much then having more of it isn't really an asset. Most people
are very bad equipment reviewers, is the bottom line. For example, if
you read OutdoorsMagic's guidelines on reviews then most stuff should be
3 star ("most products should fit this grade"😉, yet if you look through
the lists there is a disproportionate amount of 4 and 5 star reviews
with very few 3s in there. Something wrong with that picture.

It's all about the weight you give to various sources. Giving greater
weight to what's written rather than a number of stars is sensible.

Daytona

Nick Pedley said:

Why are suitable waterproof jackets with good working features so hard to
find at a reasonable price?

All I want is one which is breathable, has nice big pockets to put maps and
cameras into, is long enough to hang below my beltline and doesn't weigh a
ton. I've been through 6 different stores and the sub £150 range is so
limited it's unbelievable.
Where do the likes of Field and Trek go to create their big reviews of
thousands of jackets, half of them aren't even in the shops?
You can have a light one with two miniscule pockets, a heavy one which is
bulletproof, one with big pockets but only hangs down to your belly button,
one with 7 pockets all angled, velcroed or zipped so you can't open them
without dislocating your arm. You can have them in ludicrous pink, slime
green or 'orrible orange but not a decent colour like navy blue or dark red.

I would also like to be approached by clued up shop staff instead of being
ignored for 15 minutes and then asked 'You alright there' from the far side
of the shop, but that's a separate thread in itself...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

Nick

I like buying jackets at sales.

As a result, I now have 4 jackets that will last at least 10 more years.
All were bought at bargain discount. My Spreyway cost £90, but the
retail was £180 - coz the firm had a fire and it had a bit of smoke
smelling from it - but no damage at all.

Another Goretex jacket cost £40 quid coz it was a salesman's sample.

I just couldn't bare thinking about paying £150+ for a jacket.

Jhimmy

Nick Pedley said:

Why are suitable waterproof jackets with good working features so hard to
find at a reasonable price?

I would seriously consider the Paramo range, especially the Alta II jacket.
This stuff is - by a long way - the best stuff to wear in a torrential
downpour.

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...

Daytona said:

Travel time - I don't have a good source in my local or county town/s.

But you probably don't have a major hillwalking venue there either.
There's no shortage of opportunities to purchase and try equipment
nearer to your use areas. I've sent a lot of custom Braemar Mountain's
way over the years, but I don't drive 65 miles any time I want anything.

Quoted message said:

I place a review by someone in TGO above that of a shop assistant and
a single post from an unknown poster.

As do I in Chris's case, because I think he's very good at reviewing.
But it's still from his perspective rather than mine. I prefer walking
in Tracksters, he doesn't. Both of us are right for our own cases.
Who's right in someone else's?

Quoted message said:

Nothing stops them from making the basis of their finding clear.

Then it's a shame so many people are so bad at it. And the same goes
for someone in a shop too. They typically use equipment as well as
selling it, of course.

Quoted message said:

It's all about the weight you give to various sources. Giving greater
weight to what's written rather than a number of stars is sensible.

But the stars are informed by what's written, and what's written is that
rather more than 50% is much better than average.

I'm not saying your methods are bad, just that they aren't a clearly
superior method with all the aces. For example, if you only try on
stuff that gets posted to you and it fits /okay/, you won't send it back
and will never find if another product fits you much *better*.
For myself, I use a mixture of sources, and I wouldn't like to rule any
of them out.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Nick Pedley said:

Why are suitable waterproof jackets with good working features so hard to
find at a reasonable price?

All I want is one which is breathable, has nice big pockets to put maps and
cameras into, is long enough to hang below my beltline and doesn't weigh a
ton. I've been through 6 different stores and the sub £150 range is so
limited it's unbelievable.
Where do the likes of Field and Trek go to create their big reviews of
thousands of jackets, half of them aren't even in the shops?
You can have a light one with two miniscule pockets, a heavy one which is
bulletproof, one with big pockets but only hangs down to your belly button,
one with 7 pockets all angled, velcroed or zipped so you can't open them
without dislocating your arm. You can have them in ludicrous pink, slime
green or 'orrible orange but not a decent colour like navy blue or dark red.

Here's a Berghaus Paclite (very nice jacket) reduced to £127.49. Check
Google for reviews.

http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Berghaus-Paclite-Jacket.html

Quoted message said:

I would also like to be approached by clued up shop staff instead of being
ignored for 15 minutes and then asked 'You alright there' from the far side
of the shop, but that's a separate thread in itself...

Amen to that... start the thread: I'm sure we've all experienced it
over and over again... 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"The most important job is not to be governor, or first lady in my case."
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Nick Pedley said:

Why are suitable waterproof jackets with good working features so hard to
find at a reasonable price?

All I want is one which is breathable, has nice big pockets to put maps and
cameras into, is long enough to hang below my beltline and doesn't weigh a

Incidentally, try hanging your camera from the waistband (or other
convenient strap) of your rucksack. If it's in your pocket it can't be
particularly big, and there are lots of padded cases around. That way
it's immediately available - I've not had a problem with mine using it
that way for well over a decade.

Good luck 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"The future will be better tomorrow."
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Peter Clinch said:

Daytona said:

The problem is the time and effort spent finding someone who can give
such balanced, impartial information.

But of course the search is something that only needs to be done once.

What if there isn't such a shop locally? There isn't one where I live,
and I suspect there won't be one where most people live, unless they
live in a very large city.

I've learned to rely on myself for these things, as well as the
opinions of people online and in magazines who I've come to trust over
time. People just dipping in, on the other hand, take pot luck.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

//SigChanger V2.1.0 - Variable signatures

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:00:02 GMT, Jhimmy <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I just couldn't bare thinking about paying £150+ for a jacket.

What a pity!
;-)

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"Will the highways on the internet become more few?."
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:54:12 GMT, Andy Howell
<andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I would seriously consider the Paramo range, especially the Alta II jacket.
This stuff is - by a long way - the best stuff to wear in a torrential
downpour.

<fx: gasp!...>

<Trots away at break-neck pace to avoid firefight...>

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"You cannot be President of the United States if you don't have faith.
Remember Lincoln, going to his knees in time of trial and the Civil War
and all that stuff. You can't be. And we are blessed. So don't feel sorry
for -- don't cry for me, Argentina."
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].c

Peewiglet said:

Here's a Berghaus Paclite (very nice jacket) reduced to £127.49. Check
Google for reviews.

http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Berghaus-Paclite-Jacket.html

Too short though ? Hence my suggestion of the longer Trek variant.

Press and user reviews on the Berghaus website
<URL:http://www.berghaus.com/the_gear/show_products.asp?product_hierarchy_id=24&prod_hierarchy_lev1=24&prod_hierarchy_lev2=24&prod_hierarchy_lev4=none&submit1=--+Display+Products+-->
also on TGO once you register (free)
<URL:http://www.tgomagazine.co.uk/>

Daytona

On 20/8/05 19:02, in article [email hidden],

Peewiglet said:

Amen to that... start the thread: I'm sure we've all experienced it
over and over again... 🙂

In general, I find that good walking shop staff are pretty good. Special
mention to Field and Trek in Maiden Lane, Covent Garden, to the Manager of
Snow and Rock in Birmingham and to the ever wonderful Stewart Cunningham in
Betwys-y-Coed.

Only yesterday I found myself buying an Osprey Atmos pack and having a
rather delightful hour long conversation with the manager about packs,
appropriate pack sizes for different types of walks, the joys of the Malvern
Hills and Snowdonia and much more besides.

I suppose, though, this might be why other customers are left on their own
for so long !!!

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...

On 20/8/05 19:06, in article [email hidden],

Peewiglet said:

I've learned to rely on myself for these things, as well as the
opinions of people online and in magazines who I've come to trust over
time. People just dipping in, on the other hand, take pot luck.

Good points these. Even in a relatively big place like Birmingham there is
not a great choice in terms of walking shops. (I got quite excited last year
when Field & Trek took over the YHA shop but it is now closing down). I, for
one, would rather make up my own mind after reading on-line comments from
real users than listening to some Saturday assistant pretending to be a
walker ...

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...

On 20/8/05 19:09, in article [email hidden],

Peewiglet said:

<Trots away at break-neck pace to avoid firefight...>

One now faces a terrible problem. I really don't think that there is any
other Paramo gear that I need! This kind of renders walking shopping
redundant!

Mind you - and thinking about the onset of winter - these gaiters are
beginning to look a bit grubby. Surely Paramo ones are better?

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...