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What's eating Stephen Barrett?

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Ilena Rose
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  1. What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July 1998
    Alternative Medicine Digest

    He says he's using science to protect the public from
    expensive fad diagnoses, but if this "quackbuster" has his
    way, the public will have no recourse but conventional
    medicine for their health problems.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------

    RECENTLY, I set myself the exercise of trying to understand
    what motivates a self­proclaimed "quackbuster" to write a
    book debunking an entire field of medicine. A "quackbuster,"
    as we've come to know over the years, is someone who is
    dedicated to casting aspersions on alternative medicine,
    regardless of whether there is any factual basis. As
    alternative medicine continues to grow more popular – an
    estimated 42% of Americans now use it – the "quackbusters"
    are growing more clamorous in their denunciations of our
    field. They have to be – they're almost a minority view.

    Highly visible among these self­appointed "quackbusters" is
    Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, author of
    numerous books, and spokesman for the "Quackwatch"
    community. In his latest book, Chemical Sensitivity: The
    Truth About Environmental Illness, coauthored with Ronald E.
    Gots, M.D., Ph.D (Prometheus Books, 1998), Barrett goes
    after all the illness categories for which diet and chemical
    exposure are "falsely blamed."

    Multiple chemical sensitivity, sick building syndrome,
    food­related hyperactivity, mercury amalgam toxicity,
    candidiasis hyperactivity, Gulf War syndrome – these are all
    costly misbeliefs and fad diagnoses, says Barrett. "Many
    Americans believe that exposure to common foods and
    chemicals makes them ill," he says. "This book is about
    people who hold such beliefs but are wrong."

    Not only are patients wrong, Barrett says, they are
    "financially exploited as well as mistreated." They are
    duped by "far­fetched" notions and "dubious claims," by headline-
    crazed media and "toxic television," and by "physicians who
    use questionable diagnostic and treatment methods."

    Patients presume they are being made allergic or toxic or
    even being poisoned by the mass of modern chemicals,
    cosmetics, cleaning agents, drugs, and other human-made
    substances. They are mistaken, says Barrett. Their
    misbeliefs are especially hard to understand, Barrett says,
    "at a time when our food supply is the world's safest and
    our antipollution program is the best we've ever had."

    Patients' symptoms are mental (psychosomatic) in origin –
    "they react to stress by developing multiple symptoms."
    Their symptoms are not caused by chemicals or dietary
    factors, he says. In fact, Barrett suggests that some
    patients are "hysterical," others are "paranoid," and the
    rest have "certain psychological factors" that "predispose"
    them to "develop symptoms" and to seek out "questionable"
    doctors (meaning alternative medicine practitioners) who
    will attach a ("not scientifically recognized"😉 disease
    label to them.

    Regarding Gulf War syndrome, for example, Barrett declares:
    "It provides a feeding trough for serious scientists, since
    funding is abundant, and for every charlatan with a
    newsworthy theory." On the matter of the dangers of mercury
    fillings, he states: "The false diagnosis of mercury­amalgam
    toxicity is potentially very harmful and reflects extremely
    poor judgment."

    For the most part, of the illnesses listed above, nearly all
    are mere "labels" rather than legitimate illness conditions,
    asserts Barrett; they're not caused by foods or chemicals;
    there are no "scientific"" studies conclusively proving the
    association of diet, chemicals, and illness; and we are best
    advised to dismiss them out of hand, he says.

    In most cases and for most of the illnesses commonly
    associated with chemical sensitivity, Barrett says the mass
    of mistaken patients would be better off seeking "mental
    help" from a psychiatrist or other "mental health
    practitioner." Alternative medicine physicians and
    especially "clinical ecologists" (the old name for
    practitioners of environmental medicine, which links
    exposures to toxic substances with health conditions) should
    be chastised, investigated, put on notice, and if possible,
    put out of business, says Barrett.

    Most of what Barrett claims can be refuted, easily and
    decisively. That's not my intention here. I'm more
    interested in looking at the bigger picture – what is
    Barrett really saying amidst his quackbusting bluster, and
    why?

    Barrett appears to be saying that the typical American
    patient is stupid, hysterical or paranoid, easily duped, and
    generally incapable of making a rational, correct medical
    decision on their own. The patient is mistaken and wrong in
    thinking their multiple symptoms have any connection to the
    foods they eat or the environmental chemicals to which they
    are exposed. The media is irresponsible and not to be
    trusted as an information source about medicine, especially
    about alternatives. Doctors who practice alternative
    medicine are unscientific, opportunistic frauds or quacks,
    peddling flawed or junk science

    So who can you turn to – who is not on Barrett's hit list?
    Conventional doctors. Barrett doesn't say this outright,
    but it's the only logical conclusion. His message is the
    old and familiar one from the l950s: the (conventional)
    doctor knows best.

    I next pondered what could be the purpose of this book. What
    could be the result of debunking the connection between
    foods, chemicals, cosmetics, and drugs with the varieties of
    environmental illness (mentioned above) now afflicting
    millions of patients. Why does Barrett (and his colleagues)
    so dislike alternative medicine? What's eating him that he
    must disparage the field at every opportunity?

    The purpose has to be this: to corral this mass of suffering
    "confused" patients into the treatment pen of conventional
    medicine. But here Barrett's rationale collapses. The
    patients end up with nothing.

    Surely no person suffering unexplained allergies or general
    toxicity wants to be told they're stupid, mistaken, and
    ought to have their head examined. And surely no patient who
    has abandoned conventional medicine (because the one or two
    dozen doctors they consulted hadn't a clue as to how to help
    them) would be interested in Barrett's thesis. It is
    genuinely hard to imagine how a suffering patient could
    actually be persuaded by Barrett to dismiss alternative
    approaches when the conventional ones were not useful, or
    even worse, were harmful.

    But let's say, despite these reservations, patients allowed
    themselves to be herded into Barrett's allopathic corral.
    There would be nothing there for them. Conventional medicine
    has no cure or treatment for these illnesses. In fact, as
    Barrett repeatedly points out, for the most part,
    conventional medicine does not even validate the existence
    of these illness categories and regards a diagnosis of such
    illnesses as bogus medicine. Of course, Barrett does offer
    patients "mental help."

    Let's look at this set­up carefully. Barrett and his
    "quackbusting" colleagues say they are working to protect
    the public against health frauds. They don't want the public
    to waste its money on "sham" treatments that don't work. The
    false labels of multiple chemical sensitivity, environmental
    illness, and the rest, do the public a "disservice," Barrett
    says, and seeking treatment for these wastes the financial
    resources of insurance companies, employers, and other third
    party reimbursers.

    But since conventional medicine has nothing to offer
    patients who "believe" they are suffering physical distress
    from these conditions, the patients, in effect, are left on
    their own to suffer some more. Barrett's plan seems to be to
    corral these misguided patients into the conventional
    medicine pen so he can dissuade them of their mistaken
    notions regarding their illness and make them "see" that
    it's all psychosomatic.

    Clearly the patients do not benefit at all from this
    scenario, so who does? The makers of drugs, petrochemicals,
    cosmetics, synthetic food additives, pesticides, prepared
    foods – in short, the massive food and chemical industry of
    North America benefits. They are no longer held accountable
    as causal factors in multiple symptom illnesses. They are
    let off the hook. They can proceed with business as usual.
    There are no poisons in their products. (See the cartoon
    about "quackbusters" by Harley Schwadron in "The Politics of
    Medicine" section, this issue, p.
    106.)

    In the paradox of "quackbusting," the quackbusters say
    they're protecting public health, but in fact, they're
    abandoning the public to their own suffering to protect the
    financial interests of conventional medicine, which has no
    interest in or ability to produce benefits for these
    conditions. The "quackbusters" say they're serving the
    public, but the truth is they're grossly disserving
    patients. Thanks to Barrett's remarkable chemical
    insensitivity, a great many patients will be left to suffer
    on their own without any diagnosis or treatment, except
    perhaps another round of Prozac on the house.

    Reproduced with permission Alternative Medicine Digest, July
    1998 ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE ONLINE

  2. "Ilena Rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July
    1998 Alternative Medicine Digest

    He says he's using science to protect the public from
    expensive fad diagnoses, but if this "quackbuster" has his
    way, the public will have no recourse but conventional
    medicine for their health problems.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    ----------------


    ------

    Quoted message said:


    RECENTLY, I set myself the exercise of trying to
    understand what motivates a self­proclaimed "quackbuster"
    to write a book debunking an entire field of medicine. A
    "quackbuster," as we've come to know over the years, is
    someone who is dedicated to casting aspersions on
    alternative medicine, regardless of whether there is any
    factual basis. As alternative medicine continues to grow
    more popular - an estimated 42% of Americans now use it -
    the "quackbusters" are growing more clamorous in their
    denunciations of our field. They have to be - they're
    almost a minority view.

    Highly visible among these self­appointed "quackbusters"
    is Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, author
    of numerous books, and spokesman for the "Quackwatch"
    community. In his latest book, Chemical Sensitivity: The
    Truth About Environmental Illness, coauthored with Ronald
    E. Gots, M.D., Ph.D (Prometheus Books, 1998), Barrett goes
    after all the illness categories for which diet and
    chemical exposure are "falsely blamed."

    Multiple chemical sensitivity, sick building syndrome,
    food­related hyperactivity, mercury amalgam toxicity,
    candidiasis hyperactivity, Gulf War syndrome - these are
    all costly misbeliefs and fad diagnoses, says Barrett.
    "Many Americans believe that exposure to common foods and
    chemicals makes them ill," he says. "This book is about
    people who hold such beliefs but are wrong."

    Not only are patients wrong, Barrett says, they are
    "financially exploited as well as mistreated." They are
    duped by "far­fetched" notions and "dubious claims," by
    headline-crazed media and "toxic television," and by
    "physicians who use questionable diagnostic and treatment
    methods."

    Patients presume they are being made allergic or toxic or
    even being poisoned by the mass of modern chemicals,
    cosmetics, cleaning agents, drugs, and other human-made
    substances. They are mistaken, says Barrett. Their
    misbeliefs are especially hard to understand, Barrett
    says, "at a time when our food supply is the world's
    safest and our antipollution program is the best we've
    ever had."

    Patients' symptoms are mental (psychosomatic) in origin -
    "they react to stress by developing multiple symptoms."
    Their symptoms are not caused by chemicals or dietary
    factors, he says. In fact, Barrett suggests that some
    patients are "hysterical," others are "paranoid," and the
    rest have "certain psychological factors" that
    "predispose" them to "develop symptoms" and to seek out
    "questionable" doctors (meaning alternative medicine
    practitioners) who will attach a ("not scientifically
    recognized"😉 disease label to them.

    Regarding Gulf War syndrome, for example, Barrett
    declares: "It provides a feeding trough for serious
    scientists, since funding is abundant, and for every
    charlatan with a newsworthy theory." On the matter of the
    dangers of mercury fillings, he states: "The false
    diagnosis of mercury­amalgam toxicity is potentially very
    harmful and reflects extremely poor judgment."

    For the most part, of the illnesses listed above, nearly
    all are mere "labels" rather than legitimate illness
    conditions, asserts Barrett; they're not caused by foods
    or chemicals; there are no "scientific"" studies
    conclusively proving the association of diet, chemicals,
    and illness; and we are best advised to dismiss them out
    of hand, he says.

    In most cases and for most of the illnesses commonly
    associated with chemical sensitivity, Barrett says the
    mass of mistaken patients would be better off seeking
    "mental help" from a psychiatrist or other "mental health
    practitioner." Alternative medicine physicians and
    especially "clinical ecologists" (the old name for
    practitioners of environmental medicine, which links
    exposures to toxic substances with health conditions)
    should be chastised, investigated, put on notice, and if
    possible, put out of business, says Barrett.

    Most of what Barrett claims can be refuted, easily and
    decisively. That's not my intention here. I'm more
    interested in looking at the bigger picture - what is
    Barrett really saying amidst his quackbusting bluster,
    and why?

    Barrett appears to be saying that the typical American
    patient is stupid, hysterical or paranoid, easily duped,
    and generally incapable of making a rational, correct
    medical decision on their own. The patient is mistaken and
    wrong in thinking their multiple symptoms have any
    connection to the foods they eat or the environmental
    chemicals to which they are exposed. The media is
    irresponsible and not to be trusted as an information
    source about medicine, especially about alternatives.
    Doctors who practice alternative medicine are
    unscientific, opportunistic frauds or quacks, peddling
    flawed or junk science

    So who can you turn to - who is not on Barrett's hit list?
    Conventional doctors. Barrett doesn't say this outright,
    but it's the only logical conclusion. His message is the
    old and familiar one from the l950s: the (conventional)
    doctor knows best.

    I next pondered what could be the purpose of this book.
    What could be the result of debunking the connection
    between foods, chemicals, cosmetics, and drugs with the
    varieties of environmental illness (mentioned above) now
    afflicting millions of patients. Why does Barrett (and his
    colleagues) so dislike alternative medicine? What's eating
    him that he must disparage the field at every opportunity?

    The purpose has to be this: to corral this mass of
    suffering "confused" patients into the treatment pen of
    conventional medicine. But here Barrett's rationale
    collapses. The patients end up with nothing.

    Surely no person suffering unexplained allergies or
    general toxicity wants to be told they're stupid,
    mistaken, and ought to have their head examined. And
    surely no patient who has abandoned conventional medicine
    (because the one or two dozen doctors they consulted
    hadn't a clue as to how to help them) would be interested
    in Barrett's thesis. It is genuinely hard to imagine how a
    suffering patient could actually be persuaded by Barrett
    to dismiss alternative approaches when the conventional
    ones were not useful, or even worse, were harmful.

    But let's say, despite these reservations, patients
    allowed themselves to be herded into Barrett's allopathic
    corral. There would be nothing there for them.
    Conventional medicine has no cure or treatment for these
    illnesses.

    Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever that alternative
    medicine has a cure or treatment for such illnesses. It
    probably makes a lot of those who think they have MCS worse,
    by encouraging the extreme avoidance and elimination
    measures some such patients employ. Social isolation and
    malnutrition can ensue.

    Secondly, the better alternative practitioners are well
    aware that such illnesses are largely perpetuated by
    psychological factors. One who specialises in this field
    told me of one of her patients where she had to change rooms
    three times during her consultation because of perceived
    odours despite the practitioner's necessarily pristine
    practising environment.

    She agreed with me that it is mostly a psychosomatic
    condition. Taking a "holistic" approach to the illness is a
    merely polite way of saying the same, allowing the
    practitioner to approach psychological aspects in a less
    threatening manner. Good doctors do the same..

    Lastly, doctors have had considerable success with such
    patients by demonstrating that many or most of the supposed
    chemical senstivities are spurious, through blinded
    exposures. That offers more hope of real cure for the
    patient than the prospect that they are going to be forever
    tortured by chemicals, or that they are going to always have
    to take stacks of herbs and supplements .and chelate in
    order to -------- well, it is never made clear what taking
    additional chemicals is going to do for this condition.

    This is not to say that real sensitivies to individual
    chemicals can occur. Those labelled as MCS have different
    characteristics.

    Peter Moran

  3. "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Ilena Rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But let's say, despite these reservations, patients
    allowed themselves to be herded into Barrett's
    allopathic corral. There would be nothing there for
    them. Conventional medicine has no cure or treatment for
    these illnesses.

    Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever that alternative
    medicine has a cure or treatment for such illnesses. It
    probably makes a lot of those


    who

    Quoted message said:

    think they have MCS worse, by encouraging the extreme
    avoidance and elimination measures some such patients
    employ. Social isolation and malnutrition can ensue.

    Actutally many current conventional treatments started out
    as folk medicine ( herbal, alternatives ) and there is
    evidence of some basic principles in 'unconventional'
    schools of medicine. There is no advantage in narrowing the
    field of choice into one rigid base which has been shown
    over and over to be motivated by profit margins, more than
    health issues. And the patient has to be involved in his own
    health and that should involve freedom of choice to
    determine what works best for him. Self styled authorities
    like Barrett do more harm than the people he claims to be
    saving us from.

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ilena Rose said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July
    1998 Alternative Medicine Digest

    Perhaps he's outraged by the bogus treatments and
    unproven "remedies" sold by altie scammers who prey on
    desperate patients?

    [Snip]

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
    |you inconvenience me with questions?"

  5. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: What's eating Stephen Barrett? From: "Peter
    Moran" [email hidden] Date: 4/5/2004 1:55 PM Pacific
    Standard Time Message-id: <4071d5db$0$302$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

    "Ilena Rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July
    1998 Alternative Medicine Digest

    He says he's using science to protect the public from
    expensive fad diagnoses, but if this "quackbuster" has
    his way, the public will have no recourse but
    conventional medicine for their health problems.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------


    ------

    Quoted message said:


    RECENTLY, I set myself the exercise of trying to
    understand what motivates a self­proclaimed "quackbuster"
    to write a book debunking an entire field of medicine. A
    "quackbuster," as we've come to know over the years, is
    someone who is dedicated to casting aspersions on
    alternative medicine, regardless of whether there is any
    factual basis. As alternative medicine continues to grow
    more popular - an estimated 42% of Americans now use it -
    the "quackbusters" are growing more clamorous in their
    denunciations of our field. They have to be - they're
    almost a minority view.

    Highly visible among these self­appointed "quackbusters"
    is Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, author
    of numerous books, and spokesman for the "Quackwatch"
    community. In his latest book, Chemical Sensitivity: The
    Truth About Environmental Illness, coauthored with Ronald
    E. Gots, M.D., Ph.D (Prometheus Books, 1998), Barrett
    goes after all the illness categories for which diet and
    chemical exposure are "falsely blamed."

    Multiple chemical sensitivity, sick building syndrome,
    food­related hyperactivity, mercury amalgam toxicity,
    candidiasis hyperactivity, Gulf War syndrome - these are
    all costly misbeliefs and fad diagnoses, says Barrett.
    "Many Americans believe that exposure to common foods and
    chemicals makes them ill," he says. "This book is about
    people who hold such beliefs but are wrong."

    Not only are patients wrong, Barrett says, they are
    "financially exploited as well as mistreated." They are
    duped by "far­fetched" notions and "dubious claims," by
    headline-crazed media and "toxic television," and by
    "physicians who use questionable diagnostic and treatment
    methods."

    Patients presume they are being made allergic or toxic or
    even being poisoned by the mass of modern chemicals,
    cosmetics, cleaning agents, drugs, and other human-made
    substances. They are mistaken, says Barrett. Their
    misbeliefs are especially hard to understand, Barrett
    says, "at a time when our food supply is the world's
    safest and our antipollution program is the best we've
    ever had."

    Patients' symptoms are mental (psychosomatic) in origin -
    "they react to stress by developing multiple symptoms."
    Their symptoms are not caused by chemicals or dietary
    factors, he says. In fact, Barrett suggests that some
    patients are "hysterical," others are "paranoid," and the
    rest have "certain psychological factors" that
    "predispose" them to "develop symptoms" and to seek out
    "questionable" doctors (meaning alternative medicine
    practitioners) who will attach a ("not scientifically
    recognized"😉 disease label to them.

    Regarding Gulf War syndrome, for example, Barrett
    declares: "It provides a feeding trough for serious
    scientists, since funding is abundant, and for every
    charlatan with a newsworthy theory." On the matter of the
    dangers of mercury fillings, he states: "The false
    diagnosis of mercury­amalgam toxicity is potentially very
    harmful and reflects extremely poor judgment."

    For the most part, of the illnesses listed above, nearly
    all are mere "labels" rather than legitimate illness
    conditions, asserts Barrett; they're not caused by foods
    or chemicals; there are no "scientific"" studies
    conclusively proving the association of diet, chemicals,
    and illness; and we are best advised to dismiss them out
    of hand, he says.

    In most cases and for most of the illnesses commonly
    associated with chemical sensitivity, Barrett says the
    mass of mistaken patients would be better off seeking
    "mental help" from a psychiatrist or other "mental health
    practitioner." Alternative medicine physicians and
    especially "clinical ecologists" (the old name for
    practitioners of environmental medicine, which links
    exposures to toxic substances with health conditions)
    should be chastised, investigated, put on notice, and if
    possible, put out of business, says Barrett.

    Most of what Barrett claims can be refuted, easily and
    decisively. That's not my intention here. I'm more
    interested in looking at the bigger picture - what is
    Barrett really saying amidst his quackbusting bluster,
    and why?

    Barrett appears to be saying that the typical American
    patient is stupid, hysterical or paranoid, easily duped,
    and generally incapable of making a rational, correct
    medical decision on their own. The patient is mistaken
    and wrong in thinking their multiple symptoms have any
    connection to the foods they eat or the environmental
    chemicals to which they are exposed. The media is
    irresponsible and not to be trusted as an information
    source about medicine, especially about alternatives.
    Doctors who practice alternative medicine are
    unscientific, opportunistic frauds or quacks, peddling
    flawed or junk science

    So who can you turn to - who is not on Barrett's hit
    list? Conventional doctors. Barrett doesn't say this
    outright, but it's the only logical conclusion. His
    message is the old and familiar one from the l950s: the
    (conventional) doctor knows best.

    I next pondered what could be the purpose of this book.
    What could be the result of debunking the connection
    between foods, chemicals, cosmetics, and drugs with the
    varieties of environmental illness (mentioned above) now
    afflicting millions of patients. Why does Barrett (and
    his colleagues) so dislike alternative medicine? What's
    eating him that he must disparage the field at every
    opportunity?

    The purpose has to be this: to corral this mass of
    suffering "confused" patients into the treatment pen of
    conventional medicine. But here Barrett's rationale
    collapses. The patients end up with nothing.

    Surely no person suffering unexplained allergies or
    general toxicity wants to be told they're stupid,
    mistaken, and ought to have their head examined. And
    surely no patient who has abandoned conventional medicine
    (because the one or two dozen doctors they consulted
    hadn't a clue as to how to help them) would be interested
    in Barrett's thesis. It is genuinely hard to imagine how
    a suffering patient could actually be persuaded by
    Barrett to dismiss alternative approaches when the
    conventional ones were not useful, or even worse, were
    harmful.

    But let's say, despite these reservations, patients
    allowed themselves to be herded into Barrett's allopathic
    corral. There would be nothing there for them.
    Conventional medicine has no cure or treatment for these
    illnesses.

    Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever that alternative
    medicine has a cure or treatment for such illnesses. It
    probably makes a lot of those who think they have MCS
    worse, by encouraging the extreme avoidance and elimination
    measures some such patients employ. Social isolation and
    malnutrition can ensue.

    Peter can't see any evidence unless it comes from
    organized medicine.

    There *IS* evidence, he denies it.

    nettally.comhome.htm
    ===
    Sufferers of Gulf War Syndrome have reported that some of
    the following therapies have helped reduce symptoms and
    chronic pain:

    Traditional Chinese Medicine - herbs & accupuncture Magnetic
    Therapy (specifically mattress pads) Kumbucha Tea Meditation
    and Visualization Chiropractic Therapeutic Massage Bio
    Feedback Homeopathy Vitamins & Nutritional Supplements

    home.earthlink.netindex.html

    I. DENTAL AMALGAM FILLINGS PAGE- documents high common
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    doctors; plus environmental effects of amalgam that
    affect everyone. (over 1500 peer-reviewed medical study
    or Gov't Agency references documenting mechanisms by
    which mercury from amalgam causes over 30 chronic health
    conditions)

    lichtenberg.dkexperience after amalgam removal.
    htm

    lichtenberg.dksymptoms before and after proper.
    htm

    rmdentalcentre.comarticle.cfm

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    cqs.comamalgam.htm

  6. "Ian St. John" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:4071d5db$0$302$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Ilena Rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But let's say, despite these reservations, patients
    allowed themselves to be herded into Barrett's
    allopathic corral. There would be nothing there for
    them. Conventional medicine has no cure or treatment
    for these illnesses.

    Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever that
    alternative medicine has a cure or treatment for such
    illnesses. It probably makes a lot of those


    who

    Quoted message said:

    think they have MCS worse, by encouraging the extreme
    avoidance and elimination measures some such patients
    employ. Social isolation and malnutrition can ensue.

    Actutally many current conventional treatments started
    out as folk


    medicine

    Quoted message said:

    ( herbal, alternatives ) and there is evidence of some
    basic principles in 'unconventional' schools of medicine.
    There is no advantage in narrowing


    the

    Quoted message said:

    field of choice into one rigid base which has been shown
    over and over to


    be

    Quoted message said:

    motivated by profit margins, more than health issues. And
    the patient has


    to

    Quoted message said:

    be involved in his own health and that should involve
    freedom of choice to determine what works best for him.
    Self styled authorities like Barrett do more harm than the
    people he claims to be saving us from.

    Talking in generalities about anything to do with medicine
    is useless. The above sounds quite reasonable until you
    start to ask "what specific basic principles" have evidence
    for them? Does "freedom of choice" operate when a fraudulent
    treatment is being offered along with frank lies as to its
    efficacy? Stick to specifics in any answer.

    Blind Freddie can see that alternative medicine is riddled
    with fraud and delusion, even though much of it is as
    harmless and "let's pretend" as a cosmetic commercial.

    There are a few modalities for important illnesses that may
    be the subject of argument, and which are promoted by
    reasonably sensible and sincere personages. Are they enough
    to make it unreasonable for Barrett and others to be trying
    to warn or inform people about the rest? Most of what
    Barrett has to say is very moderate and carefully
    researched. He rarely commits himself to outright
    allegations of quackery, merely giving what information he
    has and only what he can confirm.

    Peter Moran

  7. Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ilena Rose said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July
    1998 Alternative Medicine Digest



    Perhaps he should be outraged by the bogus Medical
    treatments and unproven "remedies" sold by medical scammers
    who prey on desperate patients?

    Quoted message said:


    [Snip]

    I thought a little rewording was in order.....

  8. I notice Barret attacks Dr Rath for claims about remissions
    in cancer with vitamins, but steers clear away from his
    claims about heart disease. I wonder why? Anth

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40722597$0$26951$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:


    "Ian St. John" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message



    news:4071d5db$0$302$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Ilena Rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    > But let's say, despite these reservations, patients
    > allowed


    themselves

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > to be herded into Barrett's allopathic corral. There
    > would be


    nothing

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > there for them. Conventional medicine has no cure or
    > treatment for these illnesses.

    Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever that
    alternative medicine has


    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cure or treatment for such illnesses. It probably
    makes a lot of


    those

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    who

    Quoted message said:

    think they have MCS worse, by encouraging the extreme
    avoidance and elimination measures some such patients
    employ. Social isolation


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    malnutrition can ensue.

    Actutally many current conventional treatments started
    out as folk


    medicine

    Quoted message said:

    ( herbal, alternatives ) and there is evidence of some
    basic principles


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    'unconventional' schools of medicine. There is no
    advantage in narrowing


    the

    Quoted message said:

    field of choice into one rigid base which has been shown
    over and over


    to

    Quoted message said:

    be

    Quoted message said:

    motivated by profit margins, more than health issues.
    And the patient


    has

    Quoted message said:

    to

    Quoted message said:

    be involved in his own health and that should involve
    freedom of choice


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    determine what works best for him. Self styled
    authorities like Barrett


    do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more harm than the people he claims to be saving
    us from.

    Talking in generalities about anything to do with medicine
    is useless. The above sounds quite reasonable until you
    start to ask "what specific basic principles" have
    evidence for them? Does "freedom of choice"


    operate

    Quoted message said:

    when a fraudulent treatment is being offered along with
    frank lies as to


    its

    Quoted message said:

    efficacy? Stick to specifics in any answer.

    Blind Freddie can see that alternative medicine is riddled
    with fraud and delusion, even though much of it is as
    harmless and "let's pretend" as a cosmetic commercial.

    There are a few modalities for important illnesses that
    may be the subject of argument, and which are promoted by
    reasonably sensible and sincere personages. Are they
    enough to make it unreasonable for Barrett and others to
    be trying to warn or inform people about the rest? Most of


    what

    Quoted message said:

    Barrett has to say is very moderate and carefully
    researched. He rarely commits himself to outright
    allegations of quackery, merely giving what information he
    has and only what he can confirm.

    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:


  9. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (M) said:

    Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<orac-
    [email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ilena Rose said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July
    1998 Alternative Medicine Digest



    Perhaps he should be outraged by the bogus Medical
    treatments and unproven "remedies" sold by medical
    scammers who prey on desperate patients?

    Quoted message said:


    [Snip]

    I thought a little rewording was in order.....

    Actually, my wording was correct the first time. Perhaps
    he's outraged by the pseudoscientific and pseudomedical
    "remedies" pushed by alties.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
    |you inconvenience me with questions?"

  10. I am surprised he can steer at all anymore.

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pNGdnbTepcRa5OndRVn-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I notice Barret attacks Dr Rath for claims about
    remissions in cancer with vitamins, but steers clear away
    from his claims about heart disease. I wonder why? Anth

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:40722597$0$26951$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Ian St. John" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message




    news:4071d5db$0$302$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >
    > "Ilena Rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <snip>
    > > But let's say, despite these reservations,
    > > patients allowed


    themselves

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > to be herded into Barrett's allopathic corral.
    > > There would be


    nothing

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > > there for them. Conventional medicine has no cure
    > > or treatment for these illnesses.
    >
    > Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever that
    > alternative medicine


    has

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > cure or treatment for such illnesses. It probably
    > makes a lot of


    those

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    who
    > think they have MCS worse, by encouraging the
    > extreme avoidance and elimination measures some such
    > patients employ. Social isolation


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > malnutrition can ensue.

    Actutally many current conventional treatments started
    out as folk


    medicine

    Quoted message said:

    ( herbal, alternatives ) and there is evidence of some
    basic


    principles

    Quoted message said:

    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    'unconventional' schools of medicine. There is no
    advantage in


    narrowing

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:

    field of choice into one rigid base which has been
    shown over and over


    to

    Quoted message said:

    be

    Quoted message said:

    motivated by profit margins, more than health issues.
    And the patient


    has

    Quoted message said:

    to

    Quoted message said:

    be involved in his own health and that should involve
    freedom of


    choice

    Quoted message said:

    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    determine what works best for him. Self styled
    authorities like


    Barrett

    Quoted message said:

    do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more harm than the people he claims to be saving us
    from.

    Talking in generalities about anything to do with
    medicine is useless. The above sounds quite reasonable
    until you start to ask "what specific basic principles"
    have evidence for them? Does "freedom of choice"


    operate

    Quoted message said:

    when a fraudulent treatment is being offered along with
    frank lies as to


    its

    Quoted message said:

    efficacy? Stick to specifics in any answer.

    Blind Freddie can see that alternative medicine is
    riddled with fraud


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    delusion, even though much of it is as harmless and
    "let's pretend" as a cosmetic commercial.

    There are a few modalities for important illnesses that
    may be the


    subject

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of argument, and which are promoted by reasonably
    sensible and sincere personages. Are they enough to make
    it unreasonable for Barrett and others to be trying to
    warn or inform people about the rest? Most of


    what

    Quoted message said:

    Barrett has to say is very moderate and carefully
    researched. He rarely commits himself to outright
    allegations of quackery, merely giving what information
    he has and only what he can confirm.

    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:




  11. Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    (M) said:

    Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<orac-
    [email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>, Ilena
    Rose <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg
    > July 1998 Alternative Medicine Digest


    Perhaps he should be outraged by the bogus Medical
    treatments and unproven "remedies" sold by medical
    scammers who prey on desperate patients?

    Quoted message said:


    [Snip]

    I thought a little rewording was in order.....

    Actually, my wording was correct the first time. Perhaps
    he's outraged by the pseudoscientific and pseudomedical
    "remedies" pushed by alties.

    As was my rewording of your original statement. He should be
    outraged by the pseudoscience and substandard results within
    his own profession.

  12. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I notice Barret attacks Dr Rath for claims about
    remissions in cancer with vitamins, but steers clear away
    from his claims about heart disease. I wonder why? Anth

    The evidence is fairly solidly that vitamin supplementation
    does not help cancer, but the evidence as to whether it
    helps atherosclerosis is still confusing. That is why. Rath
    is no researcher and certainly has no good evidence to show,
    and the evidence from long term epidemiological studies
    varies. Some show benefit, some even show harm. That is why
    the medical profession is cautious on that issue,

    There is good evidence that a good diet and other behaviours
    and avoidances help atherosclerosis. That creates a problem
    in interpreting those studies that suggest that
    suppplementation may help. Those who can afford lots of
    vitamins are from higher socioeconomic groups with less
    risk, and also those who take them will be more health-
    conscious in other behaviours.

    Peter Moran

  13. "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pNGdnbTepcRa5OndRVn-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I notice Barret attacks Dr Rath for claims about
    remissions in cancer


    with

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    vitamins, but steers clear away from his claims about
    heart disease. I wonder why? Anth

    The evidence is fairly solidly that vitamin
    supplementation does not help cancer, but the evidence as
    to whether it helps atherosclerosis is still confusing.
    That is why. Rath is no researcher and certainly has no
    good evidence to show, and the evidence from long term
    epidemiological studies varies. Some show benefit, some
    even show harm. That is why the medical profession is
    cautious on that issue,

    There is good evidence that a good diet and other
    behaviours and


    avoidances

    Quoted message said:

    help atherosclerosis. That creates a problem in
    interpreting those


    studies

    Quoted message said:

    that suggest that suppplementation may help. Those who can
    afford lots


    of

    Quoted message said:

    vitamins are from higher socioeconomic groups with less
    risk, and also


    those

    Quoted message said:

    who take them will be more health-conscious in other
    behaviours.

    Peter Moran

    Well in animal models the vitamin/cocktail did prevent
    atheroclerosis and reverse it. Anth

  14. What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July 1998
    Alternative Medicine Digest

    He says he's using science to protect the public from
    expensive fad diagnoses, but if this "quackbuster" has his
    way, the public will have no recourse but conventional
    medicine for their health problems.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------

    RECENTLY, I set myself the exercise of trying to understand
    what motivates a self­proclaimed "quackbuster" to write a
    book debunking an entire field of medicine. A "quackbuster,"
    as we've come to know over the years, is someone who is
    dedicated to casting aspersions on alternative medicine,
    regardless of whether there is any factual basis. As
    alternative medicine continues to grow more popular – an
    estimated 42% of Americans now use it – the "quackbusters"
    are growing more clamorous in their denunciations of our
    field. They have to be – they're almost a minority view.

    Highly visible among these self­appointed "quackbusters" is
    Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, author of
    numerous books, and spokesman for the "Quackwatch"
    community. In his latest book, Chemical Sensitivity: The
    Truth About Environmental Illness, coauthored with Ronald E.
    Gots, M.D., Ph.D (Prometheus Books, 1998), Barrett goes
    after all the illness categories for which diet and chemical
    exposure are "falsely blamed."

    Multiple chemical sensitivity, sick building syndrome,
    food­related hyperactivity, mercury amalgam toxicity,
    candidiasis hyperactivity, Gulf War syndrome – these are all
    costly misbeliefs and fad diagnoses, says Barrett. "Many
    Americans believe that exposure to common foods and
    chemicals makes them ill," he says. "This book is about
    people who hold such beliefs but are wrong."

    Not only are patients wrong, Barrett says, they are
    "financially exploited as well as mistreated." They are
    duped by "far­fetched" notions and "dubious claims," by headline-
    crazed media and "toxic television," and by "physicians who
    use questionable diagnostic and treatment methods."

    Patients presume they are being made allergic or toxic or
    even being poisoned by the mass of modern chemicals,
    cosmetics, cleaning agents, drugs, and other human-made
    substances. They are mistaken, says Barrett. Their
    misbeliefs are especially hard to understand, Barrett says,
    "at a time when our food supply is the world's safest and
    our antipollution program is the best we've ever had."

    Patients' symptoms are mental (psychosomatic) in origin –
    "they react to stress by developing multiple symptoms."
    Their symptoms are not caused by chemicals or dietary
    factors, he says. In fact, Barrett suggests that some
    patients are "hysterical," others are "paranoid," and the
    rest have "certain psychological factors" that "predispose"
    them to "develop symptoms" and to seek out "questionable"
    doctors (meaning alternative medicine practitioners) who
    will attach a ("not scientifically recognized"😉 disease
    label to them.

    Regarding Gulf War syndrome, for example, Barrett declares:
    "It provides a feeding trough for serious scientists, since
    funding is abundant, and for every charlatan with a
    newsworthy theory." On the matter of the dangers of mercury
    fillings, he states: "The false diagnosis of mercury­amalgam
    toxicity is potentially very harmful and reflects extremely
    poor judgment."

    For the most part, of the illnesses listed above, nearly all
    are mere "labels" rather than legitimate illness conditions,
    asserts Barrett; they're not caused by foods or chemicals;
    there are no "scientific"" studies conclusively proving the
    association of diet, chemicals, and illness; and we are best
    advised to dismiss them out of hand, he says.

    In most cases and for most of the illnesses commonly
    associated with chemical sensitivity, Barrett says the mass
    of mistaken patients would be better off seeking "mental
    help" from a psychiatrist or other "mental health
    practitioner." Alternative medicine physicians and
    especially "clinical ecologists" (the old name for
    practitioners of environmental medicine, which links
    exposures to toxic substances with health conditions) should
    be chastised, investigated, put on notice, and if possible,
    put out of business, says Barrett.

    Most of what Barrett claims can be refuted, easily and
    decisively. That's not my intention here. I'm more
    interested in looking at the bigger picture – what is
    Barrett really saying amidst his quackbusting bluster, and
    why?

    Barrett appears to be saying that the typical American
    patient is stupid, hysterical or paranoid, easily duped, and
    generally incapable of making a rational, correct medical
    decision on their own. The patient is mistaken and wrong in
    thinking their multiple symptoms have any connection to the
    foods they eat or the environmental chemicals to which they
    are exposed. The media is irresponsible and not to be
    trusted as an information source about medicine, especially
    about alternatives. Doctors who practice alternative
    medicine are unscientific, opportunistic frauds or quacks,
    peddling flawed or junk science

    So who can you turn to – who is not on Barrett's hit list?
    Conventional doctors. Barrett doesn't say this outright,
    but it's the only logical conclusion. His message is the
    old and familiar one from the l950s: the (conventional)
    doctor knows best.

    I next pondered what could be the purpose of this book. What
    could be the result of debunking the connection between
    foods, chemicals, cosmetics, and drugs with the varieties of
    environmental illness (mentioned above) now afflicting
    millions of patients. Why does Barrett (and his colleagues)
    so dislike alternative medicine? What's eating him that he
    must disparage the field at every opportunity?

    The purpose has to be this: to corral this mass of suffering
    "confused" patients into the treatment pen of conventional
    medicine. But here Barrett's rationale collapses. The
    patients end up with nothing.

    Surely no person suffering unexplained allergies or general
    toxicity wants to be told they're stupid, mistaken, and
    ought to have their head examined. And surely no patient who
    has abandoned conventional medicine (because the one or two
    dozen doctors they consulted hadn't a clue as to how to help
    them) would be interested in Barrett's thesis. It is
    genuinely hard to imagine how a suffering patient could
    actually be persuaded by Barrett to dismiss alternative
    approaches when the conventional ones were not useful, or
    even worse, were harmful.

    But let's say, despite these reservations, patients allowed
    themselves to be herded into Barrett's allopathic corral.
    There would be nothing there for them. Conventional medicine
    has no cure or treatment for these illnesses. In fact, as
    Barrett repeatedly points out, for the most part,
    conventional medicine does not even validate the existence
    of these illness categories and regards a diagnosis of such
    illnesses as bogus medicine. Of course, Barrett does offer
    patients "mental help."

    Let's look at this set­up carefully. Barrett and his
    "quackbusting" colleagues say they are working to protect
    the public against health frauds. They don't want the public
    to waste its money on "sham" treatments that don't work. The
    false labels of multiple chemical sensitivity, environmental
    illness, and the rest, do the public a "disservice," Barrett
    says, and seeking treatment for these wastes the financial
    resources of insurance companies, employers, and other third
    party reimbursers.

    But since conventional medicine has nothing to offer
    patients who "believe" they are suffering physical distress
    from these conditions, the patients, in effect, are left on
    their own to suffer some more. Barrett's plan seems to be to
    corral these misguided patients into the conventional
    medicine pen so he can dissuade them of their mistaken
    notions regarding their illness and make them "see" that
    it's all psychosomatic.

    Clearly the patients do not benefit at all from this
    scenario, so who does? The makers of drugs, petrochemicals,
    cosmetics, synthetic food additives, pesticides, prepared
    foods – in short, the massive food and chemical industry of
    North America benefits. They are no longer held accountable
    as causal factors in multiple symptom illnesses. They are
    let off the hook. They can proceed with business as usual.
    There are no poisons in their products. (See the cartoon
    about "quackbusters" by Harley Schwadron in "The Politics of
    Medicine" section, this issue, p.
    106.)

    In the paradox of "quackbusting," the quackbusters say
    they're protecting public health, but in fact, they're
    abandoning the public to their own suffering to protect the
    financial interests of conventional medicine, which has no
    interest in or ability to produce benefits for these
    conditions. The "quackbusters" say they're serving the
    public, but the truth is they're grossly disserving
    patients. Thanks to Barrett's remarkable chemical
    insensitivity, a great many patients will be left to suffer
    on their own without any diagnosis or treatment, except
    perhaps another round of Prozac on the house.

    Reproduced with permission Alternative Medicine Digest, July
    1998 ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE ONLINE

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ilena Rose said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July 1998
    Alternative Medicine Digest

    He says he's using science to protect the public from
    expensive fad diagnoses, but if this "quackbuster" has his
    way, the public will have no recourse but conventional
    medicine for their health problems.

    See? Just as I said -- convulsive reposting of this
    ancient article.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  16. On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 04:29:49 GMT, [email hidden] (David

    Wright) said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ilena Rose said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July
    1998 Alternative Medicine Digest

    He says he's using science to protect the public from
    expensive fad diagnoses, but if this "quackbuster" has his
    way, the public will have no recourse but conventional
    medicine for their health problems.

    See? Just as I said -- convulsive reposting of this
    ancient article.

    You say a lot of things that are absurd ... this included.

  17. On 13 Apr 2004 04:53:20 GMT, [email hidden] (OOREROOM) wrote:

    Breast Implants and MCS are very intertwined ... Chemical /
    Pharmaceutical cartels hired front groups like:

    junkscience.com and ACSH.org to spread their Industry
    Propaganda.

    Enjoy blind defense of the Web of Deceit.

    www.humanticsfoundation.com/andysposse.htm

    To quote from my Declaration in the case I won 1000% against
    Barrett, unlicensed for more than a decade and NEVER board
    certified has the audacity and arrogance to demand:

    ...that the clinical ecologists who believe in MCS, "most of
    them should have their licenses revoked." (See Ex. I to my
    original declaration.)

    humanticsfoundation.comquack
    suppdeclaration.html

    I believe that a review of Barrett¹s and Polevoy¹s websites
    also illustrates that they publish their opinions and
    conclusions on medical issues as "facts" concerning on-going
    medical controversies such as Multiple Chemical Sensitivity
    (MCS), an illness that devastates the health of a high
    number of women with breast implants. As explained in my
    original declaration, ¶16, Barrett prematurely and, in my
    opinion, inaccurately, concludes "ŒMultiple chemical
    sensitivity¹ is not a legitimate diagnosis." (Rosenthal
    Decl., Exhibit J, p. 6.)

    www.humanticsfoundation.com/quacklibelsuit.htm

  18. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ilena Rose said:

    On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 04:29:49 GMT, [email hidden]

    (David Wright) said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ilena Rose said:

    What's eating Stephen Barrett? by Burton Goldberg July
    1998 Alternative Medicine Digest

    He says he's using science to protect the public from
    expensive fad diagnoses, but if this "quackbuster" has
    his way, the public will have no recourse but
    conventional medicine for their health problems.

    See? Just as I said -- convulsive reposting of this
    ancient article.

    You say a lot of things that are absurd ... this included.

    You did exactly what I said you do, and that's absurd?
    You're even further off the beam than I thought.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

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