What makes a good Frame?

Ask 100 different people and you'll get 100 different answers.. here's one.

Lots of trade-offs come into play. A good frame combines light weight, strength, and 'feel' (dampening harsh vibrations w/o creating a 'dead' bike). It also has a geometry that will enable it to meet the needs of the kind of riding you will be doing: it may be more nimble, or more stable, and will vary your riding position (i.e. touring/comfort, road racing, TTing, etc). Durability can also come into play (corrosion resistance, CF can be fragile, Ti lasts damn near forever). A GREAT frame will have it's own unique character that you will grow into, love, and appreaciate over time.

Below is some info on frame materials from the this website:
http://bicyclesportshop.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=83

Steel
The most traditional frame material, steel has been used by framebuilders for over a century. Many types of steel tubing are available and the material is easy to bend and shape. Plus, there are myriad methods of assembly making steel very adaptable to cyclists' needs. It also offers excellent ride quality, durability, is easily repaired and affordable. If there's a knock on steel, it's that it tends to be heavy when low-quality tubing is used (found on bikes sold at department stores). And steel can rust if treated carelessly (protect that paintjob!).

Entry-level steel-frame bikes are usually less sophisticated than those typically favored by discerning cyclists and steel fanatics. But, the affordability of the lesser steel frames usually allows you to get a better level of components. And, it's possible to make a fine-riding steel frame on a budget by cutting back on some of the frills that add cost. For example, such a frame might feature less-costly TIG welding compared to the fancier lug construction on the higher-end model.

High-quality steel frames integrate great design, superior assembly, and better alloys in the tubing. A popular quality steel for bicycle frames is American SAE 4130 steel, better known as "chrome molybdenum," and referred to as "chromoly" or "chrome-moly." And, there are plenty of other impressive alloys offered by tubing suppliers such as Columbus, Reynolds, Tange and True Temper. Frames built of these materials are famous for their combination of responsiveness and comfort.

Steel is an excellent fork material. It can be formed into any shape; even aero ones. It's plenty strong. And, it also absorbs shock to soften rough roads. Steel forks are heavier than those built of lighter materials such as aluminum and carbon fiber.

Aluminum
Aluminum was first used in frame construction in 1895. But, it didn't come into wide use until the 1980s when large-diameter tubing was conceived and construction processes were perfected. Now, it's the most popular of frame materials. It's subject to the same variances in assembly and quality as steel. And, like steel, as you spend more, you get higher quality tubing and better construction.

The buzz about aluminum is that is has a more jarring ride than the other materials. But, while this used to be the case in its early years, it's not a problem today thanks to new aluminum alloys, tubing enhancements and improved construction techniques. These allow the frames to absorb shock better than ever while still offering the wonderfully lively ride that makes aluminum all the rage today.

This magic ride is attributed to aluminum being the lightest frame material -- even lighter than carbon and titanium. It makes aluminum frames great choices for racing and time trialing. And, unlike steel, aluminum won't rust; another advantage.

There are various types of aluminum tubing in use by manufacturers. Some common types are 6061 and 7005, numbers that refer to the alloys in the aluminum such as magnesium, silicon and zinc (pure aluminum isn't strong enough for bike use). And, there are some new superlight tubesets such as Easton Scandium. Be sure to ask if you have questions about an aluminum bike in our store and we can explain further.

Aluminum forks are generally stiff and light, and can be shaped aerodynamically. They also offer excellent compliance for comfort on rough roads.

Titanium
Titanium (also called "ti"😉 is one of the longest lasting, strongest, and most expensive frame materials. Many cyclists and experts feel that it combines the best characteristics of all the other frame materials. It rivals aluminum in weight, is as comfortable as steel and it has a sprightly ride and electric handling that many riders swear by. The frames feel "alive," as if each pedal stroke gets a boost from an inherent springiness in the frame.

Titanium is hard on metalworking tools, requires expensive titanium welding rod and must be joined carefully in a controlled environment. Consequently, titanium frames are very expensive to produce, which explains their high purchase price.

The two common types of titanium are 3Al/2.5V and 6Al/4V. These designations refer to the amount of aluminum (Al) and vanadium (V) alloys used in the titanium. 6Al/4V is more expensive, lighter, harder to machine and stronger. But both titanium alloys are excellent; they may even be combined in a frame.

Only a few companies manufacture titanium forks and they are very expensive due to the additional costs in material and construction. Also, because extra strength is needed in the fork steerer (the upper tube), ti forks usually outweigh other high-tech tillers. These two considerations are why most ti frames come with carbon forks.

Carbon Fiber
Carbon fiber (also called "carbon" and "graphite"😉 is a relatively new material and unique because it's not a metal. It's a fabric that's impregnated with a glue called resin that allows shaping and joining the material. Carbon frames are extremely light, stiff and durable. Its greatest advantage is that carbon can be manipulated essentially in endless ways (because builders can orient the fabric strands however they want), which means it can be fine-tuned to provide just about any ride qualities desired. It's also impervious to corrosion and can be built into beautiful shapes producing Ferrari-like looks.

Like titanium, because construction is somewhat complicated and because carbon fabric and resins are costly, carbon frames are on the high end of the cost spectrum. To describe these frames manufacturers use terms such as "high modulus" and "void free," which tells you that it's high-quality carbon fiber material and stellar construction. Sometimes, these designations appear on frame "tubing" decals. Be sure to ask if you have questions about the carbon material used in a frame.

Carbon is a popular material for forks due to its natural ability to absorb shock while offering fine handling. Although, they're not the best choice for heavy or aggressive riders, there are even all-carbon forks (weighing less than a pound). These are great if you want a superlight road bike. (Other carbon forks use steel or aluminum for the steerer.)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by rockthrowjoe
Below is some info on frame materials from the this website:
http://bicyclesportshop.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=83

Steel
The most traditional frame material, steel has been used by framebuilders for over a century. Many types of steel tubing are available and the material is easy to bend and shape. Plus, there are myriad methods of assembly making steel very adaptable to cyclists' needs. It also offers excellent ride quality, durability, is easily repaired and affordable. If there's a knock on steel, it's that it tends to be heavy when low-quality tubing is used (found on bikes sold at department stores). And steel can rust if treated carelessly (protect that paintjob!).

Entry-level steel-frame bikes are usually less sophisticated than those typically favored by discerning cyclists and steel fanatics. But, the affordability of the lesser steel frames usually allows you to get a better level of components. And, it's possible to make a fine-riding steel frame on a budget by cutting back on some of the frills that add cost. For example, such a frame might feature less-costly TIG welding compared to the fancier lug construction on the higher-end model.

High-quality steel frames integrate great design, superior assembly, and better alloys in the tubing. A popular quality steel for bicycle frames is American SAE 4130 steel, better known as "chrome molybdenum," and referred to as "chromoly" or "chrome-moly." And, there are plenty of other impressive alloys offered by tubing suppliers such as Columbus, Reynolds, Tange and True Temper. Frames built of these materials are famous for their combination of responsiveness and comfort.

Steel is an excellent fork material. It can be formed into any shape; even aero ones. It's plenty strong. And, it also absorbs shock to soften rough roads. Steel forks are heavier than those built of lighter materials such as aluminum and carbon fiber.

Aluminum
Aluminum was first used in frame construction in 1895. But, it didn't come into wide use until the 1980s when large-diameter tubing was conceived and construction processes were perfected. Now, it's the most popular of frame materials. It's subject to the same variances in assembly and quality as steel. And, like steel, as you spend more, you get higher quality tubing and better construction.

The buzz about aluminum is that is has a more jarring ride than the other materials. But, while this used to be the case in its early years, it's not a problem today thanks to new aluminum alloys, tubing enhancements and improved construction techniques. These allow the frames to absorb shock better than ever while still offering the wonderfully lively ride that makes aluminum all the rage today.

This magic ride is attributed to aluminum being the lightest frame material -- even lighter than carbon and titanium. It makes aluminum frames great choices for racing and time trialing. And, unlike steel, aluminum won't rust; another advantage.

There are various types of aluminum tubing in use by manufacturers. Some common types are 6061 and 7005, numbers that refer to the alloys in the aluminum such as magnesium, silicon and zinc (pure aluminum isn't strong enough for bike use). And, there are some new superlight tubesets such as Easton Scandium. Be sure to ask if you have questions about an aluminum bike in our store and we can explain further.

Aluminum forks are generally stiff and light, and can be shaped aerodynamically. They also offer excellent compliance for comfort on rough roads.

Titanium
Titanium (also called "ti"😉 is one of the longest lasting, strongest, and most expensive frame materials. Many cyclists and experts feel that it combines the best characteristics of all the other frame materials. It rivals aluminum in weight, is as comfortable as steel and it has a sprightly ride and electric handling that many riders swear by. The frames feel "alive," as if each pedal stroke gets a boost from an inherent springiness in the frame.

Titanium is hard on metalworking tools, requires expensive titanium welding rod and must be joined carefully in a controlled environment. Consequently, titanium frames are very expensive to produce, which explains their high purchase price.

The two common types of titanium are 3Al/2.5V and 6Al/4V. These designations refer to the amount of aluminum (Al) and vanadium (V) alloys used in the titanium. 6Al/4V is more expensive, lighter, harder to machine and stronger. But both titanium alloys are excellent; they may even be combined in a frame.

Only a few companies manufacture titanium forks and they are very expensive due to the additional costs in material and construction. Also, because extra strength is needed in the fork steerer (the upper tube), ti forks usually outweigh other high-tech tillers. These two considerations are why most ti frames come with carbon forks.

Carbon Fiber
Carbon fiber (also called "carbon" and "graphite"😉 is a relatively new material and unique because it's not a metal. It's a fabric that's impregnated with a glue called resin that allows shaping and joining the material. Carbon frames are extremely light, stiff and durable. Its greatest advantage is that carbon can be manipulated essentially in endless ways (because builders can orient the fabric strands however they want), which means it can be fine-tuned to provide just about any ride qualities desired. It's also impervious to corrosion and can be built into beautiful shapes producing Ferrari-like looks.

Like titanium, because construction is somewhat complicated and because carbon fabric and resins are costly, carbon frames are on the high end of the cost spectrum. To describe these frames manufacturers use terms such as "high modulus" and "void free," which tells you that it's high-quality carbon fiber material and stellar construction. Sometimes, these designations appear on frame "tubing" decals. Be sure to ask if you have questions about the carbon material used in a frame.

Carbon is a popular material for forks due to its natural ability to absorb shock while offering fine handling. Although, they're not the best choice for heavy or aggressive riders, there are even all-carbon forks (weighing less than a pound). These are great if you want a superlight road bike. (Other carbon forks use steel or aluminum for the steerer.)

And all that DRIVEL does not address what makes a good frame.A good or bad,suitable or unsuitable frame can be made of any material or combination thereof.

I'll take a stab. I'll try to be uncharacteristically brief.

Subjectively speaking, a good frame offers:

Geometry which lends itself well to the intended use.

Durability. Welds stay put, tubes maintain their integrity. A good frame should give you what you expect in terms of lifespan. Depending on your style and the bike's style, this can be anywhere from a few years to eighty, or 10,000 miles to 200,000.

Low weight. A relative, subjective consideration, but generally speaking, a lighter bike is more efficient than a heavier one when all else is equal.

Stiffness, particularly in regards to lateral stress. A good bike shouldn't twist or turn under your weight, pedaling force, or road stresses to the point where your efficiency over miles is compromised significantly. It's nice to have a frame that holds your chainline and wheel-planes steady.

A good feel. This is, of course, the most subtle and subjective concern of them all. Different frames offer different flavors of feedback, depending on how they're made, what they're made of, how they're built up, and what mood you're in. There are no rules here, though most folks are looking for a balance between positive, informative road feedback and the absorbtion of comfort-sapping vibrations.

Sexiness. Undoubtedly important. If a bike doesn't excite you on some level, don't even think of buying it. A bike which turns you on is more likely to receive regular care, and more importantly, regular riding.

How was that for a short response? (just kidding)

Lokstah that was probably the best answer I could have got.

What companies offer well made frames or are they all pretty well equal. How do I know if a Fuji Team's frame is as good as a Cannondale R800.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Brooks
Lokstah that was probably the best answer I could have got.

What companies offer well made frames or are they all pretty well equal. How do I know if a Fuji Team's frame is as good as a Cannondale R800.

Good is relative.Once you get into the price range you mentioned, there are probably no BAD frames. I've had 'good' frames that are long gone because they were not suitable for one reason or another, or maybe I just liked something else better and something had to go to make space.

Boudreaux brings up a good point. If you're dealing with any reasonably succesful and serious frame maker (like Fuji or Cannondale), the negative point comparisons between frames are going to be really subtle, and once you get out of the true budget offerings, you're not going to encounter many frames that are bad.

If you spend enough time scrutinizing them, you might find the two frames you're examining are skewed in slightly different directions -- one might be a touch flexier, and the other a smidge heavier. One might have a more vaunted reputation for long-term durability. One might ride a bit plusher. It could be quite hard to tell. It's likely going to boil down to preference, because they're both pretty solid.

If you're really interested in finding out how, say, the R800 and the Fuji Team compare, you've got two avenues: ask, ask, and ask until you've got a sizable compendium of rider experiences to draw impressions from, and test ride each as extensively as possible. I suggest doing both as extensively as you can -- at least until you gather the courage to pull the trigger.

Happy deciding... and don't forget: listen to your gut. It's wise. It knows.

🙂

Thanks guys for putting up with one more Newbie

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Brooks
Thanks guys for putting up with one more Newbie

Only thing I'd add to lokstah's (and everyone else's) brilliance is: some of the factors that make a frame a great frame are trade-offs with each other...you can't have it all. (Low weight, all other things being equal, may mean shorter life or more flex, for instance.) And generally (this doesn't always hold true) the more you pay the more you get (a well-built Ti frame for example...a wonderous set of + attributes, and a wonderous price tag).

You can start to get an intuitive sense for frame quality by looking at a high-end frame side-by-side with a lower end model (a Klein side-by-side w/a $250 model)... the weld quality, paint quality, weight, and ride quality will jump out and be obvious.

Going on what RC2 said I'd suggest testing bikes both above and below your price range. Take a super bike out for a spin and then see how it compares to the bottom of the stack. Find the frame with the biggest reputation for stiffness you can and the flimisiest. Ride a heavy bike and a superlight. I've been riding for years and for a long time I thought being able to tell the difference in frame flex was a bunch of nonsense, I mean really it must be on the order of magnitude of millimeters or less. But you can really feel it, not instantaneously but over miles, my race bike is a much harsher ride than my other bike (you can feel smaller bumps and they are more violent, that's instantaneous), it'll beat you up over bumps, but the same stiffness translates into efficiency and speed.

If you have a bike now ride it a lot and try to find what you like and what you don't like. Granted it may not even be similar to any of the bikes you're looking at. If you know people who ride borrow theirs. I saw a pretty nice, ancient but nice, bike for sale in someones yard today. If it fit a little better I would have picked it up to the tune of $20 <- not missing any zeros. I rode a bike like that for a year, before I dropped $500 on what at the time I consided to be a superbike. The benefit was that I had been riding for a while before I tried to get a bike. Good luck in whatever you end up doing.

By the way, the cannondale frame is wicked, after researching for a while you may hear about the EFBe test, it passed. It's light, supposedly stiff enough. It's the same frame as their highest end models, although they have a new one now (six13). Ride lots and take your time.

Quoted post said:

You can start to get an intuitive sense for frame quality by looking at a high-end frame side-by-side with a lower end model (a Klein side-by-side w/a $250 model)... the weld quality, paint quality, weight, and ride quality will jump out and be obvious.

You can't go wrong with a Colnago- Can you?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by martin_g
You can't go wrong with a Colnago- Can you?

What if it doesn't fit? I have Colnago, great bikes, but there are some models that wouldn't fit my pistol.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by boudreaux
What if it doesn't fit? I have Colnago, great bikes, but there are some models that wouldn't fit my pistol.

which Colnago do you have? I'm surprised that you actually own a Colnago, not that it's not a good bike but knwoing ...I figure you would not aprove of it because much of is price goes to the Italian hoory heritage.

Give us some feedback on your Colnagos...I'm considering one myself. 🙂

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Rudy
which Colnago do you have? I'm surprised that you actually own a Colnago, not that it's not a good bike but knwoing ...I figure you would not aprove of it because much of is price goes to the Italian hoory heritage.

Give us some feedback on your Colnagos...I'm considering one myself. 🙂

Master Light and a Tecnos. Not approve due to 'italian hoory heritage'??? Gimmie a break. I also have 6 other 'italian hoory heritage' rides. I get bored with 'cookie cutter' trek,Cdale,giant and specialized.Not that they may not be 'good' bikes.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by boudreaux
I get bored with 'cookie cutter' trek,Cdale,giant and specialized.Not that they may not be 'good' bikes.

I hear you there brother! 🙂 And I ride a C'dale!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by boudreaux
Master Light and a Tecnos. Not approve due to 'italian hoory heritage'??? Gimmie a break. I also have 6 other 'italian hoory heritage' rides. I get bored with 'cookie cutter' trek,Cdale,giant and specialized.Not that they may not be 'good' bikes.

that was a typo 🙂

it should have been "italian hooey"...you should have known 🙂

Other factors to think about (just 'cause I hadn't seen them mentioned):

clearance for any width tire you might ever intend to use... and then some (in case you need to limp home on a damaged rim which would rub against your chainstay with less clearance)

fender clearance. Even if you don't think you'll ever need them, It's better to have the option than not. (though there are extremely narrow fenders such as the SKS race blades... I wonder how much good they do though)

eyelets for racks and etc, and any other braze-ons that you MIGHT want to use some day.