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What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

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28 December 2003
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Nlee1875
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  1. December 28, 2003

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    For my Christmas gift, I received a WTB Momentum SL Wheelset purchased from Performance Bicycle
    Mail Order.

    The wheelset MSRP was listed at $399.98 -- but was being closed out at $100 to $120 depending on
    timing of the sale.

    From my point of view.. these WTB wheelset rolls no more better than my Shimano STX-RC winter
    wheelset and far far inferior to my aging $220 XTR Mavic x517.

    My question is: Where are these manufacturers coming with the price points on wheelsets? Gosh.. I
    cannot imagine the disappointment of paying near full price if that were the case -- let alone $280
    off suggested price.

    Second question.. What should / can someone expect from a true $400 wheelset that is not already
    incorporated in the WTB Momentum SL MTB wheelset -- not that I would ever pay that kind of
    price. hi hi.🙂)

    Knock Shimano if you want.. but my XTR with x517now looks like a great deal at $220 paid years ago.
    I didn't think so then.

    Much obliged. Nick Lee Sparks, NV carless since January 2000. member of the five digit club (10,000
    miles per year) every year since.

  2. Nick Lee said:

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    Supply and demand; and demamd is a function of the ability to hype.

    In a perfect world, a wheel would be ultra light, aerodynamic, durable, and stay true forever. In
    the real world, tradeoffs have to be made. Assuming good components, good design and build quality
    are the most important factors.

    Are you using the same tires on these wheels as your old ones?

    Quoted message said:

    not that I would ever pay that kind of price. hi hi.🙂)

    Come on, Nick. You're not on 40 meter CW. ;-)

    Art Harris N2AH

  3. On 28 Dec 2003 14:55:02 GMT, [email hidden] (NLee1875) may have

    Quoted message said:

    December 28, 2003

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    Solely my opinion:

    The existence of a market for a $400 wheelset.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  4. NLee1875 said:

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    For my Christmas gift, I received a WTB Momentum SL Wheelset purchased from Performance Bicycle
    Mail Order.

    The wheelset MSRP was listed at $399.98 -- but was being closed out at $100 to $120 depending on
    timing of the sale.

    From my point of view.. these WTB wheelset rolls no more better than my Shimano STX-RC winter
    wheelset and far far inferior to my aging $220 XTR Mavic x517.

    My question is: Where are these manufacturers coming with the price points on wheelsets? Gosh.. I
    cannot imagine the disappointment of paying near full price if that were the case -- let alone
    $280 off suggested price.

    Second question.. What should / can someone expect from a true $400 wheelset that is not already
    incorporated in the WTB Momentum SL MTB wheelset -- not that I would ever pay that kind of price.
    hi hi.🙂)

    Knock Shimano if you want.. but my XTR with x517now looks like a great deal at $220 paid years
    ago. I didn't think so then.

    I'm not sure what you are asking but the bearings in a STX hub roll exactly the same as the bearings
    in an XTR hub, assuming they were both new, opened, lubricated, then adjusted properly for a slight
    preload when installed in a bike and finally locked by the wheelbuilder.

    Although there are various prices of everything, I don't believe you can properly attribute bearing
    performance differences to essentially identical things.

    Weight, maybe. Appearance, maybe. "Pride of ownership" (brand name) maybe. Durability possibly. But
    not bearing efficiency or performance differences from STX to XTR.

    What kind of rim? Who built them? Are the nipples lubricated? Are they tight? Stress relieved? Are
    they round? Is there any grease in the bearing? Is it adjusted? Wheels here range $24.95 to $400
    each as they do most places. And if your vendor has a few hundred gathering dust he probably got
    hurt on the price just like any other product. Hell, Mitsubishi will pay you to buy certain models
    right now. Pricing has so many aspects that there are no rules.

    (We sell pairs of wheels but at least we don't sell 'wheelsets' fer chrissake.)
    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, NLee1875

    Quoted message said:

    December 28, 2003

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?


    And what makes a $200 designer low rider jeans a $200 jeans when you can buy an Old Navy jeans for
    much less?

    All it comes down to is, style and demand..

    A year and a half ago, not with my better judgement, I purchased a set of nice awesome Velocity
    Spartacus aero and paired spoked wheels from eBay for a killer deal. I paid something like $100 for
    a pair. I don't know whether it was a deal or not, but they sure weighted a lot less than my pair of
    hand built Campy Mexico wheelset 3 cross 36 spokes laced Veloce wheelset that I wanted to replace.

    When I got the new wheels and rode them, I thought I am going to climb hills faster than my old
    wheels. Wrong!! What happens next is an accelerated problem with the rear hub of the Spartacus that
    jams all the time. The sealed bearings keep tighting up and then wheels start warping. All in all,
    these wheels need so much care and attention that I decided to put it on sale with my old racing
    bike. When I had an ad out 2 years ago for the same racing bike with the Veloce wheelset, there were
    no takers for the price I was asking. But when I had a new ad but with these paired spoked wheels, I
    got calls asking whether it was sold or not. I eventually sold the bike with the wheels for more
    than I was asking for.

    Phew!! Thank god, because I thought I would never be able to sell these lousy wheels!

    Good wheels I now know come from a good builder. Good builders can always charge up to $60-100 per
    wheel for a premium build, but some I know will charge less. You might think it's steep, but the
    durability and quality of workmanship will always speak for themselves.

  6. nlee-<< For my Christmas gift, I received a WTB Momentum SL Wheelset purchased from Performance
    Bicycle Mail Order.

    The wheelset MSRP was listed at $399.98 -- but was being closed out at $100 to $120 depending on
    timing of the sale. >><BR><BR>

    I recommend that you have somebody true, tension, round, dish and stress relieve these before ya
    ride them.

    nlee-<< Knock Shimano if you want.. but my XTR with x517now looks like a great deal at $220 paid
    years ago. I didn't think so then. >><BR><BR>

    We recommend XTR/XT hubs for all our MTB wheelbuilds, The best hubs there is, IMO, in terms of cost,
    reliability, serviceability. Just make sure ya grease and adjust them when new.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

  7. NLee1875 said:

    December 28, 2003

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    For my Christmas gift, I received a WTB Momentum SL Wheelset purchased from Performance Bicycle
    Mail Order.

    The wheelset MSRP was listed at $399.98 -- but was being closed out at $100 to $120 depending on
    timing of the sale.

    From my point of view.. these WTB wheelset rolls no more better than my Shimano STX-RC winter
    wheelset and far far inferior to my aging $220 XTR Mavic x517.

    I'm also surprised by how heavy some of them are. Presumably aerodynamics are the only technical
    advantage and the rest is looks.

  8. On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:59:14 +0000, Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    I'm also surprised by how heavy some of them are. Presumably aerodynamics are the only technical
    advantage and the rest is looks.

    You don't think "looks" commands a price premium? <G>

    Been to a car dealer, electronics dealer, or furniture store lately?

    Many consumer goods and vehicles cost only marginally more to build a super-deluxe model over a
    base model, but the "value-added" features, of which "looks" is a biggie, add a large markup to
    the price.

    Explain all those cosmetic rear spoilers and truck / SUV bash guards!
    <G>

    Barry

  9. Zog The Undeniable said:
    NLee1875 said:

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    Marketing.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm also surprised by how heavy some of them are. Presumably aerodynamics are the only technical
    advantage and the rest is looks.

    The weight is a penalty of these wheels, the aerodynamics are inconsequential for 99% of riding, and
    looks are subjective.

  10. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Arthur Harris
    demamd is a function of the ability to hype.

    Art Harris N2AH

    not quite.

  11. On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:16:41 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .

    may have said:
    Zog The Undeniable said:

    I'm also surprised by how heavy some of them are. Presumably aerodynamics are the only technical
    advantage and the rest is looks.

    You don't think "looks" commands a price premium? <G>

    Been to a car dealer, electronics dealer, or furniture store lately?

    Many consumer goods and vehicles cost only marginally more to build a super-deluxe model over a
    base model, but the "value-added" features, of which "looks" is a biggie, add a large markup to
    the price.

    Explain all those cosmetic rear spoilers and truck / SUV bash guards!

    Better still; sometimes more costs less at the retail level.

    A business associate was shopping for a new Chevy van earlier this year. What he wanted was a 3/4
    ton cargo or conversion van; a box on wheels with two seats. What he discovered, to his immense
    chagrin, was that he could get a 15-passenger fully decked-out model with all of the factory-
    installed interior for almost $6000 LESS than the best price he could get on a cargo or conversion
    van, and every dealer had at least one of the passenger vans in stock ready for delivery while most
    would have had to order the van he really wanted. *Every* dealer, even the ones with cargo vans in
    their inventory, was able to give him a better deal on the passenger van than on the cargo model.
    The best price came from a dealer 140 miles away, across a state line, so that's who got the sale.

    The seats are now on the roof of his warehouse office, in plastic bags, waiting for the day when he
    sells the vehicle.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  12. Werehatrack said:

    A business associate was shopping for a new Chevy van earlier this year. What he wanted was a 3/4
    ton cargo or conversion van; a box on wheels with two seats. What he discovered, to his immense
    chagrin, was that he could get a 15-passenger fully decked-out model with all of the factory-
    installed interior for almost $6000 LESS than the best price he could get on a cargo or
    conversion van,

    He wouldn't happen to be a carpet installer, would he? <G>

    Carpet and lino guys often fight over used stretch vans.

    Barry

  13. Werehatrack said:

    was that he could get a 15-passenger fully decked-out model with all of the factory-installed
    interior for almost $6000 LESS than the best price he could get on a cargo or conversion van, and
    every dealer had at least one of the passenger vans in stock ready for delivery while most would
    have had to order the van he really wanted. *Every* dealer, even the ones with cargo vans in their
    inventory, was able to give him a better deal on the passenger van than on the cargo model.

    Further, it seems like even a cargo van is significantly cheaper than a similarly equipped pickup
    truck of equivalent weight capacity (to say nothing of volume). Those cargo / full size passenger
    vans are real cheap haulers, and good workhorses.

    Quoted message said:

    The seats are now on the roof of his warehouse office, in plastic bags, waiting for the day when he
    sells the vehicle.

    Unless he doesn't plan on keeping the van very long, they'll still rot like that. Better to use them
    as couches. They really make comfortable seating when taken out of the vehicular context.
    --
    Rick Onanian

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Tim McNamara said:
    Zog The Undeniable said:
    NLee1875 said:

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    Marketing.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm also surprised by how heavy some of them are. Presumably aerodynamics are the only technical
    advantage and the rest is looks.

    The weight is a penalty of these wheels, the aerodynamics are inconsequential for 99% of riding,
    and looks are subjective.

    I thought the OP was talking about mountain bike wheels. For MTBs, there is a definite advantage to
    adding weight to the wheels. I just "upgraded" by adding double-wall rims to my bike in place of the
    previous nice light single-wall units. Says "ABUSER FRIENDLY" right on the rim! Of course, I also
    destroyed a really nice 36-spoke double-wall rear rim last year because I was stupid.

    On raod bikes, aerodynamics are more important than weight anytime you exceed about 20 km/h. Most
    cyclists can do this, but then, most cyclists get no gains from having a more aero wheelset (or a
    lighter one).

    If you are racing, it will depend on your discipline and style whether you should go for aero wheels
    or light wheels (light, aero wheels are great, but are either fragile, expensive, or both). That
    said, most riders should go aero unless they do a lot of hillclimbs.

    32-spoke non-aero, because I'm too cheap to upgrade good stuff,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

  15. "Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (NLee1875) may have said:

    December 28, 2003

    What makes a $400 wheelset a $400 wheelset?

    Solely my opinion:

    The existence of a market for a $400 wheelset.

    Yep. And that also explains $3,000 frames, $700+ cranks and $1,000+ shock forks. The marketing
    folks are trying to find the limits of what people will pay for this stuff. They passed the
    diminishing returns stage a long time ago, and they're still going strong. Have you priced the new
    XTR and DuraAce components? Remember: This is mass-marketed componentry, not one-off hand-crafted
    works of art.

    Rocketman

  16. On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:29:37 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]>

    may have said:
    Werehatrack said:

    The seats are now on the roof of his warehouse office, in plastic bags, waiting for the day when
    he sells the vehicle.

    Unless he doesn't plan on keeping the van very long, they'll still rot like that. Better to use
    them as couches. They really make comfortable seating when taken out of the vehicular context.

    Two years, tops. Dry climate. The ones just reinstalled in the van he's selling (with 150K+ on the
    clock at two years) are minty fresh and nice.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  17. On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:37:47 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .

    may have said:

    He wouldn't happen to be a carpet installer, would he? <G>

    Carpet and lino guys often fight over used stretch vans.

    That's where I think the used truck broker got mine, from one of them, after he'd given up on fixing
    it with many $K in recent repairs. (The problem that had caused the prior owner to replace the
    engine, the fuel injection system control unit, and several other expensive bits, was a bad wire in
    one harness; total cost of repair by me was 35 cents. This was not the first time I made lemonade
    out of someone else's lemon.)

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  18. On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 05:56:14 GMT, "Rocketman"

    may have said:

    ...The marketing folks are trying to find the limits of what people will pay for this stuff. They
    passed the diminishing returns stage a long time ago, and they're still going strong. Have you
    priced the new XTR and DuraAce components? Remember: This is mass-marketed componentry, not one-off
    hand-crafted works of art.

    Dead right. I take great pride in having the patience to wait for the high rollers to need to shed
    last year's wizard-level toys (for a pittance) after having upgraded to this year's Magic Stuff.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
    it's also possible that I'm busy.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  19. Quoted message said:

    On raod bikes, aerodynamics are more important than weight anytime you exceed about 20 km/h. Most
    cyclists can do this, but then, most cyclists get no gains from having a more aero wheelset (or a
    lighter one).

    While I would agree that aerodynamics play a part in speed, that part is actually less significant
    to justify the cost of some of the boutique style wheelsets.

    Quoted message said:

    If you are racing, it will depend on your discipline and style whether you should go for aero
    wheels or light wheels (light, aero wheels are great, but are either fragile, expensive, or both).
    That said, most riders should go aero unless they do a lot of hillclimbs.

    Aero wheels are sometimes heavier than the regular boxed rims of the same lacing, spokes and hub
    combinations. Most semi-aero rims like the Mavic CXP-33 or the Campy Mexico do squat in providing
    any aero advantage other than it looks good. They may offer some aero advantage over regular boxed
    rims, but the advantage could well be measured psychologically rather than factually for most
    average riders. The only instance that I can think these aero wheels will benefit most is when you
    have two same professional racers of almost equal might and their victories can only be measured not
    in hours or minutes. They are measured in seconds and every saving seconds the aero wheels can
    provide are beneficial to the racer that rides them. Otherwise, don't believe what most ads say
    about these aero boutique wheelsets allowing you to perform miracles like Lance Armstrong.

    You don't or can't with just wheels alone.

  20. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    David said:
    Quoted message said:

    On raod bikes, aerodynamics are more important than weight anytime you exceed about 20 km/h.
    Most cyclists can do this, but then, most cyclists get no gains from having a more aero wheelset
    (or a lighter one).

    While I would agree that aerodynamics play a part in speed, that part is actually less significant
    to justify the cost of some of the boutique style wheelsets.

    Well, speed costs money. I'm not claiming a value proposition here. If I was, we'd all be riding
    around on bikes found in dumpsters or at garage sales (er...) because a $10 garage-sale Bianchi (not
    a hypothetical example!) is far more bicycle/dollar than virtually anything else (except a free
    dumpstered Nishiki).

    Virtually no amateur racer could make a financial case for expensive aero wheels, but then, precious
    few fishermen can make a case for nice carbon fibre rods. The aesthetics and sensations of owning
    and using this gear are enough to justify the purchase. Or, like me, the amateur racer puts a much
    larger personal value on finishing position than the prize money.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you are racing, it will depend on your discipline and style whether you should go for aero
    wheels or light wheels (light, aero wheels are great, but are either fragile, expensive, or
    both). That said, most riders should go aero unless they do a lot of hillclimbs.

    Aero wheels are sometimes heavier than the regular boxed rims of the same lacing, spokes and hub
    combinations. Most semi-aero rims like the Mavic CXP-33 or the Campy Mexico do squat in providing
    any aero advantage other than it looks good. They may offer some aero advantage over regular boxed
    rims, but the advantage could well be measured psychologically rather than factually for most
    average riders. The only instance that I can think these aero wheels will benefit most is when you
    have two same professional racers of almost equal might and their victories can only be measured
    not in hours or minutes. They are measured in seconds and every saving seconds the aero wheels can
    provide are beneficial to the racer that rides them. Otherwise, don't believe what most ads say
    about these aero boutique wheelsets allowing you to perform miracles like Lance Armstrong.

    You have to know what you're buying, but there are numerous places where you can go to see wind-
    tunnel test results on these wheels. Assuming the rider is smart enough to buy wheels with an actual
    aerodynamic advantage, the weight penalty matters very little in actual racing, but an aerodynamic
    advantage can be massive if the rider exploits it.

    Even in sprint situations, if you're going even reasonably fast, you're likely to gain more from the
    reduced aero resistance as you sprint than you would lose in acceleration from the slightly lighter
    wheels. The differences are small, but races are won by small differences.

    In well-attended time trials, there can be no doubt: over a 40k time trial, a good set of wheels can
    make a difference of 1-2 minutes. Ironically, because they spend more time on the course, slower
    riders save _more_ minutes than faster riders over the same course when given the same aero
    advantage.

    That said, optimal body positioning can save you even more time than aero wheels, but both combined
    is best of all.

    escapevelocity.bc.cattresults.html

    That's the results of the BC Provincial TT championships, a 37 km TT. I picked this at random
    because I knew where the results were.

    There were 64 finishers, and I cannot see any two consecutive riders who were separated by more than
    a minute in the results, except for the 64th place rider, who was 97s down on 63rd. Less than two
    minutes covered the top five, including a dead tie for 4th place.

    This seems very consistent with a well-contested TT (for a thinly contested TT, look at the women's
    results where four minutes separated first from second. But then, 2s separated second from
    third...). In such a case, any rider who does not take the time to optimize their position and use
    maximally aero gear is going to give away several minutes and dozens of places.

    If there's a hypothetical rider in this listing (say, some XC mountain biker thinking about coming
    over to the dark side) with top-10 power but box-section wheels and a mediocre bike position, we
    would expect his aero drag problems to move him from 10th to about 47th place. That's using a
    relatively conservative (according to the previous page cited) estimate of 6 minutes lost (roughly 5
    to poor position, and another 1 for the wheels). The wheels alone would knock him down 7 positions
    in the rankings.

    Aero matters,
    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

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