What is the "deep breath"

Hey, if jogging doesn't bring on yawns, you're not doing it
right. That goes double for writing about it.

On 16 Jun 2004 13:25:55 -0700, [email hidden] (Paul Johnson)

Quoted message said:

Sometimes when I am running I can get a real deep breath.

<snip> i had to look at the poster to make sure it wasn't
me!!! good question. i'll be looking for the answers.
...thehick

In article said:

Sometimes when I am running I can get a real deep breath.
It feels as if my lungs have totally opened up and at the
deepest point of the breath all airflow stops for a
second. This is the type of deep breath you achieve with a
good yawn. Most of the time I can't get this deep breath
and I woldn't want to breath this deeply all the time
during a run. It's not that I can't get enough air to
breathe as I run and this is not a new condition. I have
just become curious enough to ask about. Actually this
deep breath can be achieved, or not, anytime during the
day or night. My questions are what's the physiology
behind the deep breath? Is it a problem that I can't take
this deep breath whenever I want or is that just life?

I believe a lot has to do with relaxing or letting go of
tension often related to the diaphragm.

Here's some thoughts from a post I dug out of my archives
from August '95:

Path:
powergrid.electriciti.com!slip07.cs2.electriciti.com!user
From: [email hidden] (Ozzie Gontang)
Newsgroups: rec.running Subject: Re: Breathing Followup-To:
rec.running Date: 27 Aug 1995 05:22:19 GMT Organization:
Int'l Association of Marathoners Lines: 122 Distribution:
world Message-ID: <gontang-
[email hidden]> References:
<[email hidden]> <Pine.A32.3.91.950823184203.63911B-
[email hidden]>
<[email hidden]> NNTP-Posting-Host:
slip07.cs2.electriciti.com

Some quick thoughts and observations on breathing:

1. Keeping the same cadence, my speed depends on the lean
of the body from ankle to the top of the head. The more
the lean, the faster I go and the quicker I have to
move my foot through its cycle while maintaining the
same cadence.

2. When I am running slowly, 9 to 10 minute pace, I can
breathe 8 steps out and 4 or 6 steps in. That means I
get one cycle of air every 12 to 14 steps.

3. As I speed up, but maintaining the same cadence I will
shorten the breathe cycle so that my perceived effort
(Borg Scale) will support my increased speed.

4. As my speed increases I take in the same volume of air
with each cycle. I would go from an 8 out/4 in to a 6
out/4 in to a 5 out/4 in to a 4out/4in to a 4 out/3 in
to a 3out/3in, to a 3out/2in, to a 2out/2in. So not
changing my cadence, I can run faster and go from a one
breath cycle in 12 steps(8out/4in) to a 3 breath cycle
in 12 steps (2out/2in). Why breathe 2out/2in all the
time when I don't need that much O2 to run a slower
pace. Aren't I overusing the diaphram unnecessarily-
which takes extra energy?

5. If someone breathes 2out/2in all the time, where do
they go for more O2 when they run faster? Using my
breathing as gears, (gotta think about that metaphor),
I can maintain the same cadence and go from a 10
minute/mile pace to a 7 minute mile. I use my breathing
to support me as I pick up my speed while maintaining
the same step cadence. (If you've seen the Marine Corps
Silent Drill Team, you'll know what I mean)

6. At times when I am really pushing a run and want to
keep my mind from going into panic from O2 deprevation,
I use an 3 breath cycle in 8 steps to keep me focused
as I keep the body oxygenated. The breathing during the
8 steps is:
in/out/in/out/in-in/out-out. This cycle makes it easier to
get in a 3rd cycle where most people would only get 2
cycles(2out/2in/2out/2in). This gives me a slight edge
as I am getting one more cycle of air every 8 steps
than you are.

7. The problem for most runners with breathing is not that
they can't get enough air in, it's that they can't get
enough air out. I train people to march in place and
count their steps, starting at 10 out/4in and working
up to 20 out/2in. People have to gasp for air not
because they can't get enough air in, they haven't
gotten enough air out, so that they can relax on the 2,
or 3 or 4 steps of breathing in with no effort.

8. In a marathon you are in a trance from about mile 15
onward. It is the breathing that keeps the mind focused
and in the present. If I am tired, depleted of muscle
glycogen and liver glycogen (feeds the brain), I will
be moving slowly at a 10 minute/mile pace and breathing
with a 2 cycle breath for 8 steps or even a 3 cycle
breath for 8 steps. I need the O2 to keep the mind and
body going since I've depleted the energy stores.

9. If you listen to a respirator, it is so monotonous that
it can put you to sleep. Breathing for me is that
respirator. I breath out as many steps as comfortable
to support my pace so that I can relax in for 2,3,4, or
more steps. I never gasp for air. I have gotten all the
air out, and figuratively created a vaccuum so that
when I relax the diaphram, the atmosphere breathes me.

10. When running with someone and using an even number of
breathes in and out, i.e. (3out/3in; 4out/4in;
2out/2in) I do reciprocating breathe. Your 2out are my
2/in and vice versa. So after a while we have created a
reciprocating engine where I am breathing you and you
are breathing me. As you breathe out, you are helping
me breathe in. Again, it further helps the trance state
occuring in longer distances. It calms the mind/brain,
which always wants to know that it has enough O2 so
that it won't have to worry.

11. I have found over the years that many people have
injuries to one side of their body. One observation
is that they use symmetric breathing. That means when
you add up the number of steps in one cycle of
breathing( 5out/3in; 4out/4in; 9out/3in) and they are
even then you will always be landing on the same foot
at the beginning of each cycle. With asymmetric
breathing (4out/3in, 7out/4in; 5out/2in) every cycle
you will be landing or opposite foot at the beginning
of each cycle.

12. There's a lot of other "stuff" to talk about but
that's enough overload for now. There will be many who
say that this is obsessive/compulsive about counting
or changing breathe patterns. It's stated: "Just run
and your breathing will take care of you." These are
some things I've played with over the years and taught
to a large number of people.

I'm interested in hearing your comments. Have any of you
read Ian Jackson's book from a few years ago about
Breathe Play.

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang

Hi Ozzie:

"Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

First off, thanks for the running clips of the elite guys,
very interesting.

Quoted message said:

Some quick thoughts and observations on breathing:

Quoted message said:

4. As my speed increases I take in the same volume of air
with each cycle. I would go from an 8 out/4 in to a 6
out/4 in to a 5 out/4 in to a

4out/4in

Quoted message said:

to a 4 out/3 in to a 3out/3in, to a 3out/2in, to a
2out/2in. So not changing my cadence, I can run faster and
go from a one breath cycle in 12 steps(8out/4in) to a 3
breath cycle in 12 steps (2out/2in). Why breathe 2out/2in
all the time when I don't need that much O2 to run a
slower pace. Aren't I overusing the diaphram unnecessarily-
which takes extra energy?

You must be a lungfish or something. I suspect my lungs are
more ordinary -- here's a data point:

I am usually in 2 steps in, 2 steps out (I breath more
deeply as I increase speed). I'll do this from a heart rate
of 115 through 145.

Then I shift into 2-in, 1-out when I start getting close to
Lactate Threshold (above 145)

When running really hard back in my prime, e.g, 4:40/mile
pace down a hill at the end of a 10k, I remember distinctly
getting down to 1-in 1-out.

I can't run that fast anymore at age 52, but today I went
very hard up a 20% grade for a mile and was in 1-in 1-out at
the end with a 180 pulse.

I've experimented with longer cycles, and I can do it at low
heart rates, but I suspect the lungs oxygenate the blood
better with fresh air flushing in more frequently.

Regards,

Dan

it's probably related to your vascular-relaxation status
(pulmonary vessel relation) and muscle relaxation around
lung sacs.

in other words, there are some chemicals that assits this
process, nitric oxide (NO) being one (the stuff that helps
penises get real big and errect, via

you can help you body produce more NO by taking arginie, an
amino acid, of which peanut butter is a rich source. i would
not advise taking arginie supplements, though some do.

and course as Ozzy said, it comes from a general overall
relaxation status and cadence, which can found from running,
yoga stretching, etc.

even so, sometimes it's ellusive -- no matter what, my
diaphram won't relax some days. bronchodilators, eg, meds
used for asthma and COPD, help people who have difficulty,
via disease. but for normal folks, exercise and yoga stuff
can do the job.

\\ - - // ( @ @ ) +--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----
+ +------------------------Oooo----+ oooO
( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_

<< you can help you body produce more NO by taking
arginie >>

that's arginine

\\ - - // ( @ @ ) +--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----
+ +------------------------Oooo----+ oooO
( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_

[email hidden] (Virginiaz) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

it's probably related to your vascular-relaxation status
(pulmonary vessel relation) and muscle relaxation around
lung sacs.

When I was 80 pounds heavier I would sometimes have a
tremendous urge to take a deep breath. Usually this would be
when I was relaxing in bed and trying to go to sleep. It was
very frustrating, because I could never get a deep enough
breath. I'm not sure what that was all about, but it was a
little frightening.

Now, sometimes when I'm running and I'm trying to relax,
lower the heart rate and ease the tension, it helps to take
a deep breath. This will lower my heart rate by a few BPMs.

Phil M.

--
"I gotta go. You're killin' me."

This is really weird, writing about breathing, something
which you'd think should be totally unconscious and right at
all times...

"Virginiaz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

and course as Ozzy said, it comes from a general overall
relaxation

status and

Quoted message said:

cadence, which can found from running, yoga
stretching, etc.

even so, sometimes it's ellusive -- no matter what, my
diaphram won't

relax

Quoted message said:

some days. bronchodilators, eg, meds used for asthma and
COPD, help people who have difficulty, via disease. but
for normal folks, exercise and yoga stuff can do the job.

I always, even when just sitting around and relaxing,
breathe mainly through my belly (diaphragm)...my stomach
goes out first, and unless I'm working, my chest hardly
rises. I instinctively start at the bottom and work up.

I thought nothing of it until my wife remarked on it when
she was helping me put up some curtain rods.

Is this the way most runners breathe?

If there's any obstruction it's the mild exercise induced
asthma I get on long runs (3-5 hours), or hot smoggy days.
On such days I give myself a preemptive blast of atrovent to
keep any Asthma demons at bay. I deliberately use it only
once or twice a week on my longer runs only to avoid any
tolerance or dependence.

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

This is really weird, writing about breathing, something
which you'd think should be totally unconscious and right
at all times...

unfortunately, it is not so always. very few people on this
planet know how to take a deep breath. most of us take
shallow breaths.

jobs

Dan Stumpus said:

This is really weird, writing about breathing, something
which you'd think should be totally unconscious and right
at all times...

[]

Quoted message said:

I always, even when just sitting around and relaxing,
breathe mainly through my belly (diaphragm)...my stomach
goes out first, and unless I'm working, my chest hardly
rises. I instinctively start at the bottom and work up.

I thought nothing of it until my wife remarked on it when
she was helping me put up some curtain rods.

Is this the way most runners breathe?

[]

Quoted message said:

-- Dan

Singers learn that method early also. As the choir director
puts it, breath thru your belly!

--
Ed Prochak running faqs.orgrunning faqOpen ↗
netiquette psg.comemily.htmlOpen ↗
--
"Two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less travelled by
and that has made all the difference."
robert frost

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is really weird, writing about breathing, something
which you'd

think

Quoted message said:

should be totally unconscious and right at all times...

There are many things I need to concentrate on during a race
and I confess to never giving breathing a thought. I control
my pace which controls my breathing - basic physiology. I
could not tell you if I'm 2 in 2 out or 22 in and 24 out.
Maybe if I could learn to count I can make it to the
Olympics. 😉

-DougF

"Ed Prochak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Singers learn that method early also. As the choir
director puts it,

breath

Quoted message said:

thru your belly!

That opening healed over on me.🙂

-DougF

It is a normal response. Lung/assisting muscle relaxation
tension is a detailed complex function which dependes
closely to neurotransmiters being released and other
details. You are within normal ranges of normality in what
you describe.

================================================================

vihagra.comvihagra.comOpen ↗

(no shipping charges) [samples]

"OK joggers, next lesson.........blinking!"

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That opening healed over on me.🙂

Too bad your butt didn't heal closed, you'd be celibate
for a change.

I have noticed when I'm at about a 6:00 mile pace that I can
control my breathing by "keeping deep in my chest". That's
my way of trying to describe a phenomenon. Really, what i'm
saying is that I breathe very shallow, as if the bottom of
my lungs are taking the breath in, not the top (all though I
know this is not true - just trying to describe). I have
found that learning to breathe like this has actually
INREASED my stamina and lung capacity. So, learning to
control your breathing is just as important to developing as
is increasing mileage and speed!

Is that a fancy way of saying "fire one off"?

Quoted message said:

It is a normal response. Lung/assisting muscle relaxation
tension is a detailed complex function which dependes
closely to neurotransmiters being released and other
details. You are within normal ranges of normality in what
you describe.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

There are many things I need to concentrate on during a
race and I confess to never giving breathing a thought. I
control my pace which controls my breathing - basic
physiology. I could not tell you if I'm 2 in 2 out or 22
in and 24 out. Maybe if I could learn to count I can make
it to the Olympics. 😉

At the other extreme is Matt on the Ultra List, who
experiments with *not* breathing as an important part of his
Hardrock preparation.

Supposedly most elite runners (and me, too) sync up their
breathing with their cadence in some manner. Breathing is
one of the many system checks I rotate through as I run. I
feel each breath. As you know, it's quite busy up in the
cockpit during a race.

And yes, it much easier if you reopen that little hole -- I
find a 1/4" masonry bit works best.

Nice work at Laurel.

-- Dan

Doug Freese said:

Maybe if I could learn to count I can make it to the
Olympics. 😉

Yikes, counting's an Olympic sport now, too? 😉 😉

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope