What is facing a frame

A shy person asked:

Quoted message said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a
few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the
threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

This is one of the many technical terms explained in my online Bicycle
Glossary. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_e-f.html#facing

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/glossary" Brown
+------------------------------------------+
| On Monday, when the sun is hot, |
| I wonder to myself a lot: |
| 'Now is it true, or is it not, |
| 'That what is which and which is what?' |
| --A. A. Milne |
+------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Me <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a
few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the
threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes for the
head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work is less
important now than in the past.

Me said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a
few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the
threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Grinding material from the outer faces of the bottom bracket shell to make
them level and parallel*. Park Tools have more info on their website.

The same thing is done with head tubes for headsets.

* I still don't understand how this could help with a Record BB that binds
even when the right cup is loose so nothing touches either face. (That
was just an experiment; I would normally fully tighten the right side).

BTW, PTFE tape wasn't effective enough, so I used medium-strength Loctite
Threadlocker on the last few threads of the left cup and grease on the
rest. A reasonable compromise, I think. It's interesting that some BB's
are pre-coated with thread-lock.

~PB

When you haven't ridden in a long time and your bike is mocking and guilting
you, eventually you have to face it.

HTH,
--
BS (no, really)

Pete Biggs said:

Me said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a
few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the
threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Grinding material from the outer faces of the bottom bracket shell to make
them level and parallel*. Park Tools have more info on their website.

The same thing is done with head tubes for headsets.

* I still don't understand how this could help with a Record BB that binds
even when the right cup is loose so nothing touches either face. (That
was just an experiment; I would normally fully tighten the right side).

BTW, PTFE tape wasn't effective enough, so I used medium-strength Loctite
Threadlocker on the last few threads of the left cup and grease on the
rest. A reasonable compromise, I think. It's interesting that some BB's
are pre-coated with thread-lock.

well, yes, it's a polymeric goo that binds in the threads, but it's not
the same material as classic loctite. talking of which, i've just
disassembled the bb of a frame i bought at sf veloswap. that thing had
been fully loctited in there - the threads had been fully saturated. it
answered pete biggs' recent question about loctite's effectiveness as a
sealant - yes, it absolutely is. but is it necessary to have a bb so
locked that it requires 400 ft.lbs to break it? absolutely not. i'd
love to meet the person that did it.

Quoted message said:

~PB

Quoted message said:

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes for the
head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work is less
important now than in the past.

In what parallel universe? Just as important today as itever was.

Grinding material from the outer faces of the bottom bracket shell to make
them level and parallel*. Park Tools have more info on their website.

the material is not ground but milled.
Phil brown

"Phil Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes for

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work is less
important now than in the past.

In what parallel universe? Just as important today as itever was.

Some of the newer cartridge bottom brackets (like Phil Wood and others) use
mounting rings that don't contact the outer faces of the bottom bracket
shell, they just fit inside, so there is no point in facing the bb if you
are using one of these. If your bottom bracket tightens against the shell,
it's still needed. Likewise, all the headsets I have seen contact the faces
of the headtube so facing would still be needed here.
Lyle

jim beam said:

Pete Biggs said:

Me said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame
a
few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing
the threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Grinding material from the outer faces of the bottom bracket shell
to make them level and parallel*. Park Tools have more info on
their website.

The same thing is done with head tubes for headsets.

* I still don't understand how this could help with a Record BB that
binds even when the right cup is loose so nothing touches either
face. (That was just an experiment; I would normally fully tighten
the right side).

BTW, PTFE tape wasn't effective enough, so I used medium-strength
Loctite Threadlocker on the last few threads of the left cup and
grease on the rest. A reasonable compromise, I think. It's
interesting that some BB's are pre-coated with thread-lock.

well, yes, it's a polymeric goo that binds in the threads, but it's
not
the same material as classic loctite. talking of which, i've just
disassembled the bb of a frame i bought at sf veloswap. that thing
had been fully loctited in there - the threads had been fully
saturated. it answered pete biggs' recent question about loctite's
effectiveness as a sealant - yes, it absolutely is. but is it
necessary to have a bb so locked that it requires 400 ft.lbs to break
it? absolutely not. i'd
love to meet the person that did it.

Do you think it was the Full Strength Loctite?

Yesterday I had an unexpected result from the above action (small amount
of threadlock): Cycled 12 miles and the cup tightened! I didn't expect
it to turn in that direction, but perhaps the threadlock didn't work
because the shell wasn't properly de-greased (from using grease on rest of
cup). You can guess what I'm trying next.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

jim beam said:

Pete Biggs said:

Me wrote:

>Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame
>a
>few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing
>the threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Grinding material from the outer faces of the bottom bracket shell
to make them level and parallel*. Park Tools have more info on
their website.

The same thing is done with head tubes for headsets.

* I still don't understand how this could help with a Record BB that
binds even when the right cup is loose so nothing touches either
face. (That was just an experiment; I would normally fully tighten
the right side).

BTW, PTFE tape wasn't effective enough, so I used medium-strength
Loctite Threadlocker on the last few threads of the left cup and
grease on the rest. A reasonable compromise, I think. It's
interesting that some BB's are pre-coated with thread-lock.

well, yes, it's a polymeric goo that binds in the threads, but it's
not
the same material as classic loctite. talking of which, i've just
disassembled the bb of a frame i bought at sf veloswap. that thing
had been fully loctited in there - the threads had been fully
saturated. it answered pete biggs' recent question about loctite's
effectiveness as a sealant - yes, it absolutely is. but is it
necessary to have a bb so locked that it requires 400 ft.lbs to break
it? absolutely not. i'd
love to meet the person that did it.

Do you think it was the Full Strength Loctite?

my suspicion is that it was the blue "medium strength" variety. the
colors fade after cure so you can't really tell.

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I had an unexpected result from the above action (small amount
of threadlock): Cycled 12 miles and the cup tightened! I didn't expect
it to turn in that direction, but perhaps the threadlock didn't work
because the shell wasn't properly de-greased (from using grease on rest of
cup). You can guess what I'm trying next.

if you must, use one of the low strength versions. all you want to
achieve is a binding of the thread, not permanent fixture! all the bb's
i've seen that have "adjusted" themselves in use were not fitted
correctly. i've never had a problem with italian threaded bb's for example.

Quoted message said:

~PB

Hi Pete, I followed the other thread about this dilemma of yours (no
pun intended) and I'm thinking that you're not going to have success no
matter what.

I assuming that this was a new Record BB you had gotten, so it did come
with some guidlines on installation. If memory serves me correctly,
both cups need to be tightened to something like 50 ft lbs. Surely in
your case, this just ain't gonna work.

As Peter mentioned earlier, he's seen Merlin Frames that have been
problematic, and you've evidently gotten one of these. By deviating
from proper installation with homemade fixes/bandages, it's doubtful
that this will ever work correctly.

It sounds to me, that even if you hypothetically had used a Phil Wood
BB, which doesn't have a Flanged Cup either side, and wouldn't require
the frame being faced at all, you'd still have the same set of
circumstances I'm sure of binding.

Evidently, the Frame's Bottom bracket Shell has not been correctly
threaded from the factory, in that the BB is canted within the frame
causing this bind.

If the frame had been bought brand new, I definitely would've returned
this frame to the dealer, and let them inspect this. They'll know
quixkly enough whether the frame was not properly made. Provided no
cross threading has occured to shell, (They'll know this) I don't see
why they would be reluctant to replace this frame, and go to bat with
the manufacturer for you.

Had the Record Bottom Bracket been bought used (or even if not) I
would've also carefully inspected the spindle insuring too, that it
wasn't in some way bent/damaged.

A few months back, I myself installed a 2004 Record BB to an NOS Schwinn
50th Paramount Frame (I understand the BB shell is a Takahashi on these)
and I myself didn't face the right side frame shell, and installation of
the BB went perfectly. I saw no need of facing the right side. Hope
all works out for you, Mark

John Dacey said:

Apart from the material from which the center sleeve is made, Record
road spindles are also different from those found in the Chorus model.
Campagnolo literature describes the Record spindle as "oversize", a
feature missing from Chorus whose spindles are a constant diameter in
the area between the left and right bearings. See a 102 mm Record
spindle swollen with pride here:

http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/record102bb.jpg

Is that also true of the Triple version?

~PB

A Muzi said:

Those product groups are very very different.
Record and Chorus vary only in the carbon outer cover.
Inside they both have premium quality double bearing on the
right side and a forged spindle. The left bearing is an SKF
61903- -same as a Phil Wood. All Campagnolo BB bearings are
well lubricated as delivered.

The AC-S/AC-H (S=solid, H=hollow otherwise same part) is
nicer than other inexpensive BBs in that it has a true
bearing (in some other brands the steel case is actually the
outer bearing race). The spindle is formed in one
operation. Record/Chorus spindle are crisply machined from
a forged blank.

AC-S and AC-H are made in 111 and 115. Record and Chorus
are 102 with a _asymmetric_ 111 triple option.

Interesting fact for those considering upgrading from lower models:
Chainline of Chrorus/Record Triple crankset (with 111 asymmetric BB) is
1.5 mm further out than Centaur/Veloce/Mirage's with 111mm symmetric BB.

Quoted message said:

Record/Chorus are very sensitive to threading and facing
errors. Moreso than other units.

And Ti frames often exhibit that problem. Their BB and head
tubes are machined properly but warp during welding.

I guess that's what's happened to mine.

Thanks for the notes.

~PB

Mark D said:

Hi Pete, I followed the other thread about this dilemma of yours (no
pun intended) and I'm thinking that you're not going to have success
no matter what.

I assuming that this was a new Record BB you had gotten,

That's right.

Quoted message said:

so it did
come with some guidlines on installation.

Yes and I've followed them, except I'm using even less torque than they
advise.......

Campagnolo say: "If you should notice an increase in axle pin
rotation friction, the bb cage may be deformed or the supports are no
longer axial... ...Apply threadlock, then retighten to...22 lb ft."

Quoted message said:

If memory serves me
correctly, both cups need to be tightened to something like 50 ft
lbs. Surely in your case, this just ain't gonna work.

Well remembered (it's 70 Nm or 51.6 ft lbs). Agreed, it ain't gonna work
at 50 ft lbs without chronic binding, but hopefully that tightness won't
be necessary.

Quoted message said:

As Peter mentioned earlier, he's seen Merlin Frames that have been
problematic, and you've evidently gotten one of these.

No, mine is a Raleigh Special Products Timet (UK). It was NOS (one of the
last of Raleigh's British-handbuilt jobs, probably been hanging around in
the warehouse for a few years), and the last the dealer had in the size.
I got a great deal and I'm otherwise happy with the frame. It was better
than anything else I could afford and frames of exactly this shape and
size aren't as common as I would like.

I've already been using it for a couple of years. Previous BB was a
Centaur, which had the same problem, though to a lesser extent. I thought
the shell faces were to blame.

Since it may wear out prematurely (if I end up having to have it tighter),
I was silly for getting a Record BB instead of a Chorus, and perhaps silly
to upgrade from Veloce cranks & Centaur BB in the first place. But
nevermind, I have more important things in life to worry about right now
:-)

There are still a few things to try, and I can always go back to using the
previous components, if it comes it that. Centaur BBs are not expensive
to replace.

Thanks for your thoughts.

cheers
~PB

Ken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Me <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a
few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the
threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes for the
head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work is less
important now than in the past.

I thought that it meant to stand in front of it and look straight at it.

Andres

andres muro said:

Ken <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Me <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame
a few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing
the threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them
perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes
for the head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work
is less important now than in the past.

I thought that it meant to stand in front of it and look straight at
it.

Beat you to it by ~25 hours.

(And a bit better, IIDSSM.)

--
BS (no, really)

"B i l l S o r n s o n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

andres muro said:

Ken <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Me <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:
> Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame
> a few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing
> the threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Facing is shaving the outer edges of the bottom bracket to make them

Quoted message said:

perfectly parallel before you install the bearing cups. Same goes
for the head tube before you install the headset. This kind of work
is less important now than in the past.

I thought that it meant to stand in front of it and look straight at
it.

Beat you to it by ~25 hours.

(And a bit better, IIDSSM.)

OOOHPS! you're right. i'm slow on the uptake

Since it may wear out prematurely (if I end up having to have it
tighter), I was silly for getting a Record BB instead of a Chorus, and
perhaps silly to upgrade from Veloce cranks & Centaur BB in the first
place. But nevermind, I have more important things in life to worry
about right now
:-)
There are still a few things to try, and I can always go back to using
the previous components, if it comes it that. Centaur BBs are not
expensive to replace.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed Pete, I understand.

I have the Campy Veloce Crank on my Bianchi Campione, and I believe the
BB on the Bianchi is the AC-H model.

The only differences I call see between the Record, and Chorus BB is the
weight, and the price. Otherwise, they're virtually the same in
construction (Carbon shell vs Alu Shell)

You can always save the Record BB for another build up if need be. Mark

Me said:

Hi, a quick one. I read with interest the post about facing a frame a

Quoted message said:

few days ago. What exactly is facing a frame? I know what chasing the

Quoted message said:

threads in a bb but can someone give me a simple definition?

Facing is something that people who can't afford Phil Wood bottom
brackets have to do to their frames.

Regards,

Suzy

Pete Biggs:

Quoted message said:

Since it may wear out prematurely (if I end up having to have it
tighter), I was silly for getting a Record BB instead of a Chorus, and
perhaps silly to upgrade from Veloce cranks & Centaur BB in the first
place. But nevermind, I have more important things in life to worry
about right now
There are still a few things to try, and I can always go back to using
the previous components, if it comes it that. Centaur BBs are not
expensive to replace.

Mark D said:

Agreed Pete, I understand.
I have the Campy Veloce Crank on my Bianchi Campione, and I believe the
BB on the Bianchi is the AC-H model.
The only differences I call see between the Record, and Chorus BB is the
weight, and the price. Otherwise, they're virtually the same in
construction (Carbon shell vs Alu Shell)
You can always save the Record BB for another build up if need be. Mark

Those product groups are very very different.
Record and Chorus vary only in the carbon outer cover.
Inside they both have premium quality double bearing on the
right side and a forged spindle. The left bearing is an SKF
61903- -same as a Phil Wood. All Campagnolo BB bearings are
well lubricated as delivered.

The AC-S/AC-H (S=solid, H=hollow otherwise same part) is
nicer than other inexpensive BBs in that it has a true
bearing (in some other brands the steel case is actually the
outer bearing race). The spindle is formed in one
operation. Record/Chorus spindle are crisply machined from
a forged blank.

AC-S and AC-H are made in 111 and 115. Record and Chorus
are 102 with a _asymmetric_ 111 triple option.

Record/Chorus are very sensitive to threading and facing
errors. Moreso than other units.

And Ti frames often exhibit that problem. Their BB and head
tubes are machined properly but warp during welding.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971