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What happens if there's a dead sheep upstream?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
12 September 2005
Last activity
22 September 2005
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Mark Manning
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  1. Just returned from a week's backpacking and wild-camping in the
    Far Eastern Fells (TR to follow).

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep). One
    evening in Fusedale, I was going down to the beck to wash and collect water,
    when a motion a couple of pools up caught my eye. Here was a badger (first
    time I've ever seen one live) either trying to drag a sheep carcass out
    of the water, or (more likely) tear some of the flesh off. So I moved a
    few pools *above* the sheep before collecting water! Nice to see that
    Mr/Ms Brock was ensuring I realised where the clean water was! :-)

    Mark
    --
    Mark Manning [email hidden]

  2. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
    Mark Manning <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    Just returned from a week's backpacking and wild-camping in the
    Far Eastern Fells (TR to follow).

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    This is nice in theory, but exactly =how far= upstream are you prepared
    to walk .. all the way to the source?? I've several times found dead
    sheep (or remnants thereof) in brooks around the Clee Hills .. probably
    because the brooks tend to be at the bottom of valleys (or gullies)
    which is where the rubbish collects. Those brooks go for miles, before
    getting to the Teme or the Rea, and eventually the Severn.

    Of course, if you saw what the =live= sheep do in them, you wouldn't
    feel so bad about the dead ones ...

    <snip>

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

  3. An environmental health officer writes: Verocytotoxic Escherischia
    coli; Salmonella typhi, Cryptosporidium ... there are always filters
    and disinfectant tablets! Alternatively, play the odds that you'll be
    fine and don't look too far upstream. (Admits to drinking from streams
    in upland areas without drastic effects to date.)

  4. I'm not following this thread any further 8^/

    Jim Ford

  5. "Mark Manning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    What's happened to the theory (1950s era) that oxygenation of stream water
    as it splashed downhill got rid of the nasties from dead sheep etc.?
    (Can't say I ever really trusted it!)
    --
    M Stewart
    Milton Keynes, UK
    http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

  6. "Mark Manning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    What's happened to the theory (1950s era) that oxygenation of stream water
    as it splashed downhill got rid of the nasties from dead sheep etc.?
    (Can't say I ever really trusted it!)
    --
    M Stewart
    Milton Keynes, UK
    http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

  7. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
    wonderful person Jim Ford <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not following this thread any further 8^/

    Remember ..
    What's worse than finding a maggot in your apple? ......

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

  8. GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

    Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
    Mark Manning <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    Just returned from a week's backpacking and wild-camping in the
    Far Eastern Fells (TR to follow).

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    This is nice in theory, but exactly =how far= upstream are you prepared
    to walk .. all the way to the source?? I've several times found dead
    sheep (or remnants thereof) in brooks around the Clee Hills .. probably
    because the brooks tend to be at the bottom of valleys (or gullies)
    which is where the rubbish collects. Those brooks go for miles, before
    getting to the Teme or the Rea, and eventually the Severn.

    Of course, if you saw what the =live= sheep do in them, you wouldn't
    feel so bad about the dead ones ...

    <snip>

    This is surely the reason that God invented 12% tincture of potassium
    iodide....

  9. Malcolm Stewart said:

    "Mark Manning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    What's happened to the theory (1950s era) that oxygenation of stream water
    as it splashed downhill got rid of the nasties from dead sheep etc.?
    (Can't say I ever really trusted it!)

    I support it - all we are trying to determine is *how far* downstream
    you have to be...

  10. GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

    Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
    wonderful person Jim Ford <[email hidden]> said

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not following this thread any further 8^/

    Remember ..
    What's worse than finding a maggot in your apple? ......

    Finding half a maggot 🙂

    I remember finding a bloated sheep 50 metres up a a stream after drinking
    heavily from the waterfall at the bottom of the slope. That was 15 or so
    years ago and I still drink from streams when walking on the hill. I
    usually look for somewhere that is flowing and well oxygenated rather than
    slow flowing places though.

    --

    Don`t Worry, Be Happy
    Sandy
    --
    E-Mail:- [email hidden]
    Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk
    Looking for a webhost? Try http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=2966019

  11. "Alan Dicey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Malcolm Stewart said:

    "Mark Manning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    What's happened to the theory (1950s era) that oxygenation of stream
    water
    as it splashed downhill got rid of the nasties from dead sheep etc.?
    (Can't say I ever really trusted it!)

    I support it - all we are trying to determine is *how far* downstream you
    have to be...

    Just thinking there has been prrivate water upplies on estates and farms in
    Scotland for years, and until more recently when Scottish Waters gone on a
    disinfectant plant spawning spree some areas were supplied with what was
    pretty much stream water, You got Peat coloured water at Blair Atholl until
    about 6 years ago.

    Surley there must have been various undesireables up stream of the
    collection points for them for many years,.

  12. Mark Manning said:

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep). One
    evening in Fusedale, I was going down to the beck to wash and collect water,
    when a motion a couple of pools up caught my eye. Here was a badger (first
    time I've ever seen one live) either trying to drag a sheep carcass out
    of the water, or (more likely) tear some of the flesh off. So I moved a
    few pools *above* the sheep before collecting water! Nice to see that
    Mr/Ms Brock was ensuring I realised where the clean water was! :-)

    I wouldn't worry. Healthy rivers are full of active biology, like fish
    who excrete their body wastes into the water. People are animals too,
    and if you don't spend your life sterilising everything then you should
    be suitably resistant to most of the bugs generally present in the
    environment.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  13. GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

    I've several times found dead
    sheep (or remnants thereof) in brooks around the Clee Hills .. probably
    because the brooks tend to be at the bottom of valleys (or gullies)
    which is where the rubbish collects.

    Sick animals probably go there before they die because they need a supply
    of water without having to move around too much.
    --
    Rudi Winter, Aberystwyth, Wales

  14. In message <[email hidden]>, Niall
    Wallace <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    "Alan Dicey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Malcolm Stewart said:

    "Mark Manning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    > People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    >to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    What's happened to the theory (1950s era) that oxygenation of stream
    water
    as it splashed downhill got rid of the nasties from dead sheep etc.?
    (Can't say I ever really trusted it!)

    I support it - all we are trying to determine is *how far* downstream you
    have to be...

    Just thinking there has been prrivate water upplies on estates and farms in
    Scotland for years, and until more recently when Scottish Waters gone on a
    disinfectant plant spawning spree some areas were supplied with what was
    pretty much stream water, You got Peat coloured water at Blair Atholl until
    about 6 years ago.

    Surley there must have been various undesireables up stream of the
    collection points for them for many years,.

    I live in the Highlands and have a private unfiltered supply. Sometimes
    the water is very peaty. It's checked by Scottish Water every decade or
    so and has always come up okay. I'd be surprised if there weren't some
    undesirables at times though.

    The main effect of drinking it is that I notice how foul tap water is in
    most other places.

  15. "Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mark Manning said:

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).
    One
    evening in Fusedale, I was going down to the beck to wash and collect
    water,
    when a motion a couple of pools up caught my eye. Here was a badger
    (first
    time I've ever seen one live) either trying to drag a sheep carcass out
    of the water, or (more likely) tear some of the flesh off. So I moved a
    few pools *above* the sheep before collecting water! Nice to see that
    Mr/Ms Brock was ensuring I realised where the clean water was! :-)

    I wouldn't worry. Healthy rivers are full of active biology, like fish
    who excrete their body wastes into the water. People are animals too, and
    if you don't spend your life sterilising everything then you should be
    suitably resistant to most of the bugs generally present in the
    environment.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/


    A little bit of dirt never hurt anybody.

  16. "Chris Townsend" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Niall
    Wallace <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    "Alan Dicey" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Malcolm Stewart wrote:
    > "Mark Manning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >> People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    >>to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).
    >
    >
    > What's happened to the theory (1950s era) that oxygenation of stream
    > water
    > as it splashed downhill got rid of the nasties from dead sheep etc.?
    > (Can't say I ever really trusted it!)

    I support it - all we are trying to determine is *how far* downstream
    you
    have to be...

    Just thinking there has been prrivate water upplies on estates and farms
    in
    Scotland for years, and until more recently when Scottish Waters gone on a
    disinfectant plant spawning spree some areas were supplied with what was
    pretty much stream water, You got Peat coloured water at Blair Atholl
    until
    about 6 years ago.

    Surley there must have been various undesireables up stream of the
    collection points for them for many years,.

    I live in the Highlands and have a private unfiltered supply. Sometimes
    the water is very peaty. It's checked by Scottish Water every decade or so
    and has always come up okay. I'd be surprised if there weren't some
    undesirables at times though.

    The main effect of drinking it is that I notice how foul tap water is in
    most other places.

    It was bad enough when we had our water mains changed here, The only reason
    i can drink it is cos i add robinsons.

    Niall

  17. Malcolm Stewart said:

    "Mark Manning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    People who drink straight from the streams, like me, might scan
    to check there are no up-stream causes of pollution (like dead sheep).

    What's happened to the theory (1950s era) that oxygenation of stream water
    as it splashed downhill got rid of the nasties from dead sheep etc.?
    (Can't say I ever really trusted it!

    I was staying at Eskdale Youth Hostel about 10 years back, and picked
    up a pamphlet that had obviously been produced for school parties
    staying there. Apart from outlining what has become one of my favourite
    walks (Scafell Pike from Brotherikeld), it mentioned it was safe to
    drink stream water from streams above a certain altitude (2500 ft IIRC)
    providing you took it from a fast flowing section of the stream.

    Given the quantity of OTT precautions that surrounded school trips even
    then, I can't see someone telling a school party this unless it was
    accurate.

    John

  18. In message <[email hidden]>

    Michael Hobby said:


    "Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Mark Manning wrote:


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I wouldn't worry. Healthy rivers are full of active biology, like
    fish who excrete their body wastes into the water. People are
    animals too, and if you don't spend your life sterilising
    everything then you should be suitably resistant to most of the
    bugs generally present in the environment.

    Pete.


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    A little bit of dirt never hurt anybody.

    The trouble with extrapolation is that you can get to proposing absurd
    positions.

    As an immunologist I find that the above statements have simply gone too
    far.

    For many people with a healthy immune system, they can tolerate exposure
    to some doses of pathogens, most of the time....

    However, it is not a coincidence that in those countries that have good
    clean water supplies that mortality rates, particularly infant mortality
    rates, are much lower.

    But the immune systems of most healthy adults can also be overcome by a
    big enough dose of most pathogens.

    So the difficult question is knowing where to draw the line. In the case
    of Pete's statement 'if you don't spend your life sterilising everything
    then you should be suitably resistant to most of the bugs generally
    present in the environment' I can point you to environments in parts
    of the world where the whole of the local population is chronically
    infected with water borne parasites and as a consequence have major
    morbidity and increased mortality.

    --
    o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
    <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
    "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
    ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

  19. Mike Clark said:

    So the difficult question is knowing where to draw the line. In the case
    of Pete's statement 'if you don't spend your life sterilising everything
    then you should be suitably resistant to most of the bugs generally
    present in the environment' I can point you to environments in parts
    of the world where the whole of the local population is chronically
    infected with water borne parasites and as a consequence have major
    morbidity and increased mortality.

    This is true. I should certainly have added the caveat about the
    statement being in the context of the UK uplands, and even then watered
    it down a bit.

    However, it remains the case that you really don't have to check a UK
    mountain water course from the source for dead sheep or deer etc. before
    you can have a drink from it /reasonably/ confident that it won't give
    you something horrible.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  20. In message <[email hidden]>

    Peter Clinch said:
    Mike Clark said:

    So the difficult question is knowing where to draw the line. In the
    case of Pete's statement 'if you don't spend your life sterilising
    everything then you should be suitably resistant to most of the
    bugs generally present in the environment' I can point you to
    environments in parts of the world where the whole of the local
    population is chronically infected with water borne parasites and as
    a consequence have major morbidity and increased mortality.

    This is true. I should certainly have added the caveat about the
    statement being in the context of the UK uplands, and even then
    watered it down a bit.

    I understood what you intended as I hope did most others.

    Quoted message said:


    However, it remains the case that you really don't have to check a UK
    mountain water course from the source for dead sheep or deer etc.
    before you can have a drink from it /reasonably/ confident that it
    won't give you something horrible.

    Pete.

    The '/reasonably/ confident' aspect is to some extent a function of
    human population density, rather than of animal borne diseases. For
    example in many alpine ski resorts, despite being fed by high mountain
    streams, the frequency of water borne infections is now very high.
    Contamination of water courses with Giardia transmitted most probably by
    humans is certainly on the increase in such resorts.

    --
    o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
    <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
    "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
    ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

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