What % grade?

Benjamin Lewis said:

Here is a list of some of the steepest paved roads in the United States:

1. Honokaa-Waipio Road (near Waipio, HI, maximum grade 45%)*
2. Canton Avenue (between Coast and Hampshire, Pittsburgh, PA, 37%)
3. 28th Street (between Gaffey and Peck, Los Angeles, CA, 33.3%)
4. Eldred Street (west of Avenue 48, Los Angeles, CA, 33%)
5. Baxter Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)
5. Fargo Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)

I don't have to visualise climbing Fargo Street. I've walked it- never
ridden it, though. My depth perception starts playing tricks on my
balance... a polite way of saying "I'm chicken".

Have a look:
http://www.lawheelmen.org/fargo.htm
In particular:
http://www.lawheelmen.org/fargo/706vm.jpg
*Gurk*

Jeff

Benjamin Lewis said:

Here is a list of some of the steepest paved roads in the United States:

1. Honokaa-Waipio Road (near Waipio, HI, maximum grade 45%)*
2. Canton Avenue (between Coast and Hampshire, Pittsburgh, PA, 37%)
3. 28th Street (between Gaffey and Peck, Los Angeles, CA, 33.3%)
4. Eldred Street (west of Avenue 48, Los Angeles, CA, 33%)
5. Baxter Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)
5. Fargo Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)
5. Maria Avenue (north of Chestnut, Spring Valley (near San Diego), CA,
32%)
8. Dornbush Street (between Bricelyn and Vidette, Pittsburgh, PA, 31.98%)

Aye, but what is the steepest paved mile?

Magnolia Road from the turn in Boulder Canyon averages 21.7% though the
total 4.7 mile climb is a mere 8.8%.

JeffWills said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Here is a list of some of the steepest paved roads in the United States:

1. Honokaa-Waipio Road (near Waipio, HI, maximum grade 45%)*
2. Canton Avenue (between Coast and Hampshire, Pittsburgh, PA, 37%)
3. 28th Street (between Gaffey and Peck, Los Angeles, CA, 33.3%)
4. Eldred Street (west of Avenue 48, Los Angeles, CA, 33%)
5. Baxter Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)
5. Fargo Street (between Alvarado and Allesandro, Los Angeles, CA, 32%)

I don't have to visualise climbing Fargo Street. I've walked it- never
ridden it, though. My depth perception starts playing tricks on my
balance... a polite way of saying "I'm chicken".

Have a look:
http://www.lawheelmen.org/fargo.htm
In particular:
http://www.lawheelmen.org/fargo/706vm.jpg
*Gurk*

Jeff

Dear Jeff,

While Fargo Street is far beyond me, I keep noticing that
the apparent angles in picture after picture indicate about
15.5-16 degrees and 27-28%, not the 16.7-18.2 degrees for
the usual figures that range from 30% to 33%.

The slits in that dark red fence look like a pretty good
right angle and hill angle next to the street, and I add
them up as 9.5 + 6.3 degrees = 15.8 degrees = 28.3% grade by
the more generous grade calculation.

It may be the angle of the camera, but I'm curious how and
if anyone has actually measured the grade on that short (and
extremely steep) street.

Carl Fogel

Peter said:

Quoted message said:

So I live in South Florida (yes, home of the hurricanes). Big bridges
over big expanses of water that expect to, at times, have cruise ships
pass underneath. We have several I can name, where I can assure you,
these rises are at least 20-30 degree angles from level.

I think you're overestimating the angle of those bridges. None of the
streets in San Francisco is as steep as 20° and some of those are rather
difficult to walk up. When we were evaluating plans for a bridge
overcrossing the engineers indicated that the grade should be kept at or
under 5% (2.9°) if at all possible.

Quoted message said:

That's really all I'm getting at. They see the tour on TV, and wonder
"how steep is the climb" and you can say "it's like this road" and they
say, "that's all?" and you say "yeah, for 13.8 miles!" or they say
"it's only a 2 mile climb!" and you can say "yeah, like xxyy bridge..."
to give them perspective...

Giving the angle in degrees doesn't do that since most people have no
idea what the angle might be for local roads or bridges; and they'll
frequently overestimate just like you did above. OTOH, the percent
grade is frequently given on roads - usually at the start of the descent
where truckers are warned to "Use Low Gears, 7% Grade". This gives a
good comparison to grade values specified for some of the tour climbs.

Seems like the majority here says I'm way overestimating the angles I'm
seeing here. Not one to insist I'm right when it appears I'm not, it
just seems to me that when I look at say, the bridge on the Rickenbacker
Causeway in Miami, or the Blue Heron bridge in Riviera Beach in Florida
(if anyone is local, please let me know what you think), when I see them
from the (flat) road, from the side, they appear to be major angles,
somewhere in the realm of 30 degrees. But then again, looks can
certainly be deceiving, and the math don't lie.

Anyone know what the % grade or angle of Lombard St in San Fran is?
I've climbed that one and it would give me an interesting perspective...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:16:45 -0600, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I live in South Florida (yes, home of the hurricanes). Big bridges
over big expanses of water that expect to, at times, have cruise ships
pass underneath. We have several I can name, where I can assure you,
these rises are at least 20-30 degree angles from level.

[snip]

Dear Magic,

Here's an angled view of the Sunshine Skyway bridge, which
is probably the kind of bridge that you have in mind:

http://www.vandoren.net/fpm/skyway/skydm077.jpg

Unfortunately, the five pages of other pictures fail to show
the bridge from a true side angle.

The apparent angle on our left is about 8 degrees.

(The bridge angle on the left in the picture is about 9.3
degrees, but about 1.3 degrees of that is picture tilt,
judging by the water at the bridge).

This 8-degree angle is exaggerated considerably by the
camera angle to the bridge.

Driving up such bridges does give an impression of steepness
because there's nothing else visible--the road just aims at
the sky, without the familiar mountainside to one side or
peak dead ahead.

Carl Fogel

Aha! Here's a much larger picture of the Sunshine Skyway
from a better angle:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/304964242/304966519UOTZvm#

The water seems to be dead level in the picture.

The left side of the bridge has an apparent angle of about 3
degrees, while the right side has an apparent angle of about
5.3 degrees.

The bridge span lengths indicate that it's symmetrical:

span lengths of main bridge
42.70 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 164.60 m -
365.80 m -
164.60 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 42.70 m

http://en.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?ID=s0000263

Comparing the gaps in the pylons indicates that the camera
angle is still short of 90 degrees, but it's reasonable to
predict symmetrical bridge approaches would be around 3.5 to
4.5 degrees, or 6 to 8% grade.

Carl Fogel

Carl, I think you just hit the nail on (my) head... The angles I'm
usually seeing these bridges from is about the first picture you posted.
Not from straight on from the middle of the water in the center of the
span. From the road I'm on, and the angle I'm looking at (if you can
picture it, heading say, south, on the road, toward the entrance of the
bridge, about 1/2-3/4 mile from that point (see below...) where the
center is about 1/2 mile from the road, and I'm seeing it , it does
appear way steeper. Now I just need to get out the kayak, paddle out to
the middle of the bay, and take a "real" look at it ;-)

bridge beg..............mid span............end span
.. 1/2-3/4 mile
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
me at .5mi from beginning of bridge

Dave R said:

Anyone know what the % grade or angle of Lombard St in San Fran is?
I've climbed that one and it would give me an interesting perspective...

http://www.sfcvb.org/travel_media/press.asp?rid=98&cid=5
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Dave R said:

Peter said:

Quoted message said:

So I live in South Florida (yes, home of the hurricanes). Big bridges
over big expanses of water that expect to, at times, have cruise ships
pass underneath. We have several I can name, where I can assure you,
these rises are at least 20-30 degree angles from level.

I think you're overestimating the angle of those bridges. None of the
streets in San Francisco is as steep as 20° and some of those are rather
difficult to walk up. When we were evaluating plans for a bridge
overcrossing the engineers indicated that the grade should be kept at or
under 5% (2.9°) if at all possible.

Quoted message said:

That's really all I'm getting at. They see the tour on TV, and wonder
"how steep is the climb" and you can say "it's like this road" and they
say, "that's all?" and you say "yeah, for 13.8 miles!" or they say
"it's only a 2 mile climb!" and you can say "yeah, like xxyy bridge..."
to give them perspective...

Giving the angle in degrees doesn't do that since most people have no
idea what the angle might be for local roads or bridges; and they'll
frequently overestimate just like you did above. OTOH, the percent
grade is frequently given on roads - usually at the start of the descent
where truckers are warned to "Use Low Gears, 7% Grade". This gives a
good comparison to grade values specified for some of the tour climbs.

Seems like the majority here says I'm way overestimating the angles I'm
seeing here. Not one to insist I'm right when it appears I'm not, it
just seems to me that when I look at say, the bridge on the Rickenbacker
Causeway in Miami, or the Blue Heron bridge in Riviera Beach in Florida
(if anyone is local, please let me know what you think), when I see them
from the (flat) road, from the side, they appear to be major angles,
somewhere in the realm of 30 degrees. But then again, looks can
certainly be deceiving, and the math don't lie.

Anyone know what the % grade or angle of Lombard St in San Fran is?
I've climbed that one and it would give me an interesting perspective...

Dear Dave,

Here's a side view of Rickenbacker Causeway:

http://www.southeastroads.com/florida900/fl-913_nb_rickenbacker_causeway_07.jpg

You can use this screen protractor to check the angles:

http://www.markus-bader.de/MB-Ruler

On the left, the apparent angle is about 6.5 degrees. On the
right, it's about 3.5 degrees. That's around 6% to 11.5%
grade.

The skyscrapers and the water suggest that the camera was
just about dead level.

The cars visible on the right side indicate that bridge is
angling away from the camera into the distance to our left,
which explains why the apparent angle on one side differs
from the angle on the other.

Since this is a state highway, not an interstate, it's more
likely that Highway 913 across Rickenbacker Causeway would
be steeper than I-275 over the Sunshine Skyway.

I'm willing to believe that these bridges do indeed look
steeper when you ride or drive out on them and start heading
up into an empty blue sky:

http://www.southeastroads.com/florida900/fl-913_nb_view_from_bridge_01.jpg

http://www.southeastroads.com/florida900/fl-913_sb_rickenbacker_causeway_05.jpg

Carl Fogel

Dave R said:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:16:45 -0600, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

On 11 Jul 2005 12:12:10 -0700,
[email hidden] wrote:

>So I live in South Florida (yes, home of the hurricanes). Big bridges
>over big expanses of water that expect to, at times, have cruise ships
>pass underneath. We have several I can name, where I can assure you,
>these rises are at least 20-30 degree angles from level.

[snip]

Dear Magic,

Here's an angled view of the Sunshine Skyway bridge, which
is probably the kind of bridge that you have in mind:

http://www.vandoren.net/fpm/skyway/skydm077.jpg

Unfortunately, the five pages of other pictures fail to show
the bridge from a true side angle.

The apparent angle on our left is about 8 degrees.

(The bridge angle on the left in the picture is about 9.3
degrees, but about 1.3 degrees of that is picture tilt,
judging by the water at the bridge).

This 8-degree angle is exaggerated considerably by the
camera angle to the bridge.

Driving up such bridges does give an impression of steepness
because there's nothing else visible--the road just aims at
the sky, without the familiar mountainside to one side or
peak dead ahead.

Carl Fogel

Aha! Here's a much larger picture of the Sunshine Skyway
from a better angle:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/304964242/304966519UOTZvm#

The water seems to be dead level in the picture.

The left side of the bridge has an apparent angle of about 3
degrees, while the right side has an apparent angle of about
5.3 degrees.

The bridge span lengths indicate that it's symmetrical:

span lengths of main bridge
42.70 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 164.60 m -
365.80 m -
164.60 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 73.20 m - 42.70 m

http://en.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?ID=s0000263

Comparing the gaps in the pylons indicates that the camera
angle is still short of 90 degrees, but it's reasonable to
predict symmetrical bridge approaches would be around 3.5 to
4.5 degrees, or 6 to 8% grade.

Carl Fogel

Carl, I think you just hit the nail on (my) head... The angles I'm
usually seeing these bridges from is about the first picture you posted.
Not from straight on from the middle of the water in the center of the
span. From the road I'm on, and the angle I'm looking at (if you can
picture it, heading say, south, on the road, toward the entrance of the
bridge, about 1/2-3/4 mile from that point (see below...) where the
center is about 1/2 mile from the road, and I'm seeing it , it does
appear way steeper. Now I just need to get out the kayak, paddle out to
the middle of the bay, and take a "real" look at it ;-)

bridge beg..............mid span............end span
. 1/2-3/4 mile
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
me at .5mi from beginning of bridge

Dear Dave,

Yes, that does look like the curving approach for most of
the pictures of the bridge, and that's how most people will
see it in the distance as they approach--a long view at an
angle that makes the bridge look impressively steeper.

It's surprisingly hard to find actual measurements for this
sort of thing. I could find a road height of around 190 feet
(about 175 feet of ship clearance), but not anything clear
about the height at which the road begins its climb or how
far before it topped out.

I suppose that a good GPS in the hands of someone with
nothing better to do could give a fair indication, but a
dead side view with the convenient ocean horizon would be
quicker, easier, and more convincing.

Carl Fogel

Guess I need to go over there with my Polar HRM (with altitude sensor)
and ride up, see the ascent and figure it out from the distance, since
the Polar can tell me the ascent and distance, and then I do the math
;-)

Even at that angle, the Rickenbacker looks much less "impressive" a
climb. From Brickell Ave, it looks much steeper. And in any event,
it's NOT a fun climb, lemme tell ya, especially at the end of a century
;-) As they say, looks can be deceiving. Certainly explains things
for me though...

Thanks, all....

Terry Morse said:

Dave R said:

Anyone know what the % grade or angle of Lombard St in San Fran is?
I've climbed that one and it would give me an interesting perspective...

Quoted message said:

1. & 2. Filbert between Leavenworth and Hyde; 22nd Street between Church and Vicksburg, both 31.5 percent gradient.
3. Jones between Union and Filbert, 29 percent.
4. Duboce between Buena Vista and Alpine, 27.9 percent.
5. & 6. Jones between Green and Union; Webster between Vallejo and Broadway, both 26 percent.
7. & 8. Duboce between Divisadero and Alpine; Duboce between Castro and Divisadero, both 25 percent.
9. Jones between Pine and California, 24.8 percent.
10. Fillmore between Vallejo and Broadway, 24 percent.

Arf! Whaddya know. Duboce is the way I've been riding up twin peaks
on weekends. Thought I had found a nice easy way :-) Bike has been
missing shifts, too -- nice to know I can climb anything in the 39x23.

dkl

Aaargh! Accidentally hit send button before finishing! Wait
a few minutes and the real nonsense will appear.

CF

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here is a list of some of the steepest paved roads in the United States:

1. Honokaa-Waipio Road (near Waipio, HI, maximum grade 45%)*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aye, but what is the steepest paved mile?

Magnolia Road from the turn in Boulder Canyon averages 21.7% though the
total 4.7 mile climb is a mere 8.8%.

Quoted message said:

There may be short stretches where Magnolia Road reaches
21.7% grade.

But tracing the route from the turnoff for about 2 miles on
a good topo map suggests that the average grade for even
short distances is about 9% to 17%--darned steep, but
nowhere near the usual claims.

Carl,

Here is a topo map of #1, the Honokaa-Waipio Road for your
mouse-odometer measuring entertainment:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=5&n=2226139&e=228867&s=25&size=l&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

I find that the steep part rises about 840 feet in roughly 0.66 mile,
for an average grade of 24%. Short sections are of course steeper -
the road has somewhat more irregularity than is obvious from the topo.

Quoted message said:

Here's a topo map of the Magnolia Road:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13&n=4428021.00011587&e=469760.000000001&datum=nad83

View it at 1:24,000 scale and "large" map-size.

email hidden said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Here is a list of some of the steepest paved roads in the United States:
>
> 1. Honokaa-Waipio Road (near Waipio, HI, maximum grade 45%)*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aye, but what is the steepest paved mile?

Magnolia Road from the turn in Boulder Canyon averages 21.7% though the
total 4.7 mile climb is a mere 8.8%.

Quoted message said:

There may be short stretches where Magnolia Road reaches
21.7% grade.

But tracing the route from the turnoff for about 2 miles on
a good topo map suggests that the average grade for even
short distances is about 9% to 17%--darned steep, but
nowhere near the usual claims.

Carl,

Here is a topo map of #1, the Honokaa-Waipio Road for your
mouse-odometer measuring entertainment:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=5&n=2226139&e=228867&s=25&size=l&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

I find that the steep part rises about 840 feet in roughly 0.66 mile,
for an average grade of 24%. Short sections are of course steeper -
the road has somewhat more irregularity than is obvious from the topo.

Quoted message said:

Here's a topo map of the Magnolia Road:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13&n=4428021.00011587&e=469760.000000001&datum=nad83

View it at 1:24,000 scale and "large" map-size.

Dear BJW,

I measured from the fork in the road to where the road
curves to touch the convenient 800-foot contour line.

The road probably starts a bit higher than 0 feet, but not
much.

I made four measurements, followed by four measurements of
the scale.

My worst and best combinations work out to a range of 0.730
to 0.766 miles, about 0.75 miles, naturally more than the
straight-line distance.

This suggests that it's a darned steep hill, averaging
somewhere between 19.8% and 20.8% grade.

Doing it by the four obvious sections gave these results:

section distance grade

000-200f 0.120m 31.6%
0.127m 29.8%

200-400f 0.210m 18.0%
0.213m 17.8%

400-600f 0.245m 15.5%
0.249m 15.2%

600-800f 0.215m 17.6%
0.218m 17.4%

0.790 <--sum of four low distance measurements
0.807 <--sum of four high distance measurements
0.750 <--average of single long measurement

It looks as if the smaller the distance measurement, the
more likely I am to have a slightly higher distance figure.
The reason is probably that it's hard to start and stop a
mouse pointer in the same spot where a road crosses a
contour line--the crossings are several pixels wide.

And it looks as if people often confuse the grade of rather
short (and extremely steep) sections of severe climbs with
the overall grade.

In this case, the map indicates that there's no section even
as short as 1/10th of a mile that's 45% grade--not that I
could pedal up 1/100th of a mile at that pitch.

Carl Fogel

Here's one in Virginia that is comparable to those. It starts on the main
road and turns into Wintergreen Resort.

http://server5.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Wint_TT_topo.1.gif

The TT is usually in May and can be found here.
http://www.wintergreenresort.com/activities/wintergreen_ascent.asp

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

these rises are at least 20-30 degree angles from level

And I can guarantee you that those bridges are nowhere near that degree
of rise. Motor vehicles cannot climb those grades. Having driven
over a lot of that territory, I will guarantee that those bridges are
no more than a 5-6% grade. Me thinks you would be well served to find
out the exact measurements and calculate the % grade - I think you will
be surprised to find that they are really rather tame by climbing
standards.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure that many of the mountains in France are not 10 mile climbs at

these angles, there have to be spots of pretty steep stuff

For the most part, the major climbs used in the major European tours
(TdF, Giro, Vuelta) are long and at what I would consider moderate
grades. The signature climb from last year, up Alpe d'Huez, is a 14km
climb at 7.9% average grade but it does have a spot where the grade is
almost 15%. The big climb in the Giro this year was over Passo dello
Stelvio which is a 25km climb (Prato to summit) with 7.3% average grade
and the maximum is just a bit under 10%. There are a lot of climbs in
the US with steeper grades, but it is tough to find long, sustained
climbs like those in Europe - esp. since they tend to mark down climbs
if there are intermediate descents ;-) One thing you have to add in to
your discussion is the effect of elevation. Stelvio tops out a bit
over 9000' elevation, and a lot of folks climbing it are gasping for
air long before the top; Tourmalet, when it is on the TdF tops at a
measly 6938', still enough to give low landers a desire for more
oxygen.

- rick

art11 said:

Here's one in Virginia that is comparable to those. It starts on the main
road and turns into Wintergreen Resort.

Not even close; it is only about 12 km. Much less than most of the
big European cols. It is about the same as Alpe d'Huez, but other
than last year's TT that is usally ridden after 2-3 climbs of equal or
near equal size. Most of the big climbs in Europe are much longer.
Stelvio is 25km, Col de Galibier is 18+km, Tourmalet is 18+km. And
they all go higher; this one tops at a mere 3400', Galibier is over
8000', Stelvio over 9000', Tourmalet almost 7000'.

- rick

Quoted message said:

http://server5.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Wint_TT_topo.1.gif

The TT is usually in May and can be found here.
http://www.wintergreenresort.com/activities/wintergreen_ascent.asp

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

these rises are at least 20-30 degree angles from level

And I can guarantee you that those bridges are nowhere near that degree
of rise. Motor vehicles cannot climb those grades. Having driven
over a lot of that territory, I will guarantee that those bridges are
no more than a 5-6% grade. Me thinks you would be well served to find
out the exact measurements and calculate the % grade - I think you will
be surprised to find that they are really rather tame by climbing
standards.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure that many of the mountains in France are not 10 mile climbs at

these angles, there have to be spots of pretty steep stuff

For the most part, the major climbs used in the major European tours
(TdF, Giro, Vuelta) are long and at what I would consider moderate
grades. The signature climb from last year, up Alpe d'Huez, is a 14km
climb at 7.9% average grade but it does have a spot where the grade is
almost 15%. The big climb in the Giro this year was over Passo dello
Stelvio which is a 25km climb (Prato to summit) with 7.3% average grade
and the maximum is just a bit under 10%. There are a lot of climbs in
the US with steeper grades, but it is tough to find long, sustained
climbs like those in Europe - esp. since they tend to mark down climbs
if there are intermediate descents ;-) One thing you have to add in to
your discussion is the effect of elevation. Stelvio tops out a bit
over 9000' elevation, and a lot of folks climbing it are gasping for
air long before the top; Tourmalet, when it is on the TdF tops at a
measly 6938', still enough to give low landers a desire for more
oxygen.

- rick

That road is paved but it may be slightly shorter than a mile. There is a
sign at the top indicating it is only for 4wd (because they have low range
gearing). I saw a Subaru Forester at the bottom; I wonder how well it got
down/up.

-Dion

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Here is a list of some of the steepest paved roads in the United

States:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> 1. Honokaa-Waipio Road (near Waipio, HI, maximum grade 45%)*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aye, but what is the steepest paved mile?

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

art11 said:

Here's one in Virginia that is comparable to those. It starts on the main
road and turns into Wintergreen Resort.

Not even close; it is only about 12 km. Much less than most of the
big European cols. It is about the same as Alpe d'Huez, but other
than last year's TT that is usally ridden after 2-3 climbs of equal or
near equal size. Most of the big climbs in Europe are much longer.
Stelvio is 25km, Col de Galibier is 18+km, Tourmalet is 18+km. And
they all go higher; this one tops at a mere 3400', Galibier is over
8000', Stelvio over 9000', Tourmalet almost 7000'.

- rick

I was comparing to Alpe d'Huez (except for elevation). Anyway it's the only
climb withing 300 miles of me that I know of that comes close to it.

Interesting that Chris C. was saying on OLN the other day that they hooked
up Lance to a sea level concentration of O2 on one of those high climbs and
found that he used no more O2 than he did when just breathing the thin air.
Have they tried the same experiment on lesser subjects?

--Art

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://server5.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Wint_TT_topo.1.gif

The TT is usually in May and can be found here.
http://www.wintergreenresort.com/activities/wintergreen_ascent.asp

art11 said:

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

art11 said:

Here's one in Virginia that is comparable to those. It starts on the main
road and turns into Wintergreen Resort.

Not even close; it is only about 12 km. Much less than most of the
big European cols. It is about the same as Alpe d'Huez, but other
than last year's TT that is usally ridden after 2-3 climbs of equal or
near equal size. Most of the big climbs in Europe are much longer.
Stelvio is 25km, Col de Galibier is 18+km, Tourmalet is 18+km. And
they all go higher; this one tops at a mere 3400', Galibier is over
8000', Stelvio over 9000', Tourmalet almost 7000'.

- rick

I was comparing to Alpe d'Huez (except for elevation). Anyway it's the only
climb withing 300 miles of me that I know of that comes close to it.

It is good to ride what you have, but not good to try to compare. We
have steep climbs and long climbs, but not steep, long climbs around
where I live. I find that I can take steep better than length, and
that long, steep climbs (e.g., Stelvio, Galibier, Tourmalet, etc.) can
be wearing. Same with most of the pros - note how Ullrich, Kloden,
Vinokurov, and others could not keep pace on the ride to Ax-3-domain
today - your legs get tired and psychologically you wonder if it will
ever end. I find that the more switchbacks there are the more the
climb plays into my mind: you can see the top, it seems close, but you
do not seem to be making much progress towards reaching the summit.
Stelvio from Prato is esp. vexing - 48 switchbacks, and the last 10 km
(of 25) seem to take forever).

- rick