What GPS to use?

I don't have anything to contribute other than a question. A friend has one of these (I don't even
know the brand), and it seems to give wildly inaccurate elevations (below sea level in the hills).
Do some do a better job of elevation and do any have a useful slope gauge? Alan "Jim Sherman"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about bikers?

I'm not too interested in preprogrammed routes (though I probably will after I get it). More
interested in downloading data to a computer after a ride to get a visual display of what I have
done. Will it do this? I expect it must update your position extremely frequently or even
constantly otherwise a slow climb followed by a fast descent would give a strange readout.

Possible with the GPS or with add-on software?

Mountable on a bike? Can you just carry it in your pocket?

I read someone's post about how he had to edit his route after downloading as it included his
car ride home! I would expect it to have some kind of mark feature to mark beginning and ends
of routes.

Since I'm brand new to these things any advice is welcome. Thanks.

Alan Acock said:

I don't have anything to contribute other than a question. A friend has one of these (I don't even
know the brand), and it seems to give wildly inaccurate elevations (below sea level in the hills).
Do some do a better job of elevation and do any have a useful slope gauge? Alan "Jim Sherman"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about bikers?

I'm not too interested in preprogrammed routes (though I probably will after I get it). More
interested in downloading data to a computer after a ride to get a visual display of what I have
done. Will it do this? I expect it must update your position extremely frequently or even
constantly otherwise a slow climb followed by a fast descent would give a strange readout.

Possible with the GPS or with add-on software?

Mountable on a bike? Can you just carry it in your pocket?

Yes, they sell bike mounts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I read someone's post about how he had to edit his route after downloading as it included his car
ride home! I would expect it to have some kind of mark feature to mark beginning and ends of
routes.

Since I'm brand new to these things any advice is welcome. Thanks.

Mine does have features to stop and start routes and to mark "waypoints" during the route. I don't
know about elevation statistics, as I generally don't look at these.

--
Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:49:31 -0400, Jim Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote:

Most any of the hand held GPS units should work for you. They all will record your current track
giving you location, time and some also record elevation. I have an older Garmin Model(GPSIII) that
I use on my bike. It will record up to 1900 points and I can set the interval that these points are
taken based on any time or distance. Normally I use .05 miles(95miles total) but you could use a
smaller interval. When I get back the track can be downloaded to the computer to be used with any
mapping program. Even if your GPS doesn't record elevation some of those programs that have
topographic maps will calculate total climb and generate an elevation profile for you.

Also, except for cadence, a GPS will do everything your bike computer will do and a whole lot more.

Jim Sherman said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about bikers?

I use an Etrex Venture. You can get a handlebar mount for the Etrex series, though you won't find it
in stores anymore, you should be able to get it online or from Garmin. The handlebar mount is light,
onobtrusive, and very secure.

Quoted message said:

I'm not too interested in preprogrammed routes (though I probably will after I get it). More
interested in downloading data to a computer after a ride to get a visual display of what I have
done. Will it do this? I

The Etrex Venture even comes with the computer cable in the box. Other Etrex models don't (at least,
cheaper ones).

Quoted message said:

expect it must update your position extremely frequently or even constantly otherwise a slow climb
followed by a fast descent would give a strange readout.

Again, score for the Etrex Venture. The Etrex line includes at least two levels of
breadcrumb-resolution. You won't find that in any marketing literature, but I stumbled across it
while looking for some mapping software. Some Etrex models don't breadcrumb very often, but the
Etrex Venture is pretty quick.

Still, if you do a fast descent followed by a short climb, it might miss the valley. Even while
dropping multiple breadcrumbs, it may not have a strong link to the satellites -- this is especially
true under heavy tree cover (another score for the Etrex Venture, which supposedly handles tree
cover pretty well).

Quoted message said:

Possible with the GPS or with add-on software?

Absolutely.

Quoted message said:

Mountable on a bike? Can you just carry it in your pocket?

Any Garmin Etrex series is mountable, via the handlebar mount I mentioned before. It's never come
off accidentally, even after X amount of crashes. It does unclip easily when you want it to.

Carrying a GPS in your pocket is a problem because the antenna is directional; it has to face up.
The Etrex antenna (probably similar for all GPS) looks aesthetically like a largish computer chip
with a sticker on it, and the flat surface must face up without excessive obstruction.

Quoted message said:

I read someone's post about how he had to edit his route after downloading as it included his
car ride home! I would expect it to have some kind of mark feature to mark beginning and ends
of routes.

You can always mark waypoints; that person forgot to do so.

Additionally, you could [gasp!] turn the gps off when you're in your car. I only turn mine on when I
actually want to use it.

Also...with the Etrex Venture [and probably all other Etrex as well as most other GPS at all], you
can tell it NOT to drop breadcrumbs at all; then it just shows you where you are and allows you to
manually mark waypoints.

Quoted message said:

Since I'm brand new to these things any advice is welcome. Thanks.

I've quite a bit of experience using mine on my mountain bike. I'm lost without it...literally. 😉

--
Rick Onanian

Jim Spencer said:

Also, except for cadence, a GPS will do everything your bike computer will do and a whole
lot more.

I find that the readings from my bike computer are more accurate and useful than those from the GPS,
and easier to reset without losing important data; but the GPS in combination with the bike comp
(which has cadence, I wouldn't do without it!), makes a great team.

Now, integrate them, add a heart rate monitor, and let me write scripts for it (maybe run Linux on
it) and I'd be in heaven.

Power to the data! Data to the people!

Seriously speaking, though, that makes me think of this question I have: Is there a heart-rate
monitor that takes constant readings without requiring a chest band? Why haven't I seen any that
read it from the wrist? Aside from chest bands, I've only seen the ones that read it from your
fingertip, which is only useful when you've stopped.

I've got enough things chafing and sweaty, I don't need to add a damn chestband.

--
Rick Onanian

Thanks for your input Rick.

A few more questions. Does the Venture calculate elevation? The comparison chart shows that only the
Vista has a barometric altimeter. Or is that just an advanced version?

Does the Etrex come with any software for downloading (even a basic program) or is that an add-on?

Are these "breadcrumbs" marked by time or distance?

Jim

Rick Onanian said:

Jim Sherman said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about bikers?

I use an Etrex Venture. You can get a handlebar mount for the Etrex series, though you won't find
it in stores anymore, you should be able to get it online or from Garmin. The handlebar mount is
light, onobtrusive, and very secure.

Quoted message said:

I'm not too interested in preprogrammed routes (though I probably will after I get it). More
interested in downloading data to a computer after a ride to get a visual display of what I have
done. Will it do this? I

The Etrex Venture even comes with the computer cable in the box. Other Etrex models don't (at
least, cheaper ones).

Quoted message said:

expect it must update your position extremely frequently or even constantly otherwise a slow
climb followed by a fast descent would give a strange readout.

Again, score for the Etrex Venture. The Etrex line includes at least two levels of
breadcrumb-resolution. You won't find that in any marketing literature, but I stumbled across it
while looking for some mapping software. Some Etrex models don't breadcrumb very often, but the
Etrex Venture is pretty quick.

Still, if you do a fast descent followed by a short climb, it might miss the valley. Even while
dropping multiple breadcrumbs, it may not have a strong link to the satellites -- this is
especially true under heavy tree cover (another score for the Etrex Venture, which supposedly
handles tree cover pretty well).

Quoted message said:

Possible with the GPS or with add-on software?

Absolutely.

Quoted message said:

Mountable on a bike? Can you just carry it in your pocket?

Any Garmin Etrex series is mountable, via the handlebar mount I mentioned before. It's never come
off accidentally, even after X amount of crashes. It does unclip easily when you want it to.

Carrying a GPS in your pocket is a problem because the antenna is directional; it has to face up.
The Etrex antenna (probably similar for all GPS) looks aesthetically like a largish computer chip
with a sticker on it, and the flat surface must face up without excessive obstruction.

Quoted message said:

I read someone's post about how he had to edit his route after downloading as it included his car
ride home! I would expect it to have some kind of mark feature to mark beginning and ends of
routes.

You can always mark waypoints; that person forgot to do so.

Additionally, you could [gasp!] turn the gps off when you're in your car. I only turn mine on when
I actually want to use it.

Also...with the Etrex Venture [and probably all other Etrex as well as most other GPS at all], you
can tell it NOT to drop breadcrumbs at all; then it just shows you where you are and allows you to
manually mark waypoints.

Quoted message said:

Since I'm brand new to these things any advice is welcome. Thanks.

I've quite a bit of experience using mine on my mountain bike. I'm lost without it...literally. 😉

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jim Spencer said:

Also, except for cadence, a GPS will do everything your bike computer will do and a whole
lot more.

I find that the readings from my bike computer are more accurate and useful than those from the
GPS, and easier to reset without losing important data; but the GPS in combination with the bike
comp (which has cadence, I wouldn't do without it!), makes a great team.

Now, integrate them, add a heart rate monitor, and let me write scripts for it (maybe run Linux on
it) and I'd be in heaven.

Power to the data! Data to the people!

Seriously speaking, though, that makes me think of this question I have: Is there a heart-rate
monitor that takes constant readings without requiring a chest band? Why haven't I seen any that
read it from the wrist? Aside from chest bands, I've only seen the ones that read it from your
fingertip, which is only useful when you've stopped.

I've got enough things chafing and sweaty, I don't need to add a damn chestband.

Sweaty, yes, but I've never had any chafing from my Polar chestband.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

Depending on where you live, you can buy the handlebar mounts at REI or Fry's electronics to name
two retailers. I have an Etrex Legend which has a built in map of major streets and trips in the US
and you can probably buy it with other parts of the world depending on where you live. I use my GPS
in concert with Delorme's topographical software, Topo. With Topo I can lay out a course on my
desktop computer for a coming ride or tour and download the route and waypoints to the GPS, and
whalla, I have the routes directions with turns and distances in the GPS. You can go the other way
too by going on a ride and have the GPS track your course during a ride. You can then upload the
course to Topo and generate a route and elevation profile in Topo. I have found the GPS very handy
when touring new and unknown roads and areas.

You can also purchase Garmin software which allows you to download more detailed maps of streets and
roads to the GPS.

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:49:31 -0400, Jim Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about

bikers?

Quoted message said:

I use an Etrex Venture. You can get a handlebar mount for the Etrex series, though you won't find
it in stores anymore, you should be able to get it online or from Garmin. The handlebar mount is
light, onobtrusive, and very secure.

Quoted message said:

I'm not too interested in preprogrammed routes (though I probably will after I get it). More
interested in downloading data to a computer

after

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a ride to get a visual display of what I have done. Will it do this? I

The Etrex Venture even comes with the computer cable in the box. Other Etrex models don't (at
least, cheaper ones).

Quoted message said:

expect it must update your position extremely frequently or even constantly otherwise a slow
climb followed by a fast descent would give

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

strange readout.

Again, score for the Etrex Venture. The Etrex line includes at least two levels of
breadcrumb-resolution. You won't find that in any marketing literature, but I stumbled across it
while looking for some mapping software. Some Etrex models don't breadcrumb very often, but the
Etrex Venture is pretty quick.

Still, if you do a fast descent followed by a short climb, it might miss the valley. Even while
dropping multiple breadcrumbs, it may not have a strong link to the satellites -- this is
especially true under heavy tree cover (another score for the Etrex Venture, which supposedly
handles tree cover pretty well).

Quoted message said:

Possible with the GPS or with add-on software?

Absolutely.

Quoted message said:

Mountable on a bike? Can you just carry it in your pocket?

Any Garmin Etrex series is mountable, via the handlebar mount I mentioned before. It's never come
off accidentally, even after X amount of crashes. It does unclip easily when you want it to.

Carrying a GPS in your pocket is a problem because the antenna is directional; it has to face up.
The Etrex antenna (probably similar for all GPS) looks aesthetically like a largish computer chip
with a sticker on it, and the flat surface must face up without excessive obstruction.

Quoted message said:

I read someone's post about how he had to edit his route after downloading as it included his
car ride home! I would expect it to have some kind of mark feature to mark beginning and ends of
routes.

You can always mark waypoints; that person forgot to do so.

Additionally, you could [gasp!] turn the gps off when you're in your car. I only turn mine on when
I actually want to use it.

Also...with the Etrex Venture [and probably all other Etrex as well as most other GPS at all], you
can tell it NOT to drop breadcrumbs at all; then it just shows you where you are and allows you to
manually mark waypoints.

Quoted message said:

Since I'm brand new to these things any advice is welcome. Thanks.

I've quite a bit of experience using mine on my mountain bike. I'm lost without it...literally. 😉

--
Rick Onanian

I've been using a Magellan Sportrak Map on my bike recently. Kind of overkill, but it has a moving
map display which is actually pretty nice--combined with street / topo maps. I can come back later
and download the tracks, which is mostly a curiosity, but I suppose I could actually make my own
trail maps that way. Altitude encoding isn't great, but it's not too bad--I can look at a an
altitude profile of my tracks after the fact. It's surprising how well it does in tree
cover--sometimes I lose the signal, but it seems to hold it better on the bike than when walking. My
guess it it's somehow a kind of 'window fan' effect.

Anyway, here's a GPS track from riding the 'Potowatami Trail' (southern Michigan) on Saturday. The
straight line throught the lake is where I lost the signal in dense tree cover:

fototime.comorig.gifOpen ↗

Mark

"Jim Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about bikers?

I'm not too interested in preprogrammed routes (though I probably will after I get it). More
interested in downloading data to a computer after a ride to get a visual display of what I have
done. Will it do this? I expect it must update your position extremely frequently or even
constantly otherwise a slow climb followed by a fast descent would give a strange readout.

Possible with the GPS or with add-on software?

Mountable on a bike? Can you just carry it in your pocket?

I read someone's post about how he had to edit his route after downloading as it included his
car ride home! I would expect it to have some kind of mark feature to mark beginning and ends
of routes.

Since I'm brand new to these things any advice is welcome. Thanks.

"Jim Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about bikers?

Some useful sites to go along with all the useful posts.

joe.mehaffey.comjoe.mehaffey.comOpen ↗

mywebpages.comcast.netnavigatingbygps.htmOpen ↗

Steve B.

Jim Sherman said:

A few more questions. Does the Venture calculate elevation? The comparison chart shows that only
the Vista has a barometric altimeter. Or is that just an advanced version?

Now that you mention it, I believe it does not use an altimeter, but just figures it from the
satellite signal. I don't know just how accurate this method is.

Quoted message said:

Does the Etrex come with any software for downloading (even a basic program) or is that an add-on?

It does not come with any program. Free (open source, free software) is available for it, as well as
free (free of charge) and shareware, and of course, commercial software.

Quoted message said:

Are these "breadcrumbs" marked by time or distance?

I call 'em breadcrumbs [a la Hansel & Gretel]; Garming calls them Tracklogs, I'm sure others call
them other things. Anyway, on the Garmin Etrex series, they are marked by time. Somebody else
replied with a GPS that marks by distance, and suggested that you may be able to adjust it.

I think that very accurate mapping via GPS on a bicycle may not be feasible...you may have to walk,
with any GPS, to get the accurate map you want.

I'm rather interested in this subject, as I'd like to map the Big River Management Area, a large
network of moderate to very good singletrack near my home. Currently, only very rudimentry maps
exist and are hard to find. I've got loads of GPS data, but it's such a damn mess, I have to
start fresh.

I'd be interested in whatever general GPS cartography information you come up with, as well as what
program you choose.

That all said...did I mention that I LOVE my Etrex Venture? 😉

Quoted message said:

Jim

--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

Quoted message said:

snip Are these "breadcrumbs" marked by time or distance?

I call 'em breadcrumbs [a la Hansel & Gretel]; Garming calls them Tracklogs, I'm sure others call
them other things. Anyway, on the Garmin Etrex series, they are marked by time. Somebody else
replied with a GPS that marks by distance, and suggested that you may be able to adjust it.

I looked at the manual for the eTrex Venture (garmin.com133.pdfOpen ↗) and like my
GPSIII the interval for taking track points can be based on distance or time. Distance can be set
from 0 to 9.9miles and time can be set up to 99hrs:59min:59sec

Alan Acock said:

I don't have anything to contribute other than a question. A friend has one of these (I don't even
know the brand), and it seems to give wildly inaccurate elevations (below sea level in the hills).
Do some do a better job of elevation and do any have a useful slope gauge? Alan

Some units have barometric altimeters which are more accurate than the altitude calculated from the
satellites.

However, these need to be set to the proper altitude when powered on, and readjusted occasionally as
weather changes.

Barry

Rick Onanian said:

Again, score for the Etrex Venture. The Etrex line includes at least two levels of
breadcrumb-resolution.

The eTrex Vista is fully configurable to make marks by time or distance. The time and distance
intervals can be programmed by the user.

I don't know about the Venture, but the Vista can currently store 10,000 track log points. That's
about 2 hours and 45 minutes at the maximum resolution by time of 1 point per second, and 100 miles
at the maximum distance resolution of .01 mile per point.

Barry

Rick Onanian said:

I call 'em breadcrumbs [a la Hansel & Gretel]; Garming calls them Tracklogs, I'm sure others call
them other things. Anyway, on the Garmin Etrex series, they are marked by time.

Not true, at least on the eTrex Vista. The marks can be created by time or distance, with a minimum
spacing of 1 second or .01 mile.

Quoted message said:

I think that very accurate mapping via GPS on a bicycle may not be feasible...

It certainly is when the GPS is set up right and the logs are downloaded to GOOD maps like those
from National Geographic or Maptech, as opposed to Garmin's inaccurate maps.

Also keep in mind that saving a tracklog inside the GPS causes it to be compressed, detail is
removed to make the log take less storage memory. Downloading each track log while it's still the
active log will preserve the detail.

Barry

Jim Spencer said:

I looked at the manual for the eTrex Venture (garmin.com133.pdfOpen ↗) and like my
GPSIII the interval for taking track points can be based on distance or time. Distance can be set
from 0 to 9.9miles and time can be set up to 99hrs:59min:59sec

How about that...I learn something new every day. I might just fiddle around with that!

Thanks.

--
Rick Onanian

Roberto Divia said:

Yes and yes. Garmin sells a special bike holder. The best position seems to be on the helmet, a
"soft" holder from Garmin can be used for that (heard of, never tried myself).

That never occured to me, but it would probably yield more accurate results and less signal loss.

However, there, you won't know when you've lost a signal; and also, it's subject to getting
destroyed in an accident.

Mine's been safe on the handlebar.
--
Rick Onanian

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jim Sherman said:

A few more questions. Does the Venture calculate elevation? The comparison chart shows that only
the Vista has a barometric altimeter. Or is that just an advanced version?

Now that you mention it, I believe it does not use an altimeter, but just figures it from the
satellite signal. I don't know just how accurate this method is.

The altitude accuracy is the same as the horizontal accuracy: typicallt 10 to 30 ft, depending on
conditions. It simply determines your position in 3-dimensional space with respect to the
satellites.

....

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

Jim Sherman said:

I have never used a GPS before but would like to get one to calculate elevation, grades etc
especially on hilly routes. My cycle computer already has speed distance etc. The Garmin Etrex
seems to get the most positive reports. But that's from the general public. How about bikers?

Garmin Etrex Vista. Baro and GPS altimetry, sampling automatic, by time or by distance. Computer
link via RS232. Proprietary and non-propietary software for downloading and analysis. Good
resolution (max: 2 meters).

Quoted message said:

I'm not too interested in preprogrammed routes (though I probably will after I get it). More
interested in downloading data to a computer after a ride to get a visual display of what I have
done. Will it do this?

Yes: detailed for the route, a bit less for the altimetry. You need extra software.

Quoted message said:

I expect it must update your position extremely frequently or even constantly otherwise a slow
climb followed by a fast descent would give a strange readout.

I find it's OK with a 50 meters sampling.

Quoted message said:

Possible with the GPS or with add-on software?

Both.

Quoted message said:

Mountable on a bike? Can you just carry it in your pocket?

Yes and yes. Garmin sells a special bike holder. The best position seems to be on the helmet, a
"soft" holder from Garmin can be used for that (heard of, never tried myself).

Quoted message said:

I read someone's post about how he had to edit his route after downloading as it included his
car ride home! I would expect it to have some kind of mark feature to mark beginning and ends
of routes.

There are two types of tracks: "live" and "saved". Live tracks include all data. Saved track
discard timing information. The unit splits tracks in chunks based on "pauses" (loss of GPS signal
or breaks). The software from Garmin allows deletion of (sets of) points as well as deletion of
entire chunks.

I normally export from the Garmin software to Excel with a cut-and-paste operation. Takes a
few seconds.

Ciao,
--
Roberto Divia` Love at first sight is one of the greatest
============= labour-saving devices the world has ever seen.
Mailbox: C02110 CERN-European Organization for Nuclear Research E-mail: [email hidden]
CH-1211 GENEVE 23, Switzerland