What did I do wrong? re: nutrition?

curt said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard.
The weather was great and I know I was hydrated. I have
been on a low carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until
Saturday night, which was the night before the ride. I ate
sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a
banana and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got
to the ride start. I set out and pretty much pushed from
the start. I felt really pretty good on the ride. Stopped a
few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of a
peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2
of a sandwich and another cookie and some more water. I was
only drinking water on this ride. I felt okay coming home
but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up and felt really
dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate
some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid
down for an hour or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I
get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

There could be many reasons for feeling dizzy, but despite
my leanings towards LC, I think you did the right thing in
picking the foods you did post-ride. I often listen to my
'internal voice' on what foods to eat when I'm LC-ing, b/c,
IMO, my body's needs, due to the clean and frugal eating,
are easier to 'read'.

Make sure you're taking the suggested vits and supps on the
LC plan, including minerals (potassium and calcium
supplements).

You might want to experiment with targetted, or cyclical
ketogenic diet if you're doing long rides at higher
intensity.

Good job, btw, on the ride!

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

I get dizzy when I run out of energy or bonk. sounds like
you needed a bit more food.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes
at reasonable prices See knight-toolworks.comknight-toolworks.comOpen ↗ For
prices and ordering instructions.

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard.
The weather was great and I know I was hydrated. I have
been on a low carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until
Saturday night, which was the night before the ride. I ate
sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to
the ride start. I set out and pretty much pushed from the
start. I felt really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2
bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2
of a sandwich and another cookie and some more water. I
was only drinking water on this ride. I felt okay coming
home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head
lower for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some
blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour or so and
now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I
get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason
why many folks think that low-carb is inappropriate for the
athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
(assuming 35 calories per mile). But, you only consumed
about 500 calories during the ride, and your breakfast was
probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been "low-
carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode
"hard"...when you do that, your body needs carbs...but,
you've not been consuming sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
hour or two, you should try to consume around 250 calories
per hour. This won't replace all the calories you're
burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but will
help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but,
your eating habits before and during the ride are a classic
case of, "Doh!"

GG

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
hard. The weather was great and I know I was hydrated.
I have been on a low carb diet pretty strict from
Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night
before the ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad.
The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to
the ride start. I set out and pretty much pushed from the
start. I felt really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2
bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate
1/2 of a sandwich and another cookie and some more water.
I was only drinking water on this ride. I felt okay
coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower
for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry
yogurt and laid down for an hour or so and now feel much
better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did
I get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason
why many folks think that low-carb is inappropriate for the
athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
(assuming 35 calories per mile). But, you only consumed
about 500 calories during the ride, and your breakfast was
probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been "low-
carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode
"hard"...when you do that, your body needs carbs...but,
you've not been consuming sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
hour or two, you should try to consume around 250 calories
per hour. This won't replace all the calories you're
burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but will
help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but,
your eating habits before and during the ride are a classic
case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on
Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two
hamburgers and some lettuce the day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had
some coffee with splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
hard. The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low
carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until Saturday
night, which was the night before

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next
morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to
the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt
really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2
bananas and 1/2

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate
1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and another cookie and some more water. I was only
drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit
dizzy. I stood

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head
lower for few. I

ate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and
laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why
did I get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one
reason why many

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically
inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
(assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories
during the ride,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories.
And, you had been "low-carbing" for days prior to the
ride. Finally, you rode

"hard"...when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been
consuming sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
hour or two, you should try to consume around 250
calories per hour. This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very,
very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but,
your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours
on Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had
two hamburgers and some lettuce the day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had
some coffee

with

Quoted message said:

splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Thanks for the replies. I to ride up to 40 miles or so and
can eat whatever. I rode 50 on two eggs and some bacon and a
banana, but it was at a slower pace. For some reason this 75
really took it out of me.

I think I will have to eat more food on this type of ride. I
had enough in me to finish strong, but after I soon went
down hill.

Thanks, Curt

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
> hard. The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low
> carb diet

pretty

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was
> the night before

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next
> morning I ate a
banana
> and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got
> to the ride

start.

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt
> really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on
> the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1
> 1/2 bananas and

1/2

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a
> peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I
> ate 1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and another cookie and some more water. I was only
> drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit
> dizzy. I stood

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head
> lower for few. I

ate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and
> laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> or so and now feel much better.
>
> Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why
> did I get

dizzy?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Thanks, Curt
>

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one
reason why many

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that low-carb is inappropriate for the
athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
(assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories
during the ride,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories.
And, you had

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally,
you rode

"hard"...when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not
been consuming sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
hour or two,

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

should try to consume around 250 calories per hour.
This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very,
very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good
idea...but, your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of,
"Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4
hours on Saturday on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers
and some lettuce

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and
had some coffee

with

Quoted message said:

splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Thanks for the replies. I to ride up to 40 miles or so and
can eat whatever. I rode 50 on two eggs and some bacon and
a banana, but it was

at

Quoted message said:

a slower pace. For some reason this 75 really took it
out of me.

I think I will have to eat more food on this type of ride.
I had enough

in

Quoted message said:

me to finish strong, but after I soon went down hill.

Thanks, Curt

I think how hard you ride has a lot to do with it. If you're
riding at a pretty easy pace, your body is able to keep up
with your energy needs by converting stored fats. But, at
higher intensities and longer efforts, your body burns
mostly stored glycogens (carbs), and has a hard time keeping
up with demand unless you take some more carbs on board
during the ride.

GG

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
hard. The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low
carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until Saturday
night, which was the night before

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next
morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to
the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt
really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2
bananas and 1/2

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate
1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and another cookie and some more water. I was only
drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit
dizzy. I stood

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head
lower for few. I

ate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and
laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why
did I get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one
reason why many

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically
inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
(assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories
during the ride,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories.
And, you had been "low-carbing" for days prior to the
ride. Finally, you rode

"hard"...when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been
consuming sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
hour or two, you should try to consume around 250
calories per hour. This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very,
very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but,
your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours
on Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had
two hamburgers and some lettuce the day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had
some coffee

with

Quoted message said:

splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?

While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work for
you, I doubt it would work for most folks. I could not
imagine doing a multi-hour ride on only a piece of bacon
(roughly 100 calories). I've seen, and experienced, the bonk
too many times, and that "breakfast" is a recipe for bonking
for most folks that I know.

Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance
athletes emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs before
and during the ride, with carbs and protein post-ride.
Perhaps it's different for you, but I doubt we'll be seeing
any TdF pros queueing up for bacon before this year's Alpe
d'Huez stage.

Quoted message said:

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:11:34 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?

Only 35 miles - I'm still a biking wimp. ;-<

Quoted message said:

While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work for
you, I doubt it would work for most folks. I could not
imagine doing a multi-hour ride on only a piece of bacon
(roughly 100 calories). I've seen, and experienced, the
bonk too many times, and that "breakfast" is a recipe for
bonking for most folks that I know.

Anything over my longest ride and I'll let a piece of hard
candy dissolve, or munch a few M&Ms. But I'm still pushing
it, both pace and distance.

Quoted message said:

Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance
athletes emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs
before and during the ride, with carbs and protein post-
ride. Perhaps it's different for you, but I doubt we'll be
seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon before this
year's Alpe d'Huez stage.

Haha. Good one. But as some have said, more and more
endurance athletes are trying the LC diet and doing OK,
along with supplementation during the 'window'. For the
really long events, like adventure racing, they're pretty
much all gone to liquid fuel during the event. Note the
posting from one biker who mentions that without the
excessive carbs he's no longer getting that sleepy feeling
mid-day, etc.

It's a fun experiment, and who knows how far it can be
taken? But to be fair, I always take some glucose snacks
along just in case.

-B

GaryG wrote:
:: "curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: "]news:[email hidden]...
:::
::: "Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::: "]news:[email hidden]...
:::: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"
:::: <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
::::
::::: "curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::::: "]news:[email hidden]...
:::::: I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
:::::: hard. The weather was great and I know I was
:::::: hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
:::::: strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was
:::::: the night before the ride. I ate sushi that night and
:::::: a salad. The next morning I ate a banana and piece of
:::::: chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride
:::::: start. I set out and pretty much pushed from the
:::::: start. I felt really pretty good on the ride. Stopped
:::::: a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and
:: 1/2
::: of
::::: a
:::::: peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I
:::::: ate 1/2 of a sandwich and another cookie and some
:::::: more water. I was only drinking water on this ride. I
:::::: felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I
:::::: stood up and felt really dizzy for a bit and had to
:::::: put my head lower for few. I ate some rice, pasta,
:::::: fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an
:::::: hour or so and now feel much better.
::::::
:::::: Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why
:::::: did I get dizzy?
::::::
:::::: Thanks, Curt
::::::
:::::
::::: It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one
::::: reason why many folks think that low-carb is
::::: inappropriate for the athletically inclined.
:::::
::::: On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
::::: (assuming 35 calories per mile). But, you only
::::: consumed about 500 calories during the ride, and your
::::: breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And,
::::: you had been "low-carbing" for days prior to the ride.
::::: Finally, you rode "hard"...when you do that, your body
::::: needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
::::: sufficient carbs for days.
:::::
::::: I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than
::::: an hour or two, you should try to consume around 250
::::: calories per hour. This won't replace all the calories
::::: you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow),
::::: but will help prevent the bonk.
:::::
::::: Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good
::::: idea...but, your eating habits before and during the
::::: ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"
:::::
::::: GG
:::::
::::
:::: Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4
:::: hours on Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of
:::: bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the day
:::: before.
::::
:::: No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and
:::: had some coffee with splenda, then took a nap.
::::
:::: Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.
::::
:::: -Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"
:::
::: Thanks for the replies. I to ride up to 40 miles or so
::: and can eat whatever. I rode 50 on two eggs and some
::: bacon and a banana, but it was at a slower pace. For
::: some reason this 75 really took it out of me.
:::
::: I think I will have to eat more food on this type of
::: ride. I had enough in me to finish strong, but after I
::: soon went down hill.
:::
::: Thanks, Curt
:::
::
:: I think how hard you ride has a lot to do with it. If
:: you're riding at a pretty easy pace, your body is able to
:: keep up with your energy needs by converting stored fats.
:: But, at higher intensities and longer efforts, your body
:: burns mostly stored glycogens (carbs), and has a hard
:: time keeping up with demand unless you take some more
:: carbs on board during the ride.

I think that definitely is a factor. I note that on my rides
I going upto and above 90% of my 220-age heart rate max
several times on a 35-mile ride through the hills of upstate
SC. Afterwards I have major BG drops.

GaryG wrote:
:: "Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: "]news:[email hidden]...
::: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"
::: <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
:::
:::: "curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:::: "]news:[email hidden]...
::::: I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
::::: hard. The weather was great and I know I was hydrated.
::::: I have been on a low carb diet pretty strict from
::::: Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night
::::: before the ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad.
::::: The next morning I ate a banana and piece of chicken
::::: sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start. I
::::: set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt
::::: really pretty good on the ride. Stopped a few times
::::: and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of a peanut
::::: butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of
::::: a sandwich and another cookie and some more water. I
::::: was only drinking water on this ride. I felt okay
::::: coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up
::::: and felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head
::::: lower for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some
::::: blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour or so and
::::: now feel much better.
:::::
::::: Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why
::::: did I get dizzy?
:::::
::::: Thanks, Curt
:::::
::::
:::: It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one
:::: reason why many folks think that low-carb is
:::: inappropriate for the athletically inclined.
::::
:::: On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
:::: (assuming 35 calories per mile). But, you only consumed
:::: about 500 calories during the ride, and your breakfast
:::: was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had
:::: been "low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally,
:::: you rode "hard"...when you do that, your body needs
:::: carbs...but, you've not been consuming sufficient carbs
:::: for days.
::::
:::: I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
:::: hour or two, you should try to consume around 250
:::: calories per hour. This won't replace all the calories
:::: you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow),
:::: but will help prevent the bonk.
::::
:::: Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good
:::: idea...but, your eating habits before and during the
:::: ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"
::::
:::: GG
::::
:::
::: Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4
::: hours on Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of
::: bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the day
::: before.
:::
::: No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and
::: had some coffee with splenda, then took a nap.
:::
::: Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.
::
:: How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?
::
:: While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work
:: for you, I doubt it would work for most folks. I could
:: not imagine doing a multi-hour ride on only a piece of
:: bacon (roughly 100 calories). I've seen, and experienced,
:: the bonk too many times, and that "breakfast" is a recipe
:: for bonking for most folks that I know.

I think the factors are very rider specific. I'm heavy, and
I know that I'l lhave major issues because on my routes I'm
doing a lot of uphill climbing and I try to push my way up
as fast as I can. This results in my HR going up quite high,
usually over and over. I think Curt just found his limit,
even though he only weighs 180 lbs.

::
:: Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance
:: athletes emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs
:: before and during the ride, with carbs and protein post-
:: ride. Perhaps it's different for you, but I doubt we'll
:: be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon before this
:: year's Alpe d'Huez stage.

I agree. But I would not encourage any LCer to take extra
carbs until they learn where and what kind of riding causes
them to hit the wall.

Badger_South wrote:
:: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:11:34 -0700, "GaryG"
:: <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
::
::: How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?
::
:: Only 35 miles - I'm still a biking wimp. ;-<
::
::: While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work
::: for you, I doubt it would work for most folks. I could
::: not imagine doing a multi-hour ride on only a piece of
::: bacon (roughly 100 calories). I've seen, and
::: experienced, the bonk too many times, and that
::: "breakfast" is a recipe for bonking for most folks that
::: I know.
::
:: Anything over my longest ride and I'll let a piece of
:: hard candy dissolve, or munch a few M&Ms. But I'm still
:: pushing it, both pace and distance.
::
::: Most of the research I've read on nutrition for
::: endurance athletes emphasizes the importance of
::: consuming carbs before and during the ride, with carbs
::: and protein post-ride. Perhaps it's different for you,
::: but I doubt we'll be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for
::: bacon before this year's Alpe d'Huez stage.
::
:: Haha. Good one. But as some have said, more and more
:: endurance athletes are trying the LC diet and doing OK,
:: along with supplementation during the 'window'. For the
:: really long events, like adventure racing, they're pretty
:: much all gone to liquid fuel during the event. Note the
:: posting from one biker who mentions that without the
:: excessive carbs he's no longer getting that sleepy
:: feeling mid-day, etc.
::
:: It's a fun experiment, and who knows how far it can be
:: taken? But to be fair, I always take some glucose snacks
:: along just in case.

Me too.

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:11:34 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?

Only 35 miles - I'm still a biking wimp. ;-<

Quoted message said:

While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work
for you, I doubt

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would work for most folks. I could not imagine doing a
multi-hour ride

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only a piece of bacon (roughly 100 calories). I've
seen, and

experienced,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bonk too many times, and that "breakfast" is a recipe
for bonking for most folks that I know.

Anything over my longest ride and I'll let a piece of hard
candy dissolve, or munch a few M&Ms. But I'm still pushing
it, both pace and distance.

Quoted message said:

Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance
athletes emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs
before and during the ride, with carbs and protein post-
ride. Perhaps it's different for you, but I doubt we'll
be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon before this

year's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Alpe d'Huez stage.

Haha. Good one. But as some have said, more and more
endurance athletes

are

Quoted message said:

trying the LC diet and doing OK, along with
supplementation during the 'window'. For the really long
events, like adventure racing, they're

pretty

Quoted message said:

much all gone to liquid fuel during the event. Note the
posting from one biker who mentions that without the
excessive carbs he's no longer getting that sleepy feeling
mid-day, etc.

Ditto on the sleepy mid-day feelings. Years ago I tried a
very low-fat diet, and found that I would get very sleepy
around 3 pm. I don't do low-carb, but nowadays I always
try to get some good protein with lunch. It seems to help
avoid the blood sugar crash in the afternoon and I don't
get sleepy. It's still a "slow" time for me compared to
the morning, however, so perhaps it's just part of my
natural pattern.

GG

Quoted message said:

It's a fun experiment, and who knows how far it can be
taken? But to be fair, I always take some glucose snacks
along just in case.

-B

Curt --

I suggest that when you do your 150 mile ride, that you ride
at your usual training intensity as much as possible and not
try to "push it" do any new intensity levels. Basically,
ride like you train and don't try anything know. Do a
"carbup" the day before (low fat / high carb but NOT
excessive calories) and consume small amounts of carbs (30
to 40 g) even hour or so during the ride. Then do the carb /
protein thing afterwards, at about a 4 to 1 ratio (carb :
protein). As long as you don't overeat in terms of calories,
you can low weight while maintaining the LC program. Or you
can leave the weight loss for the other days and just
maintain on that weekend.

Whatever you decide to do, I'll be looking for a full
report! Good luck!

curt wrote:
:: I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard.
:: The weather was great and I know I was hydrated. I have
:: been on a low carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until
:: Saturday night, which was the night before the ride. I
:: ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate
:: a banana and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I
:: got to the ride start. I set out and pretty much pushed
:: from the start. I felt really pretty good on the ride.
:: Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and
:: 1/2 of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride
:: I ate 1/2 of a sandwich and another cookie and some more
:: water. I was only drinking water on this ride. I felt
:: okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up
:: and felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head
:: lower for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some
:: blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour or so and now
:: feel much better.
::
:: Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did
:: I get dizzy?
::
:: Thanks, Curt

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours
on Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had
two hamburgers and some lettuce the day before.

No bonk. Rode hard.

If what you wrote is true, you didn't ride hard. Riding hard
will deplete your glycogen stores in less than two hours. If
I were to guess, I'd say that you rode at a moderate pace.

Typical nutrition requirements for different effort zones:

Zone 1: no need to eat Zone 2: no need to eat, except on
ultra rides Zone 3: no longer that 4 hours without food Zone
4: eat every hour Zone 5: doesn't matter, too short a time
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

curt said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
hard. The weather was great and I know I was hydrated.
I have been on a low carb diet pretty strict from
Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night
before the ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad.
The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to
the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt
really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2
bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate
1/2 of a sandwich and another cookie and some more water.
I was only drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit
dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower
for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry
yogurt and laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did
I get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

There could be many reasons for feeling dizzy, but despite
my leanings towards LC, I think you did the right thing in
picking the foods you did post-ride. I often listen to my
'internal voice' on what foods to eat when I'm LC-ing,
b/c, IMO, my body's needs, due to the clean and frugal
eating, are easier to 'read'.

Make sure you're taking the suggested vits and supps on
the LC plan, including minerals (potassium and calcium
supplements).

You might want to experiment with targetted, or cyclical
ketogenic diet if you're doing long rides at higher
intensity.

Good job, btw, on the ride!

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Thanks for the response. Curt

"GaryG" <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard.
The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low
carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until Saturday
night, which was the night before the ride. I ate sushi
that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to
the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt
really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2
bananas and 1/2

of

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate
1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and another cookie and some more water. I was only
drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit
dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower
for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry
yogurt and laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did
I get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason
why many folks think that low-carb is inappropriate for
the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
(assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories
during the ride, and your breakfast was probably only
around 400 calories. And, you had been "low-carbing" for
days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode "hard"...when
you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been
consuming sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
hour or two, you should try to consume around 250 calories
per hour. This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very,
very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but,
your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Yeah, I think the lack of carbs and me pushing so hard made
it a really bad combination. Glad I didn't bonk mid ride,
but after. Not a very good feeling to say the least.

Doh....yeah, that about says it. Curt

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty
hard. The weather was great and I know I was hydrated.
I have been on a low carb diet pretty strict from
Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night
before the ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad.
The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to
the ride start. I set out and pretty much pushed from
the start. I felt really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2
bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I
ate 1/2 of a sandwich and another cookie and some
more water. I was only drinking water on this ride. I
felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I
stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head
lower for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some
blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour or so and
now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why
did I get dizzy?

Thanks, Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one
reason why many folks think that low-carb is
inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories
(assuming 35 calories per mile). But, you only consumed
about 500 calories during the ride, and your breakfast
was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been
"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you
rode "hard"...when you do that, your body needs
carbs...but, you've not been consuming sufficient carbs
for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an
hour or two, you should try to consume around 250
calories per hour. This won't replace all the calories
you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but
will help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but,
your eating habits before and during the ride are a
classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours
on Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had
two hamburgers and some lettuce the day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had
some coffee with splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

That would likely be maybe .25 lbs of fat, and 1.75
lbs of water.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

Interesting Terry. I can ride 40 or so miles really hard on
next to nothing in my stomach. For some reason this 75 was
too much for me on what I ate.

Thanks, Curt

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tmorse-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4
hours on Saturday on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers
and some lettuce

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

day before.

No bonk. Rode hard.

If what you wrote is true, you didn't ride hard. Riding
hard will deplete your glycogen stores in less than two
hours. If I were to guess, I'd say that you rode at a
moderate pace.

Typical nutrition requirements for different effort zones:

Zone 1: no need to eat Zone 2: no need to eat, except
on ultra rides Zone 3: no longer that 4 hours without
food Zone 4: eat every hour Zone 5: doesn't matter, too
short a time
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Terry Morse said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours
on Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had
two hamburgers and some lettuce the day before.

No bonk. Rode hard.

If what you wrote is true, you didn't ride hard. Riding
hard will deplete your glycogen stores in less than two
hours. If I were to guess, I'd say that you rode at a
moderate pace.

Probably was passed by a couple of snails. A turtle whizzed
by too quick to tell if it was riding a bike:

terrymorse.communroe.jpgOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Typical nutrition requirements for different effort zones:

Zone 1: no need to eat Zone 2: no need to eat, except
on ultra rides Zone 3: no longer that 4 hours without
food Zone 4: eat every hour Zone 5: doesn't matter, too
short a time

OK, so noted.

-Badger