What did I do wrong? re: nutrition?

curt said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather was
great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before the
ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a banana
and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start. I
set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good on
the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of a
peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a sandwich
and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on this
ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up and
felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate
some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour
or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

There could be many reasons for feeling dizzy, but despite my leanings
towards LC, I think you did the right thing in picking the foods you did
post-ride. I often listen to my 'internal voice' on what foods to eat when
I'm LC-ing, b/c, IMO, my body's needs, due to the clean and frugal eating,
are easier to 'read'.

Make sure you're taking the suggested vits and supps on the LC plan,
including minerals (potassium and calcium supplements).

You might want to experiment with targetted, or cyclical ketogenic diet if
you're doing long rides at higher intensity.

Good job, btw, on the ride!

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

I get dizzy when I run out of energy or bonk. sounds like you needed a bit more
food.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather was
great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before the
ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start. I
set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a sandwich
and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on this
ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate
some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour
or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why many folks
think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming 35 calories
per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories during the ride, and
your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been
"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode "hard"...when
you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or two, you
should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This won't replace all
the calories you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but will
help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your eating habits
before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather was
great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before the
ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start. I
set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a sandwich
and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on this
ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate
some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour
or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why many folks
think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming 35 calories
per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories during the ride, and
your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been
"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode "hard"...when
you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or two, you
should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This won't replace all
the calories you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but will
help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your eating habits
before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on a
a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the
day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had some coffee with
splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I

ate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why many

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories during the ride,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been
"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode

"hard"...when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or two, you
should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on a
a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the
day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had some coffee

with

Quoted message said:

splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Thanks for the replies. I to ride up to 40 miles or so and can eat
whatever. I rode 50 on two eggs and some bacon and a banana, but it was at
a slower pace. For some reason this 75 really took it out of me.

I think I will have to eat more food on this type of ride. I had enough in
me to finish strong, but after I soon went down hill.

Thanks,
Curt

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet

pretty

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a
banana
> and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride

start.

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on
> the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and

1/2

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a
> peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I

ate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> or so and now feel much better.
>
> Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get

dizzy?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Thanks,
> Curt
>

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why many

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories during the ride,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode

"hard"...when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or two,

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had some coffee

with

Quoted message said:

splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Thanks for the replies. I to ride up to 40 miles or so and can eat
whatever. I rode 50 on two eggs and some bacon and a banana, but it was

at

Quoted message said:

a slower pace. For some reason this 75 really took it out of me.

I think I will have to eat more food on this type of ride. I had enough

in

Quoted message said:

me to finish strong, but after I soon went down hill.

Thanks,
Curt

I think how hard you ride has a lot to do with it. If you're riding at a
pretty easy pace, your body is able to keep up with your energy needs by
converting stored fats. But, at higher intensities and longer efforts, your
body burns mostly stored glycogens (carbs), and has a hard time keeping up
with demand unless you take some more carbs on board during the ride.

GG

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I

ate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why many

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories during the ride,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been
"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode

"hard"...when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or two, you
should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on a
a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the
day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had some coffee

with

Quoted message said:

splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?

While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work for you, I doubt it
would work for most folks. I could not imagine doing a multi-hour ride on
only a piece of bacon (roughly 100 calories). I've seen, and experienced,
the bonk too many times, and that "breakfast" is a recipe for bonking for
most folks that I know.

Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance athletes
emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs before and during the ride,
with carbs and protein post-ride. Perhaps it's different for you, but I
doubt we'll be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon before this year's
Alpe d'Huez stage.

Quoted message said:

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:11:34 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?

Only 35 miles - I'm still a biking wimp. ;-<

Quoted message said:

While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work for you, I doubt it
would work for most folks. I could not imagine doing a multi-hour ride on
only a piece of bacon (roughly 100 calories). I've seen, and experienced,
the bonk too many times, and that "breakfast" is a recipe for bonking for
most folks that I know.

Anything over my longest ride and I'll let a piece of hard candy dissolve,
or munch a few M&Ms. But I'm still pushing it, both pace and distance.

Quoted message said:

Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance athletes
emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs before and during the ride,
with carbs and protein post-ride. Perhaps it's different for you, but I
doubt we'll be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon before this year's
Alpe d'Huez stage.

Haha. Good one. But as some have said, more and more endurance athletes are
trying the LC diet and doing OK, along with supplementation during the
'window'. For the really long events, like adventure racing, they're pretty
much all gone to liquid fuel during the event. Note the posting from one
biker who mentions that without the excessive carbs he's no longer getting
that sleepy feeling mid-day, etc.

It's a fun experiment, and who knows how far it can be taken? But to be
fair, I always take some glucose snacks along just in case.

-B

GaryG wrote:
:: "curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:::
::: "Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::: news:[email hidden]...
:::: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"
:::: <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
::::
::::: "curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
::::: news:[email hidden]...
:::::: I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The
:::::: weather was great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a
:::::: low carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until Saturday night,
:::::: which was the night before the ride. I ate sushi that night and
:::::: a salad. The next morning I ate a banana and piece of chicken
:::::: sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start. I set out and
:::::: pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good on
:::::: the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas
:::::: and
:: 1/2
::: of
::::: a
:::::: peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a
:::::: sandwich and another cookie and some more water. I was only
:::::: drinking water on this ride. I felt okay coming home but began
:::::: to get a bit dizzy. I stood up and felt really dizzy for a bit
:::::: and had to put my head lower for few. I ate some rice, pasta,
:::::: fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour or so
:::::: and now feel much better.
::::::
:::::: Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get
:::::: dizzy?
::::::
:::::: Thanks,
:::::: Curt
::::::
:::::
::::: It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why
::::: many folks think that low-carb is inappropriate for the
::::: athletically inclined.
:::::
::::: On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming
::::: 35 calories per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories
::::: during the ride, and your breakfast was probably only around 400
::::: calories. And, you had been "low-carbing" for days prior to the
::::: ride. Finally, you rode "hard"...when you do that, your body
::::: needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming sufficient carbs for
::::: days.
:::::
::::: I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or
::::: two, you should try to consume around 250 calories per hour.
::::: This won't replace all the calories you're burning (unless you're
::::: going very, very slow), but will help prevent the bonk.
:::::
::::: Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your
::::: eating habits before and during the ride are a classic case of,
::::: "Doh!"
:::::
::::: GG
:::::
::::
:::: Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on
:::: Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two
:::: hamburgers and some lettuce the day before.
::::
:::: No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had some
:::: coffee with splenda, then took a nap.
::::
:::: Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.
::::
:::: -Badger
:::: "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"
:::
::: Thanks for the replies. I to ride up to 40 miles or so and can eat
::: whatever. I rode 50 on two eggs and some bacon and a banana, but
::: it was at a slower pace. For some reason this 75 really took it
::: out of me.
:::
::: I think I will have to eat more food on this type of ride. I had
::: enough in me to finish strong, but after I soon went down hill.
:::
::: Thanks,
::: Curt
:::
::
:: I think how hard you ride has a lot to do with it. If you're riding
:: at a pretty easy pace, your body is able to keep up with your energy
:: needs by converting stored fats. But, at higher intensities and
:: longer efforts, your body burns mostly stored glycogens (carbs), and
:: has a hard time keeping up with demand unless you take some more
:: carbs on board during the ride.

I think that definitely is a factor. I note that on my rides I going upto
and above 90% of my 220-age heart rate max several times on a 35-mile ride
through the hills of upstate SC. Afterwards I have major BG drops.

GaryG wrote:
:: "Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"
::: <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
:::
:::: "curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:::: news:[email hidden]...
::::: I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The
::::: weather was great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a
::::: low carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until Saturday night,
::::: which was the night before the ride. I ate sushi that night and
::::: a salad. The next morning I ate a banana and piece of chicken
::::: sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start. I set out and
::::: pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good on
::::: the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas
::::: and 1/2 of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I
::::: ate 1/2 of a sandwich and another cookie and some more water. I
::::: was only drinking water on this ride. I felt okay coming home
::::: but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up and felt really dizzy
::::: for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate some rice,
::::: pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour
::::: or so and now feel much better.
:::::
::::: Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get
::::: dizzy?
:::::
::::: Thanks,
::::: Curt
:::::
::::
:::: It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why
:::: many folks think that low-carb is inappropriate for the
:::: athletically inclined.
::::
:::: On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming
:::: 35 calories per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories
:::: during the ride, and your breakfast was probably only around 400
:::: calories. And, you had been "low-carbing" for days prior to the
:::: ride. Finally, you rode "hard"...when you do that, your body
:::: needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming sufficient carbs for
:::: days.
::::
:::: I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or
:::: two, you should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This
:::: won't replace all the calories you're burning (unless you're going
:::: very, very slow), but will help prevent the bonk.
::::
:::: Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your
:::: eating habits before and during the ride are a classic case of,
:::: "Doh!"
::::
:::: GG
::::
:::
::: Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on
::: Saturday on a a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers
::: and some lettuce the day before.
:::
::: No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had some
::: coffee with splenda, then took a nap.
:::
::: Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.
::
:: How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?
::
:: While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work for you, I
:: doubt it would work for most folks. I could not imagine doing a
:: multi-hour ride on only a piece of bacon (roughly 100 calories).
:: I've seen, and experienced, the bonk too many times, and that
:: "breakfast" is a recipe for bonking for most folks that I know.

I think the factors are very rider specific. I'm heavy, and I know that I'l
lhave major issues because on my routes I'm doing a lot of uphill climbing
and I try to push my way up as fast as I can. This results in my HR going
up quite high, usually over and over. I think Curt just found his limit,
even though he only weighs 180 lbs.

::
:: Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance athletes
:: emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs before and during the
:: ride, with carbs and protein post-ride. Perhaps it's different for
:: you, but I doubt we'll be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon
:: before this year's Alpe d'Huez stage.

I agree. But I would not encourage any LCer to take extra carbs until they
learn where and what kind of riding causes them to hit the wall.

Badger_South wrote:
:: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:11:34 -0700, "GaryG"
:: <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote:
::
::: How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?
::
:: Only 35 miles - I'm still a biking wimp. ;-<
::
::: While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work for you, I
::: doubt it would work for most folks. I could not imagine doing a
::: multi-hour ride on only a piece of bacon (roughly 100 calories).
::: I've seen, and experienced, the bonk too many times, and that
::: "breakfast" is a recipe for bonking for most folks that I know.
::
:: Anything over my longest ride and I'll let a piece of hard candy
:: dissolve, or munch a few M&Ms. But I'm still pushing it, both pace
:: and distance.
::
::: Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance athletes
::: emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs before and during the
::: ride, with carbs and protein post-ride. Perhaps it's different for
::: you, but I doubt we'll be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon
::: before this year's Alpe d'Huez stage.
::
:: Haha. Good one. But as some have said, more and more endurance
:: athletes are trying the LC diet and doing OK, along with
:: supplementation during the 'window'. For the really long events,
:: like adventure racing, they're pretty much all gone to liquid fuel
:: during the event. Note the posting from one biker who mentions that
:: without the excessive carbs he's no longer getting that sleepy
:: feeling mid-day, etc.
::
:: It's a fun experiment, and who knows how far it can be taken? But to
:: be fair, I always take some glucose snacks along just in case.

Me too.

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:11:34 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

How far did you ride, and how much climbing did you do?

Only 35 miles - I'm still a biking wimp. ;-<

Quoted message said:

While your pre-ride bacon experiment-of-one might work for you, I doubt

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would work for most folks. I could not imagine doing a multi-hour ride

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only a piece of bacon (roughly 100 calories). I've seen, and

experienced,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bonk too many times, and that "breakfast" is a recipe for bonking for
most folks that I know.

Anything over my longest ride and I'll let a piece of hard candy dissolve,
or munch a few M&Ms. But I'm still pushing it, both pace and distance.

Quoted message said:

Most of the research I've read on nutrition for endurance athletes
emphasizes the importance of consuming carbs before and during the ride,
with carbs and protein post-ride. Perhaps it's different for you, but I
doubt we'll be seeing any TdF pros queueing up for bacon before this

year's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Alpe d'Huez stage.

Haha. Good one. But as some have said, more and more endurance athletes

are

Quoted message said:

trying the LC diet and doing OK, along with supplementation during the
'window'. For the really long events, like adventure racing, they're

pretty

Quoted message said:

much all gone to liquid fuel during the event. Note the posting from one
biker who mentions that without the excessive carbs he's no longer getting
that sleepy feeling mid-day, etc.

Ditto on the sleepy mid-day feelings. Years ago I tried a very low-fat
diet, and found that I would get very sleepy around 3 pm. I don't do
low-carb, but nowadays I always try to get some good protein with lunch. It
seems to help avoid the blood sugar crash in the afternoon and I don't get
sleepy. It's still a "slow" time for me compared to the morning, however,
so perhaps it's just part of my natural pattern.

GG

Quoted message said:

It's a fun experiment, and who knows how far it can be taken? But to be
fair, I always take some glucose snacks along just in case.

-B

Curt --

I suggest that when you do your 150 mile ride, that you ride at your usual
training intensity as much as possible and not try to "push it" do any new
intensity levels. Basically, ride like you train and don't try anything
know. Do a "carbup" the day before (low fat / high carb but NOT excessive
calories) and consume small amounts of carbs (30 to 40 g) even hour or so
during the ride. Then do the carb / protein thing afterwards, at about a 4
to 1 ratio (carb : protein). As long as you don't overeat in terms of
calories, you can low weight while maintaining the LC program. Or you can
leave the weight loss for the other days and just maintain on that weekend.

Whatever you decide to do, I'll be looking for a full report! Good luck!

curt wrote:
:: I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The
:: weather was great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low
:: carb diet pretty strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was
:: the night before the ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The
:: next morning I ate a banana and piece of chicken sausage and a
:: cookie when I got to the ride start. I set out and pretty much
:: pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good on the ride.
:: Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of a
:: peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a
:: sandwich and another cookie and some more water. I was only
:: drinking water on this ride. I felt okay coming home but began to
:: get a bit dizzy. I stood up and felt really dizzy for a bit and had
:: to put my head lower for few. I ate some rice, pasta, fish and some
:: blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour or so and now feel much
:: better.
::
:: Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get
:: dizzy?
::
:: Thanks,
:: Curt

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on a
a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the
day before.

No bonk. Rode hard.

If what you wrote is true, you didn't ride hard. Riding hard will
deplete your glycogen stores in less than two hours. If I were to
guess, I'd say that you rode at a moderate pace.

Typical nutrition requirements for different effort zones:

Zone 1: no need to eat
Zone 2: no need to eat, except on ultra rides
Zone 3: no longer that 4 hours without food
Zone 4: eat every hour
Zone 5: doesn't matter, too short a time
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:35:53 -0700, "GaryG"

garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather was
great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before the
ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start. I
set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a sandwich
and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on this
ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate
some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an hour
or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why many folks
think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming 35 calories
per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories during the ride, and
your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been
"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode "hard"...when
you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or two, you
should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This won't replace all
the calories you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but will
help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your eating habits
before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on a
a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the
day before.

No bonk. Rode hard. Got back and drank a diet soda and had some coffee with
splenda, then took a nap.

Lost 2 lbs, and kept 'em off through this pm.

That would likely be maybe .25 lbs of fat, and 1.75 lbs of water.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

curt said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather was
great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before the
ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty good

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2 of

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a sandwich
and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate
some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

There could be many reasons for feeling dizzy, but despite my leanings
towards LC, I think you did the right thing in picking the foods you did
post-ride. I often listen to my 'internal voice' on what foods to eat when
I'm LC-ing, b/c, IMO, my body's needs, due to the clean and frugal eating,
are easier to 'read'.

Make sure you're taking the suggested vits and supps on the LC plan,
including minerals (potassium and calcium supplements).

You might want to experiment with targetted, or cyclical ketogenic diet if
you're doing long rides at higher intensity.

Good job, btw, on the ride!

-Badger
"World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Thanks for the response.
Curt

"GaryG" <garyg@shasta_SPAMBEGONE_software.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was on a 75 mile ride today and pushed it pretty hard. The weather

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great and I know I was hydrated. I have been on a low carb diet pretty
strict from Tuesday until Saturday night, which was the night before the
ride. I ate sushi that night and a salad. The next morning I ate a

banana

Quoted message said:

and piece of chicken sausage and a cookie when I got to the ride start.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set out and pretty much pushed from the start. I felt really pretty

good

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

the ride. Stopped a few times and ate a total of 1 1/2 bananas and 1/2

of

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

peanut butter and jelly sandwich. After the ride I ate 1/2 of a

sandwich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and another cookie and some more water. I was only drinking water on

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride. I felt okay coming home but began to get a bit dizzy. I stood up

and

Quoted message said:

felt really dizzy for a bit and had to put my head lower for few. I ate
some rice, pasta, fish and some blueberry yogurt and laid down for an

hour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or so and now feel much better.

Did I not eat enough? Should I add carb earlier? Why did I get dizzy?

Thanks,
Curt

It sounds like a typical low-carb bonk. This is one reason why many folks
think that low-carb is inappropriate for the athletically inclined.

On your ride, you probably burned around 2600 calories (assuming 35

calories

Quoted message said:

per mile). But, you only consumed about 500 calories during the ride, and
your breakfast was probably only around 400 calories. And, you had been
"low-carbing" for days prior to the ride. Finally, you rode "hard"...when
you do that, your body needs carbs...but, you've not been consuming
sufficient carbs for days.

I've heard it said that on rides lasting longer than an hour or two, you
should try to consume around 250 calories per hour. This won't replace

all

Quoted message said:

the calories you're burning (unless you're going very, very slow), but

will

Quoted message said:

help prevent the bonk.

Eating carbs and protein post-ride was a good idea...but, your eating

habits

Quoted message said:

before and during the ride are a classic case of, "Doh!"

GG

Yeah, I think the lack of carbs and me pushing so hard made it a really bad
combination. Glad I didn't bonk mid ride, but after. Not a very good
feeling to say the least.

Doh....yeah, that about says it.
Curt

Interesting Terry. I can ride 40 or so miles really hard on next to nothing
in my stomach. For some reason this 75 was too much for me on what I ate.

Thanks,
Curt

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

day before.

No bonk. Rode hard.

If what you wrote is true, you didn't ride hard. Riding hard will
deplete your glycogen stores in less than two hours. If I were to
guess, I'd say that you rode at a moderate pace.

Typical nutrition requirements for different effort zones:

Zone 1: no need to eat
Zone 2: no need to eat, except on ultra rides
Zone 3: no longer that 4 hours without food
Zone 4: eat every hour
Zone 5: doesn't matter, too short a time
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Terry Morse said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Badger_South said:

Pseudo-scientific. More data was needed. I rode 2.4 hours on Saturday on a
a breakfast of one piece of bacon. Had two hamburgers and some lettuce the
day before.

No bonk. Rode hard.

If what you wrote is true, you didn't ride hard. Riding hard will
deplete your glycogen stores in less than two hours. If I were to
guess, I'd say that you rode at a moderate pace.

Probably was passed by a couple of snails. A turtle whizzed by too quick to
tell if it was riding a bike:

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/munroe.jpg

Quoted message said:

Typical nutrition requirements for different effort zones:

Zone 1: no need to eat
Zone 2: no need to eat, except on ultra rides
Zone 3: no longer that 4 hours without food
Zone 4: eat every hour
Zone 5: doesn't matter, too short a time

OK, so noted.

-Badger