What defines a cyclepath.

A small correction: the 1972 Highway Code actually says:
"Route for cyclists and moped riders (compulsory)"
Even more intriguing.

Not intriguing to me; that is exactly what I have been describing them
as. And they were not the same thing as cycle paths that currently
exist.

On 14 Nov 2004 04:30:23 -0800 someone who may be "MartinM"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

but the blue circle means compulsory for someone or other:

As it says at http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs04.shtml, "Signs
with blue circles but no red border mostly give positive
instruction."

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/sign076.shtml is a good example of
this, "Vehicles may pass either side to reach same destination".

I suspect that the Department of Roads was trying to force cyclists
to use cycle lanes at the time, as part of their strategy to get
these dammed cyclists out of the way. They either "accidentally" put
it in the publication, or assumed they would have had their wicked
way by the time it was published.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

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On 14 Nov 2004 05:58:13 -0800 someone who may be "MartinM"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Not intriguing to me; that is exactly what I have been describing them
as.

But, one is supposed to keep up with the Highway Code and we know
this wording has not been used for perhaps two decades.

Quoted message said:

And they were not the same thing as cycle paths that currently
exist.

What were they like them?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

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On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:45:50 -0000 someone who may be Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

But it is obvious that while removing cyclists will prevent a repeat of
that tragic death (I believe there was only one), removing cars would
have no effect on the number of driver / passenger casualties and
deaths... er... hang on, I think I've got an idea!

Is there any update on this one David?

The Council "justified" the ban on the basis of one death in ten
years.

A month or two ago the Council asked if I wished to discuss it
further. I asked them how many roads they had banned motorists from
because there had been one death in ten years? Since then the
silence has been deafening. Were I to follow this silence up I might
tell them exactly what I think of them.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

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Quoted message said:

And they were not the same thing as cycle paths that currently
exist.

What were they like then?

(scratches head) IIRC cordoned off lanes with a kerb. Never actually
used one but saw them from the car on the way up to London. Remember
thinking I would have to use one if my moped ever got that far (no
chance, heap of junk Puch yellow peril!)

Quoted message said:

And they were not the same thing as cycle paths that currently
exist.

What were they like them?
(scratches head) IIRC cordoned off lanes with a kerb; never used one
as my heap of junk moped would never have got that far.

uk.rec.motorcycles would probably throw up more, be my guest if you
don't mind being called a "tree hugging freeloading [censored]" (from a
recent thread on the same subject)

MartinM said:

IIRC cordoned off lanes with a kerb. Never actually
used one but saw them from the car on the way up to London.

On the A40?

--
Guy

John Pitcock said:

My 1972 edition of the Highway Code says "Cycle lane, compulsory" but the
word "compulsory" hasn't been in subsequent editions.

Maybe this is where the confusion started.

This was before I was born, so I obviously wasn't looking into the
detail of the law back then, but I'd be surprised if it's actually
changed. "Compulsory" now means that it is compulsory for other classes
of vehicle to stay out, not for cycles to stay in. I suspect it meant
the same 32 years ago. I can certainly see where the confusion would
come from, though.

The latest legislation I could find on this was the 2002 Traffic Sign
Regulations:
<URL:http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm>
which clearly state that the sign refers to a "Route for use by pedal
cycles only":
<URL:http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ab.gif>

Incidentally, the same document defines a "cycle lane" and a "cycle
track", but not a "cycle path". I shall leave it as an exercise for the
interested reader to follow the definitions through ;-)

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Just zis Guy said:

MartinM said:

IIRC cordoned off lanes with a kerb. Never actually
used one but saw them from the car on the way up to London.

A40?

no A217, but would not be surprised if A40 had them as well as it was
built in the age of "car is king"
(BTW I now use the cycle track alongside it)

MartinM [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

uk.rec.motorcycles would probably throw up more, be my guest if you
don't mind being called a "tree hugging freeloading [censored]" (from a
recent thread on the same subject)

Please. "Whinger"... not "[censored]". Although the thread was almost enough
to make me want to write a reply.

Jon

Danny Colyer said:

This was before I was born, so I obviously wasn't looking into the
detail of the law back then, but I'd be surprised if it's actually
changed.

Hmmm. It's probably due to some sort of confusion. There were some
cycle lanes set up shortly after the war, IIRC, whch were compulsory,
but I don't know that the blue and white sign ever applied to them. But
I know a man who does, as they say, and a question will be fired off as
soon as I get home.

--
Guy

Please. "Whinger"... not "[censored]". Although the thread was almost enough
to make me want to write a reply.

you're a braver man than I ;-)
I think the line about riding motorbikes on the pavement is also very
telling.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:09:51 GMT, "John Pitcock"
<j-pitcock(nospam)@msn.com> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

My 1972 edition of the Highway Code says "Cycle lane, compulsory" but the
word "compulsory" hasn't been in subsequent editions.

According to John Franklin the round sign used to mean compulsory and
the rectangular sign advisory.  The meaning was changed in the late
70s or early 80s. The round sign retains its compulsory meaning in
most other countries.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:09:51 GMT, "John Pitcock"
<j-pitcock(nospam)@msn.com> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

My 1972 edition of the Highway Code says "Cycle lane, compulsory" but the
word "compulsory" hasn't been in subsequent editions.

According to John Franklin the round sign used to mean compulsory and
the rectangular sign advisory. The meaning was changed in the late
70s or early 80s. The round sign retains its compulsory meaning in
most other countries.

Finland being one (the only other reference I could find to it)

Just zis Guy said:

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:09:51 GMT, "John Pitcock"
<j-pitcock(nospam)@msn.com> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

My 1972 edition of the Highway Code says "Cycle lane, compulsory"

but the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

word "compulsory" hasn't been in subsequent editions.

According to John Franklin the round sign used to mean compulsory and
the rectangular sign advisory. The meaning was changed in the late
70s or early 80s. The round sign retains its compulsory meaning in
most other countries.

Thank You
stoney silence from all the other posters who told me I was talking
b****cks I see ;-)

On 15/11/04 10:31 am, in article
[email hidden], "MartinM"

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:09:51 GMT, "John Pitcock"
<j-pitcock(nospam)@msn.com> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

My 1972 edition of the Highway Code says "Cycle lane, compulsory"

but the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

word "compulsory" hasn't been in subsequent editions.

According to John Franklin the round sign used to mean compulsory and
the rectangular sign advisory. The meaning was changed in the late
70s or early 80s. The round sign retains its compulsory meaning in
most other countries.

Thank You
stoney silence from all the other posters who told me I was talking
b****cks I see ;-)

You were and still are. Compulsory does not mean that you *have* to use it
(ie it is in a different sense to that one might usually expect.) It is
compulsory in that it is an exclusion of all but bicycles from that path.

Much like mandatory and advisory cycle lanes.

...d

MartinM said:

Just zis Guy said:

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:09:51 GMT, "John Pitcock"
<j-pitcock(nospam)@msn.com> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

My 1972 edition of the Highway Code says "Cycle lane, compulsory"

but the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

word "compulsory" hasn't been in subsequent editions.

According to John Franklin the round sign used to mean compulsory and
the rectangular sign advisory. The meaning was changed in the late
70s or early 80s. The round sign retains its compulsory meaning in
most other countries.

Thank You
stoney silence from all the other posters who told me I was talking
b****cks I see ;-)

That's because there's nothing, so far, demonstrating otherwise...

I'll be hapy to apologise if someone can point to any kind of
reasonably authorative source demostrating that there was ever
compulsion on cylists to use cycle lanes. Describing something as
"compulsory" does not do so. Compare with the current situation where
we have "mandatory" cycle lanes - it is _not_ mandatory for cyclists
to use them, rather for motorists not to.

David Martin said:

On 15/11/04 10:31 am, in article
[email hidden], "MartinM"

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:09:51 GMT, "John Pitcock"
<j-pitcock(nospam)@msn.com> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

> My 1972 edition of the Highway Code says "Cycle lane, compulsory"

but the

Quoted message said:

> word "compulsory" hasn't been in subsequent editions.

According to John Franklin the round sign used to mean compulsory

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the rectangular sign advisory. The meaning was changed in the

late

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

70s or early 80s. The round sign retains its compulsory meaning in
most other countries.

Thank You
stoney silence from all the other posters who told me I was talking
b****cks I see ;-)

You were and still are. Compulsory does not mean that you *have* to

use it

Quoted message said:

(ie it is in a different sense to that one might usually expect.) It

is

Quoted message said:

compulsory in that it is an exclusion of all but bicycles from that

path.

and mopeds (which are not allowed on current ones)
If it was an exclusion of other vehicles it would have a red circle.

I have e-mailed John Franklin to request clarification, and will also
contact the DfT.