What Are We Doing Wrong ?

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-10877/conconi.htm

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by edd
I'm just suggesting that there is still a very good argument to train in 2.5 hour blocks at a lower intensity.. one that can be sustained or can be performed where the ( volume/intensity/recovery/best measured gains ) calculation is understood....

You, having read the same study..... your understanding of the implications are ?

2.5 hr blocks are good to train glycogen stores and heart pump and because it's just fan!

I believe in this study because I started to use this principle in my training and I see huge progress on my trainer just in 8 weeks.
It's very easy to monitor progress on trainer on the same gear and with HRM :-)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by edd
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-10877/conconi.htm

I think it's different way but the same prinicple. No one knows perfect routine. There is a lot of these routines.
But body knows only how to escape and revive from higher loads.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
2.5 hr blocks are good to train glycogen stores and heart pump and because it's just fan!

I believe in this study because I started to use this principle in my training and I see huge progress on my trainer just in 8 weeks.
It's very easy to monitor progress on trainer on the same gear and with HRM :-)

my experience is the exact opposite. After reading the Hadd thing. I started doing 2 hour 70% max HR blocks. This after years of short intense block training. The gains were significant, really (same hills three gears up, no sweat )

( doing short intense blocks for so long ( years ) is weird I know, there is an explanation, it's not relevant )

The other staple drills that I can see measured gains in me ( me being different the most ) are in the 3 x 7 min blocks with 4.5 min recoveries and the 30 min MSLL block..

me being different because I have a history in anaerobic sports. In this period of my training I spend only 6 minutes of the seven hours of my weekly training, in the anaerobic zone.

I have some nine different drills on the drawing board.. the connecting theme is specified cadence and time period and target heart rates. I’ve been riding hills and varying terrain and noting the cadences I adopt for them and then replicating that cadence on the stationary bike drills.

next year I’ll invest in a power metre, ( I just blew a bundle on a new bike )

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by edd
my experience is the exact opposite. After reading the Hadd thing. I started doing 2 hour 70% max HR blocks. This after years of short intense block training. The gains were significant, really (same hills three gears up, no sweat )

( doing short intense blocks for so long ( years ) is weird I know, there is an explanation, it's not relevant )

The other staple drills that I can see measured gains in me ( me being different the most ) are in the 3 x 7 min blocks with 4.5 min recoveries and the 30 min MSLL block..

me being different because I have a history in anaerobic sports. In this period of my training I spend only 6 minutes of the seven hours of my weekly training, in the anaerobic zone.

I have some nine different drills on the drawing board.. the connecting theme is specified cadence and time period and target heart rates. I’ve been riding hills and varying terrain and noting the cadences I adopt for them and then replicating that cadence on the stationary bike drills.

next year I’ll invest in a power metre, ( I just blew a bundle on a new bike )

excuse me. I send you personal message on anaerobic background. I'm also curious how do you do your workouts?
Pain, burning? at what level do you perceive them?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
curious how do you do your workouts?
Pain, burning? at what level do you perceive them?

Heart rate ( that is 3 beats up or down ) and a sense of effort in the legs.

set times blocks, big on intensity constants, no interruptions, absolute quality in the block regardless of duration.

big on appropriate recovery and not overtraining.

I feel a lot of people do too much low quality training, been on road rides with them, waste of time !!!!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by edd
PS...

to anyone reading this, I should add

even though we're discussing short intense drills here, the bulk of my training is large blocks of sustained aerobic work in what .. I think most coaches refer to as training in Zone 2.. this is a pretty broad zone and I think I'd like to poke a stick at this later in this thread, anyway this work has yielded some very good measured gains.. meanwhile you might like to read this...

http://www.abcc.freeserve.co.uk/wright1.html

Not only have I read that article but I have been doing those intervals for about 4 weeks building to 10 x 15 seconds sprints, 10 x 60 seconds bridging speed and 4 x 4 minute V02 max.

Stuart Dangerfield, the British TT ace and record holder who is the subject of the article, races in Sydney during the Northern winter (like now). See http://www.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/AUS/2004/mar04/mar02trek

The coach offers that the three phases of intervals take about 2.5 hours. It took me 3.5 hours (computer distance 96 kms with plenty of recovery spinning). So I felt more relieved when I checked the article's warm up, recovery and warm down periods to calculate it more like to 3 hours 10 minutes. The additional time would have been for connecting between different courses used for each phase.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by edd
PS...

to anyone reading this, I should add

even though we're discussing short intense drills here, the bulk of my training is large blocks of sustained aerobic work in what .. I think most coaches refer to as training in Zone 2.. this is a pretty broad zone and I think I'd like to poke a stick at this later in this thread, anyway this work has yielded some very good measured gains.. meanwhile you might like to read this...

http://www.abcc.freeserve.co.uk/wright1.html

This article also states a big lactate buildup during intervals (especially during long intervals I believe). This lactate buildup is very arguable. It's still unclear how massive and prolonged lactate buildup affects mitochondias. Some investigations tell about cristae thickening and destruction of mitochondias.
So it's still unclear what type of training is the best.
Some scientists suggest all-out sprints and short intervals (up to 40 sec). Types of training also must be muscle composition specific. Just look how will differ lactate production in running sprinters' quads and hamstrings and in tiny muscles of a skinny marathon runner.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
This article also states a big lactate buildup during intervals (especially during long intervals I believe). This lactate buildup is very arguable. It's still unclear how massive and prolonged lactate buildup affects mitochondias. Some investigations tell about cristae thickening and destruction of mitochondias.
So it's still unclear what type of training is the best.
Some scientists suggest all-out sprints and short intervals (up to 40 sec). Types of training also must be muscle composition specific. Just look how will differ lactate production in running sprinters' quads and hamstrings and in tiny muscles of a skinny marathon runner.

I have found that training really hard for short periods 4 to 8 minutes near threshold but not anaerobic, does not impact training volume that much.
I get my heart rate up over 90% only two or three times in an average weeks training and only for a moment or three

Training effect aside, there is an "old man might die on the bike" concern that tells me I should not surprise my heart with stuff it is not use too. So I visit all the training zones regularly to make sure I’m still welcome !

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by edd
I have found that training really hard for short periods 4 to 8 minutes near threshold but not anaerobic, does not impact training volume that much.
I get my heart rate up over 90% only two or three times in an average weeks training and only for a moment or three

Training effect aside, there is an "old man might die on the bike" concern that tells me I should not surprise my heart with stuff it is not use too. So I visit all the training zones regularly to make sure I’m still welcome !

So do your training use heart rates over anaerobic threshold or you hit higher rates ocassionally?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
So do your training use heart rates over anaerobic threshold or you hit higher rates ocassionally?

go to 88% of max heart rate for maybe 2 to 4 minutes atleast three times a week. ( I'm 55 max HR on bike 171) ( LT@157) can sustain HR of 154 for four minutes, HR of 150 for eight minutes, this feels good

go to 92% of max heart rate at least once a week, this usually occurs on road in hill climb hold till I reach top of the hill max about 1.5 min.

Been to HR of 168 bpm once on a hill had to stop and buy a pair of new legs, won't be doing that again soon !

Heart rate is variable depends on other stimulus..ie coffee etc.

Checked out the Carmichael's site found these drills and thought I'd try'em

5 x 4 min drill with 4.5 minute recoveries. drill consisted of 30 seconds at LT then 30 sec at breaking point back to 30 sec at LT etc.

Best we could do was 20 seconds at breaking point.... 15 seconds was tough enough...

Legs totally wasted today.... has to be factored in as last drill before a 2 day recovery....

Leaving them for later in the year !!!

I would like to start by saying TY to Edd, this has been the best thread I have seen on these forums to date, great information sharing and debate 🙂

I think you have a very good physical program for someone who has a few years continuos riding. Have you got the Mental side down yet? ie a measurable goal (had an issue with your stated goal I will cover later), measurable Objectives to help you make regular assessments of your program?

My issue with your goal to be the fastest man in your age group on the planet over short distances is this.... It is too broad and beyond your control, ie you cannot control a competitors time in a TT, if you smash a world record and have a brilliant ride but loose by 1 second to a guy who has a total blinder, you have failed your goal.
imo a goal must be Desirable, achievable (barely) and totally within your control...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Fixey
I would like to start by saying TY to Edd, this has been the best thread I have seen on these forums to date, great information sharing and debate 🙂

I think you have a very good physical program for someone who has a few years continuos riding. Have you got the Mental side down yet? ie a measurable goal (had an issue with your stated goal I will cover later), measurable Objectives to help you make regular assessments of your program?

My issue with your goal to be the fastest man in your age group on the planet over short distances is this.... It is too broad and beyond your control, ie you cannot control a competitors time in a TT, if you smash a world record and have a brilliant ride but loose by 1 second to a guy who has a total blinder, you have failed your goal.
imo a goal must be Desirable, achievable (barely) and totally within your control...

in response...

1. once you get to be 60 yrs old you don't have to be rational anymore !

2. if you don't achieve your goal, your to old and just "don't give a dam" enough to want to slit your wrists...

3. And if by some miracle you actually do it.. the thing you set out to do.. then your more then just dam lucky... your burdened with knowledge that you've got go out and find another bloody goal and you'd be looking 65 or 70 in the eye...

come on I'm gonna be tied....really...

PS... the mental thing is the only thing I've got down.... 15 years in martial arts, 2 national titles.... at 42... means nothing on the world stage... or in my kitchen.. wife not at all impressed

....hence my anaerobic ability... need five years to build a solid aerobic base

... went for a ride to day... every time I hit the top of the hill... straight to the big chain ring... gulp air and do it... yeah I'm mentally tough, most old ozzies are... just wish I had the legs to go with it !

The only thing set in stone boy-oh is one's epitaph

LOL, fair nough, I have many years Martial arts myself, a couple titles in my younger days. My wife isnt impressed either, I cant run fast though, hence my ribs are Hard as Hell...good luck mate, (a Kiwi wishing an aussie luck? go figure after the rugby world cup 😉 ) if you have the mental thing down, your physical plan is good as, all you really need is luck 🙂

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
So do your training use heart rates over anaerobic threshold or you hit higher rates ocassionally?

I must be doing something right... LT is now 163 ( was 157 )

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by edd
I must be doing something right... LT is now 163 ( was 157 )

I now also feel much better at HR over 180 (91% of my max HR) with my training.
But racing season starts in two weeks so I should be fast on trail not HR monitor ;-)

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
I now also feel much better at HR over 180 (91% of my max HR) with my training.
But racing season starts in two weeks so I should be fast on trail not HR monitor ;-)

My training volume has also gone up considerably. Last week 14 hours all up,
6 hours on indoor trainer and 8 hours on the road bike, weather has been really good, we ride hills, my climbing ability has improved also.

Having a day off today, I thought I'd be tired, but I feel great !

Use to have two days off a week, have cut that back to one day off. ( that is off the bikes altogether, I do some recovery rides in the training schedule )

I'm now into the four week cycle, volume is pretty constant between 10 and 12 hours a week with the intensity climbing over three weeks then dropping to 50% on the fourth week, that week being a recovery week.

Balance feels really good, I don't feel a over trained at all, and the gains are easily perceived, climbing hills has got so much easier.

This month I'm focused on slow cadence work (a Dot influence) big gear at 56 cad. Just coming to the end of the first week of it. I've taken to it like a duck to water.