What amazes me.

They are members of quackbusters. The posts about them on
this NG are the truth. They are like the misguided people that
join up with the terrorists. Their motivation is to hurt people, not help.
The Curezone exists to help people and doesn't
tolerate these people.

"hotmoon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

[email hidden] (hotmoon) wrote in news:2c44bad9.0310300910.319158b2
@posting.google.com:

Quoted message said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

The debunker want proof that a modality works. Unless you can provide proof,
you might as well rub magic water on your skin to rid yourself of ailments.
Anecdote is not proof.

r

--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

"hotmoon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

To keep some of those who claim to be alt.med practicioners but who are in
fact scam artists, hucksters and crooks from taking advantage many who may
not like conventional medicine. There are plenty of incidences on this
board where these scam artists attempt to sell colloidal silver, rife
machines, odd and assorted supplements and promote less than reputable
"health clinics" --- and the "debunkers" have steered them away.

Some of these "debunkers" do practice some "alt medicine", including herbs,
etc. But they do not do it blindly and without knowing what they are doing.

And to be clear: This is a newsgroup to DISCUSS alt.med -- the good and the
bad. This is not specifically a place to promote anything.

I'm here because I have seen some of the less than reputable treatments
being touted to parents of disabled kids... and I can at least knowlegibly
inform folks on a seperate listserv that I participate in. There are lots
of folks who are promoting chelation treatments for little kids --- a nasty
thing to put a child through for no good reason (the only reason is to put
money into the pockets of the chelation lab --- especially after they charge
lots of money to find "heavy metals" in the child's hair -- one parent wrote
in a panic that the report from Great Plains Lab said her toddler had
bismuth in his hair: bismuth is the active ingrediant in Pepto Bismol).

I also have a relative who is unemployed and plucking down much of her
savings on lots of strange "supplements" and compounds prescribed by her
naturapath --- and has gone off her anti-depressents. I dislike seeing her
going down this road --- but we cannot stop her, though we try to give her
what good information we have in a manner that will not distance her from
us.

Also, I live in an area that is finding a huge spike in vaccine preventable
diseases. This makes me angry, and I have a dislike of those who create
situations like this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3227345.stm
http://www.edinburghnews.com/index.cfm?id=1198972003
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-cough29.html

Quoted message said:

Subject: What amazes me.
From: [email hidden] (hotmoon)
Date: 10/30/2003 9:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

Yes, they are to be pitied.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

I have watched as "debunkers" have repeatedly tried to provide SOUND,
documented health information. For this, they are called parrots, lackeys,
pawns or members of EEeeeevil Organized Medicine.

I've watched debunkers try to help people understand that mental illness is a
real disease while "believers" have condemned them for pushing drugs on
children & being on the payroll of pharmaceutical companies.

I have watched as debunkers have attempt to educate the believers as to what
science is and how research is done. I've seen them explain basic premises of
logic and their applications. For this, I've seen them accused of turning
"Stupid Skeptic Tricks".

I have watched as debunkers have provided insight into the somatization
disorders of some of the believers. For this, they are called net-stalkers,
atheists, belittlers, and members of EEEEEeeeeevil Organized Medicine.

I have watched as spammers have come to MHA solely to hawk their wares. This
is a violation of the MHA charter. I've seen those same spammers lie about
their products, give specious medical advice, and try to profiteer of the
ignorance and desperation of others. I've only see a few "believers" ever
protest this behavior. I see far more of them encouraging their co-dependent
enablers to perpetuate this cycle of abusive posting.

I have watched as so-called believers deny basic science. They act is if
science is nothing more than an opinion purchased at auction. They not only
disparage the entire mainstream health care industry , they accuse them of
being in a global conspiracy to inflict suffering & profiteer off of it.

Does this sound at all like Spamming Dave? Does this sound a bit like Jan
Drew? Does it sound like Ilena Rose? Does this sound like Carole Hubbard?
Does it sound like John Gohde? Does it sound like Scudamore, MedTools,
Rod_Munch, JBain, GymBob, or rb?

Like the sound of one hand clapping, it most assuredly does!

Helping someone means telling them the truth. It means being consistent. It
requires a person to have intellectual honesty as well as some basic human
integrity. It requires a person to give up bigotry and prejudice in order to
serve others.

Does this sound a bit like Orac, CBI, Aloha Rich, Happy Dog, Mark Lowery,
hawki, Peter Bowditch and many others of the so-called "debunkers"?

Like the sound of one hand slapping sense into those beliefs are a foundation
of sand, it most assuredly does!

Roger, I suggest you search the google archive & peruse the past 5 years of MHA
postings, read the MHA 10 Commandments, and get back to me when you are done.

Peace-out!

....and I've watched them blindly believe each other also. (the debunkers)
So you are just as guilty.
Anth

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

I have watched as "debunkers" have repeatedly tried to provide SOUND,
documented health information. For this, they are called parrots,

lackeys,

Quoted message said:

pawns or members of EEeeeevil Organized Medicine.

I've watched debunkers try to help people understand that mental illness

is a

Quoted message said:

real disease while "believers" have condemned them for pushing drugs on
children & being on the payroll of pharmaceutical companies.

I have watched as debunkers have attempt to educate the believers as to

what

Quoted message said:

science is and how research is done. I've seen them explain basic

premises of

Quoted message said:

logic and their applications. For this, I've seen them accused of turning
"Stupid Skeptic Tricks".

I have watched as debunkers have provided insight into the somatization
disorders of some of the believers. For this, they are called

net-stalkers,

Quoted message said:

atheists, belittlers, and members of EEEEEeeeeevil Organized Medicine.

I have watched as spammers have come to MHA solely to hawk their wares.

This

Quoted message said:

is a violation of the MHA charter. I've seen those same spammers lie

about

Quoted message said:

their products, give specious medical advice, and try to profiteer of the
ignorance and desperation of others. I've only see a few "believers" ever
protest this behavior. I see far more of them encouraging their

co-dependent

Quoted message said:

enablers to perpetuate this cycle of abusive posting.

I have watched as so-called believers deny basic science. They act is if
science is nothing more than an opinion purchased at auction. They not

only

Quoted message said:

disparage the entire mainstream health care industry , they accuse them of
being in a global conspiracy to inflict suffering & profiteer off of it.

Does this sound at all like Spamming Dave? Does this sound a bit like Jan
Drew? Does it sound like Ilena Rose? Does this sound like Carole

Hubbard?

Quoted message said:

Does it sound like John Gohde? Does it sound like Scudamore, MedTools,
Rod_Munch, JBain, GymBob, or rb?

Like the sound of one hand clapping, it most assuredly does!

Helping someone means telling them the truth. It means being consistent.

It

Quoted message said:

requires a person to have intellectual honesty as well as some basic human
integrity. It requires a person to give up bigotry and prejudice in order

to

Quoted message said:

serve others.

Does this sound a bit like Orac, CBI, Aloha Rich, Happy Dog, Mark Lowery,
hawki, Peter Bowditch and many others of the so-called "debunkers"?

Like the sound of one hand slapping sense into those beliefs are a

foundation

Quoted message said:

of sand, it most assuredly does!

Roger, I suggest you search the google archive & peruse the past 5 years

of MHA

Quoted message said:

postings, read the MHA 10 Commandments, and get back to me when you are

done.

Quoted message said:

Peace-out!

In article <[email hidden]>,

hotmoon said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board.

Because this newsgroup (not "board"😉 is for *discussion.* It's not
for "let's all sit around and praise every alt health modality in the
world, and never say anything negative."

Quoted message said:

Their claim is that they want to help people, yet they treat
believers with such malice and so hurtfully.

Roger, let's avoid the excessive generalizations. There are plenty of
skeptics here who use alt health themselves. Me, for example. People
are not treated roughly because they are believers, they are treated
roughly because they deserve it. Many of them are spammers, a few are
just crazy, and many are way, way too credulous.

Quoted message said:

That does not sound like they want to help people?

I want people to avoid things that are either useless or can be
actively harmful. I won't claim to speak for the motivations of
others.

Quoted message said:

They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

Such as? I hope you're not about to dive into the ol' conspiracy
theory stuff again.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

....prove the conspiracy doesn't exist then?
Anth

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

hotmoon said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board.

Because this newsgroup (not "board"😉 is for *discussion.* It's not
for "let's all sit around and praise every alt health modality in the
world, and never say anything negative."

Quoted message said:

Their claim is that they want to help people, yet they treat
believers with such malice and so hurtfully.

Roger, let's avoid the excessive generalizations. There are plenty of
skeptics here who use alt health themselves. Me, for example. People
are not treated roughly because they are believers, they are treated
roughly because they deserve it. Many of them are spammers, a few are
just crazy, and many are way, way too credulous.

Quoted message said:

That does not sound like they want to help people?

I want people to avoid things that are either useless or can be
actively harmful. I won't claim to speak for the motivations of
others.

Quoted message said:

They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

Such as? I hope you're not about to dive into the ol' conspiracy
theory stuff again.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

I have watched as "debunkers" have repeatedly tried to provide SOUND,
documented health information. For this, they are called parrots,

lackeys,

Quoted message said:

pawns or members of EEeeeevil Organized Medicine.

I've watched debunkers try to help people understand that mental illness

is a

Quoted message said:

real disease while "believers" have condemned them for pushing drugs on
children & being on the payroll of pharmaceutical companies.

I have watched as debunkers have attempt to educate the believers as to

what

Quoted message said:

science is and how research is done. I've seen them explain basic

premises of

Quoted message said:

logic and their applications. For this, I've seen them accused of turning
"Stupid Skeptic Tricks".

I have watched as debunkers have provided insight into the somatization
disorders of some of the believers. For this, they are called

net-stalkers,

Quoted message said:

atheists, belittlers, and members of EEEEEeeeeevil Organized Medicine.

I have watched as spammers have come to MHA solely to hawk their wares.

This

Quoted message said:

is a violation of the MHA charter. I've seen those same spammers lie

about

Quoted message said:

their products, give specious medical advice, and try to profiteer of the
ignorance and desperation of others. I've only see a few "believers" ever
protest this behavior. I see far more of them encouraging their

co-dependent

Quoted message said:

enablers to perpetuate this cycle of abusive posting.

I have watched as so-called believers deny basic science. They act is if
science is nothing more than an opinion purchased at auction. They not

only

Quoted message said:

disparage the entire mainstream health care industry , they accuse them of
being in a global conspiracy to inflict suffering & profiteer off of it.

Does this sound at all like Spamming Dave? Does this sound a bit like Jan
Drew? Does it sound like Ilena Rose? Does this sound like Carole

Hubbard?

Quoted message said:

Does it sound like John Gohde? Does it sound like Scudamore, MedTools,
Rod_Munch, JBain, GymBob, or rb?

Like the sound of one hand clapping, it most assuredly does!

Helping someone means telling them the truth. It means being consistent.

It

Quoted message said:

requires a person to have intellectual honesty as well as some basic human
integrity. It requires a person to give up bigotry and prejudice in order

to

Quoted message said:

serve others.

Does this sound a bit like Orac, CBI, Aloha Rich, Happy Dog, Mark Lowery,
hawki, Peter Bowditch and many others of the so-called "debunkers"?

Like the sound of one hand slapping sense into those beliefs are a

foundation

Quoted message said:

of sand, it most assuredly does!

Roger, I suggest you search the google archive & peruse the past 5 years

of MHA

Quoted message said:

postings, read the MHA 10 Commandments, and get back to me when you are

done.

Quoted message said:

Peace-out!

This is either the ramblings of a poor deluded soul or the finest example of
an insult to
humaan intelligence.

Quoted message said:

...and I've watched them blindly believe each other also. (the debunkers)
So you are just as guilty.
Anth

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Anth, you've let the mental vacuum generated by your compatriots bring you down
to their level. You've resorted to making this type of accusation without any
evidence nor any basis.

Debunkers question. They are skeptics. They make mistakes and they admit
them.

Believers want to be saved. They are sheep. They can't admit to mistakes
because their entire self-worth is tied up in their belief system.

Do make a note of it.

Quoted message said:

...prove the conspiracy doesn't exist then?
Anth

How about proving that one exists? Don't you know that one can't prove a
negative? (That was a rhetorical question, we know that YOU know that already)

Why not find a single bit of objective evidence for this global conspiracy?
There must be tens of thousands, if not millions, of people in on "the scheme"
if it were actually real.

Get a pay stub or an instruction manual and post it to

www.credulous&paranoid.com

They do admit the mistakes?
Anth

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...and I've watched them blindly believe each other also. (the debunkers)
So you are just as guilty.
Anth

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Anth, you've let the mental vacuum generated by your compatriots bring you

down

Quoted message said:

to their level. You've resorted to making this type of accusation without

any

Quoted message said:

evidence nor any basis.

Debunkers question. They are skeptics. They make mistakes and they admit
them.

Believers want to be saved. They are sheep. They can't admit to mistakes
because their entire self-worth is tied up in their belief system.

Do make a note of it.

hotmoon said:

Why would debunkers be in this alternative health board. Their claim
is that they want to help people, yet they treat believers with such
malice and so hurtfully. That does not sound like they want to help
people? They have some other, significantly less noble, motivation.

You have mistaken Jan for one of the debunkers. She attacks
anyone who doesn't agree with her, makes groundless accusations,
and hurls malice-filled insults. She seems to have no other purpose
to be here than to smear mud on honest people.

As far as debunkers are concerned, what would you do if you saw
someone telling lies to sell a product -- possibly a harmful product --
if you knew the truth that any consumer of the product should know?
Would you remain silent? If only one side of the story were being
told, would you remain silent about the other side? Would you just
sit back and allow unscrupulous knaves to scam and hurt people?

Souless Reprobate & Spamming bag of Steaming Feces said:

Dave's story is either the ramblings of a poor deluded soul or the finest

example of

Quoted message said:

an insult to
humaan intelligence.

Quoted message said:

They do admit the mistakes?
Anth

Affirmative. I and others amongst the MHA faithful have admitted to being in
error and will continue to do so when necessary.

Its the only way to be intellectually honest, which separates them from the
"believers"

Quoted message said:

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...and I've watched them blindly believe each other also. (the debunkers)
So you are just as guilty.
Anth

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...and I've watched them blindly believe each other also. (the debunkers)
So you are just as guilty.
Anth

Just because we agree on the details of how the immune system works, and
that Ritalin is effective in the treatment of Attention Deficit Disorder,
and that Dave is a slimy MLM spammer who doesn't have even a seventh grade
understanding of biology or other sciences, doesn't mean we "blindly believe
each other." If Orac, probably the most authoritative poster here on cancer,
were to say that goats milk prevents bladder cancer, I, and a half a dozen
or so others, would dive for our keyboards to demand evidence. Most of the
alties would dive for their car keys to run out and buy some goats milk.

--Rich

Orac knows jack about cancer cures - he might know mainstream.
Why do you think he's here?
Anth

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...and I've watched them blindly believe each other also. (the

debunkers)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So you are just as guilty.
Anth

Just because we agree on the details of how the immune system works, and
that Ritalin is effective in the treatment of Attention Deficit Disorder,
and that Dave is a slimy MLM spammer who doesn't have even a seventh grade
understanding of biology or other sciences, doesn't mean we "blindly

believe

Quoted message said:

each other." If Orac, probably the most authoritative poster here on

cancer,

Quoted message said:

were to say that goats milk prevents bladder cancer, I, and a half a dozen
or so others, would dive for our keyboards to demand evidence. Most of the
alties would dive for their car keys to run out and buy some goats milk.

--Rich

One can prove a negative by deduction.
Anth

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...prove the conspiracy doesn't exist then?
Anth

How about proving that one exists? Don't you know that one can't prove a
negative? (That was a rhetorical question, we know that YOU know that

already)

Quoted message said:

Why not find a single bit of objective evidence for this global

conspiracy?

Quoted message said:

There must be tens of thousands, if not millions, of people in on "the

scheme"

Quoted message said:

if it were actually real.

Get a pay stub or an instruction manual and post it to

www.credulous&paranoid.com

Anth said:

One can prove a negative by deduction.
Anth

Please prove that dinosaurs no longer exist. Please prove that a
person cannot fly to the moon by flapping his/her arms. Prove them by
deduction.

Aloha,

Rich
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance.