What about Ullrich?

Quoted message said:

So if it can be proven that Armstrong did take EPO in 1999, then we can
probably assume he did it all along. Once a liar, always a liar.

But both the A and B sample must be tested.

Why in the world would you assume he's clean?

Quoted message said:

So if it can be proven that Armstrong did take EPO in 1999, then we can
probably assume he did it all along. Once a liar, always a liar.

So how does that change your view of Ullrich's career accomplishments
(assuming he is clean). Would that not make him the new record holder
for Tour victories?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...Once a liar, always a liar.

Ofcourse not, don't be ridiculous.

Why would you think this was anything but a French bash? The French have
never done anything with fairness or class. I remember back in 1987 when
I went to New Caledonia (a French Occupied Territory) to race. My team was
there two weeks prior to race day and we went to the French Cycling
Federation to get maps for the two race courses we would be racing. We had
no idea what so ever where they were as we had never been to New Caledonia.
We picked up our maps and headed out that day as we did every day there
after until race day. Yep, you guessed it. We were given maps that were
intentionally made up to take us and the other competing teams far from the
real course. Only the French teams from New Caledonia and Tahiti had the
real maps.

The evening prior to the TT all had to surrender bikes. French Teams had
their bikes delivered to them hours prior to race time the next morning.
The rest of us got our bikes as we stepped to the starting line, no warm-up
time allowed. French officials claimed the truck with our bikes got lost on
the road. Not surprising if the driver was given the map to the fictitious
course.

I wonder who has the real 1999 samples? And what a coincidence that no
more testing can be done, LOL. I am now, more than ever before, convinced
that Lance is clean..

That my friends is "How The French Play" and now Armstrong is getting
screwed just like we did.

Ken

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So if it can be proven that Armstrong did take EPO in 1999, then we can
probably assume he did it all along. Once a liar, always a liar.

So how does that change your view of Ullrich's career accomplishments
(assuming he is clean). Would that not make him the new record holder
for Tour victories?

IMKen a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Why would you think this was anything but a French bash? The French have
never done anything with fairness or class. I remember back in 1987 when
I went to New Caledonia (a French Occupied Territory) to race. My team was
there two weeks prior to race day and we went to the French Cycling
Federation to get maps for the two race courses we would be racing. We had
no idea what so ever where they were as we had never been to New Caledonia.
We picked up our maps and headed out that day as we did every day there
after until race day. Yep, you guessed it. We were given maps that were
intentionally made up to take us and the other competing teams far from the
real course. Only the French teams from New Caledonia and Tahiti had the
real maps.

The evening prior to the TT all had to surrender bikes. French Teams had
their bikes delivered to them hours prior to race time the next morning.
The rest of us got our bikes as we stepped to the starting line, no warm-up
time allowed. French officials claimed the truck with our bikes got loston
the road. Not surprising if the driver was given the map to the fictitious
course.

I wonder who has the real 1999 samples? And what a coincidence that no
more testing can be done, LOL. I am now, more than ever before, convinced
that Lance is clean..

That my friends is "How The French Play" and now Armstrong is getting
screwed just like we did.

It is actually how the French support their national team, and there
is similar discrimination against independent French riders. The best
example is Jeannie Longo, who was almost excluded from the 1992
Olympics
by the French federation. Her autobiography starts with her first
French track nationals in which the rules of the individual pursuit
were changed after she qualified 3rd or 4th (I forget) in order to
deny her a chance at winning the championship.

If the federation can do that to their most successful rider of all
time,
the rest is not as surprising.

-ilan

IMKen said:

Why would you think this was anything but a French bash? The French have
never done anything with fairness or class. I remember back in 1987 when
I went to New Caledonia (a French Occupied Territory) to race. My team was
there two weeks prior to race day and we went to the French Cycling
Federation to get maps for the two race courses we would be racing. We had
no idea what so ever where they were as we had never been to New Caledonia.
We picked up our maps and headed out that day as we did every day there
after until race day. Yep, you guessed it. We were given maps that were
intentionally made up to take us and the other competing teams far from the
real course. Only the French teams from New Caledonia and Tahiti had the
real maps.

The evening prior to the TT all had to surrender bikes.

Just be happy they didn't use the Helicopter(s) against you! ;-D

-jet

Quoted message said:

French Teams had
their bikes delivered to them hours prior to race time the next morning.
The rest of us got our bikes as we stepped to the starting line, no warm-up
time allowed. French officials claimed the truck with our bikes got lost on
the road. Not surprising if the driver was given the map to the fictitious
course.

I wonder who has the real 1999 samples? And what a coincidence that no
more testing can be done, LOL. I am now, more than ever before, convinced
that Lance is clean..

That my friends is "How The French Play" and now Armstrong is getting
screwed just like we did.

Ken

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So if it can be proven that Armstrong did take EPO in 1999, then we can
probably assume he did it all along. Once a liar, always a liar.

So how does that change your view of Ullrich's career accomplishments
(assuming he is clean). Would that not make him the new record holder
for Tour victories?

Jet said:

Just be happy they didn't use the Helicopter(s) against you! ;-D

-jet

Thought that was the Italians in the Giro.

"IMKen" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why would you think this was anything but a French bash? The French have
never done anything with fairness or class.

Is the name Richard Virenque familiar to you ?
This (French) guy was ridiculed by "A l'insu de mon plein gré" during more
than one year by the French media.
Are the french media anti-French ?

<Montesquiou> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"IMKen" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why would you think this was anything but a French bash? The French have
never done anything with fairness or class.

Is the name Richard Virenque familiar to you ?
This (French) guy was ridiculed by "A l'insu de mon plein gré" during more
than one year by the French media.
Are the french media anti-French ?

Never mind common sense. Bigotry and prejudice are much more in fashion
here.

That's actually a very interesting question. The l'Equipe article had a
section with reactions from riders, directors and cycling management
officials, and Ullrich's response was noteworthy. Here is my
translation:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was having my breakfast at the hotel at the time when our team press
person told us about the l'Equipe article. The Gerolsteiner team was
there and they were just as surprised as us. The news went through the
room like a bullet on Tuesday morning. During the stage [of the Tour of
Germany] we all talked about it, but for the moment we simply don't
have enough precise infomration and I don't want to come to a rushed
conclusion. But, it's clear that I would be very disappointed if the
information in the article was confirmed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Keep in mind that Velo Magazine did a photospread with pro riders
holding the chalkboard from the Tour with personal messages written to
Lance. Ullrich's message to Lance was "All the best and good luck in
life after cycling. I'll miss you."

It sounds like Ullrich tone, more than anything, was disappointment. If
Ullrich was doping then I wouldn't have expected that kind of tone in
his voice. It would have expected a reaction like known doper Philippe
Gaumont, who pretty much said, "OK, so what? EPO was free flowing at
the time. i'd be surprised, though, if he took it between 2001 and
2005. This is old. Get over it."

It sounds more like the Bush Regime.

Curtis L. Russell said:

Jet said:

Just be happy they didn't use the Helicopter(s) against you! ;-D

-jet

Thought that was the Italians in the Giro.

<nods> Still a humorous allusion that even the illusion of fair practices,
uh, still eluded -them-, no? ;-)

-jet

Jet said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

Jet said:

Just be happy they didn't use the Helicopter(s) against you! ;-D

-jet

Thought that was the Italians in the Giro.

<nods> Still a humorous allusion that even the illusion of fair practices,
uh, still eluded -them-, no? ;-)

-jet

That pretty much sums it up.

Now me, I was under the illusion that when the plumber was to show up
today, it meant sometime during the day and perhaps even, well, today.
I'm trying to come up with a good allusion to his parentage, but it's
eluding me. At least the Scotties are happy - they're busy rearranging
the backyard instead of their normal project, rearranging the front
room.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Montesquiou a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Is the name Richard Virenque familiar to you ?
This (French) guy was ridiculed by "A l'insu de mon plein gré" during more
than one year by the French media.
Are the french media anti-French ?

But this is by the TV show which ridicules everyone. In the meantime,
Virenque was allowed to ride and win the mountain jersey as well
as a stage in the Tour. He was finally suspended, but his return
victory in
Paris-Tour awas seen as an emotional "in your face" to all his critics.
Minister of sports Lamour was in the follow vehicle when Virenque won
on the Ventoux, and he applauded his victory.
Now, he is going on bike rides with minister of the interior (that is,
minister of police) Nicolas Sarkozy, who compares his difficulties
with those of Virenque. This year he was doing colour commentary for
French Eurosport.

Not exactly the picture of the disgraced athlete.

-ilan

Quoted message said:

Once a liar, always a liar.

Don't be so hard on yourself and everyone else. Everyone's lied at some
point in their life. That doen't mean human beings are incapable of honesty.

I don't buy the A & B sample argument in this case. Six of the "B" samples
tested positive. They should be proof enough, even in the scumbag way it was
uncovered and leaked to the press.

gym.gravity said:

Quoted message said:

So if it can be proven that Armstrong did take EPO in 1999, then we can
probably assume he did it all along. Once a liar, always a liar.

But both the A and B sample must be tested.

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Montesquiou a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Is the name Richard Virenque familiar to you ?
This (French) guy was ridiculed by "A l'insu de mon plein gré" during more
than one year by the French media.
Are the french media anti-French ?

But this is by the TV show which ridicules everyone. In the meantime,
Virenque was allowed to ride and win the mountain jersey as well
as a stage in the Tour. He was finally suspended, but his return
victory in
Paris-Tour awas seen as an emotional "in your face" to all his critics.
Minister of sports Lamour was in the follow vehicle when Virenque won
on the Ventoux, and he applauded his victory.
Now, he is going on bike rides with minister of the interior (that is,
minister of police) Nicolas Sarkozy, who compares his difficulties
with those of Virenque. This year he was doing colour commentary for
French Eurosport.

Not exactly the picture of the disgraced athlete.

-ilan

(Sorry for my English)
1 - Lance Armstrong to be or not to be popular is not the point of the
discussion, nor Virenque to be or not to be popular.

The fact that last week Virenque were biking with Sarkozi is not the point
of the discussion, nor Lance to be biking with President Bush..

2 - It is important to remember the Festina affair, a full Franco French
investigation.

First, since we are talking on the L'Equipe : " Une voiture Festina bourrée
d'EPO ! " was his manchette on July 11 1998.

I would like to remember that Virenque and the full Festina time ( mainly
French ) were baned this year (1998)

Imagine the outrage if the French had done the with Lance, the way they did
with Virenque.

Laurent Brochard, Christophe Moreau et Didier Rous (Pascal Hervé by
solidarity) were baned until may 1.

Richard Virenque, even with his " I never did it " was mis en examen pour "
complicité de facilitation, d'incitation à usage et administration de
produits dopants ", et, pour " complicité d'importation, de détention, de
cession, d'offre, d'acquisition de substances vénéneuses, complicité de
circulation, de détention irrégulière et d'importation en contrebande de
marchandises prohibées ".

Remember that Virenque was also baned of the 1999 TDF.

Joel Charibon (French of the Française des jeux) Jail under conditional 5
month + fine 30 000 F

Jean-Marie Dalibot (French) Jail under conditional 5 month + Fine 30 000 F

Opposit what it is said here, the French are not so soft with the French in
the TDF

"So if it can be proven that Armstrong did take EPO in 1999, then we
can probably assume he did it all along."

So you're ignoring the fact that the EPO test has been around since
2001 basically unchanged? So we can throw OUT all of the previous
testing because one set of tests that can't be verified or reproduced
supposedly showed positive. Oh, yeah, and at a time when the test
wasn't available apparently only Lance and a few others tested
positive.

Ain't it nice that people are willing to believe an outrageous story
long before they're willing to question it?

"Six of the "B" samples tested positive."

Is that so? Prove it.