What a great TdF

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement. 5th
win in a row and he really had to work hard for it. A true champion and a great sportsman. Lots of
pressure but he still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's comeback was
instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully, he'll show up in even better shape next year
to make it a three-giants battle against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came, because they effectively put
a lid on riders going all out. The rains may in fact have been a break for Armstrong, because
the conditions would not permit the complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to
win the day.

Even though I'm an Armstrong fan, I really wanted to see Ullrich put in a great race today.

M.

Michael said:

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement.
5th win in a row and he really had to work hard for it. A true champion and a great sportsman.
Lots of pressure but he still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's
comeback was instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully, he'll show up in even better
shape next year to make it a three-giants battle against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came, because they effectively put
a lid on riders going all out. The rains may in fact have been a break for Armstrong, because
the conditions would not permit the complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to
win the day.

Conditions were the same for both.Had it been colder last week, we wouldn't have seen Ullrich win by
1'36 but probably by less than a minute.

Gerrit

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael said:

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement.
5th win in a row and he really had to work hard for it. A true champion and a great sportsman.
Lots of pressure but he still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's
comeback was instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully, he'll show up in even better
shape next year to make it a three-giants battle against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came, because they effectively put a
lid on riders going all out. The rains may in fact have been a break for Armstrong, because the
conditions would not permit the complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to win
the day.

Conditions were the same for both.Had it been colder last week, we wouldn't have seen Ullrich win
by 1'36 but probably by less than a minute.

Gerrit

Of course they were the same, but it was like putting lead shoes on basketball teams. It nullfies
much of the effect of a team with superior athletics. I still think Armstrong would have won on a
fast track, but I would have preferred seeing a great race, not one filled with crashes.

M.

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement.
5th win in a row and he really had to work hard for it. A true champion and a great sportsman.
Lots of pressure but he still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's
comeback was instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully, he'll show up in even better
shape next year to make it a three-giants battle against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came, because they effectively put a
lid on riders going all out. The rains may in fact have been a break for Armstrong, because the
conditions would not permit the complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to win
the day.

That's faulty - The turns didn't come until the last 10k. Up till then it was straight and flat and
JAN was not dominant.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement.
5th win in a row and he really had to work

hard

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for it. A true champion and a great sportsman. Lots of pressure but he still prevailed. Well
deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's comeback was instrumental in making this a
great tour. Hopefully,

he'll

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

show up in even better shape next year to make it a three-giants

battle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came,

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they effectively put a lid on riders going all out. The rains may in

fact

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have been a break for Armstrong, because the conditions would not permit the complete thrashing
of the course that we saw from LeMond to win the day.

That's faulty - The turns didn't come until the last 10k. Up till then it was straight and flat
and JAN was not dominant.

Not quite so faulty. At Cap Decouverte, Ullrich and Armstrong had exactly the same time at the first
checkpoint, just as they did today at Nantes. In Cap Decouverte, Ullrich turned on the jets and put
a minute and a half on Armstrong in the latter half of the race.

That's his modus operandi, but the weather did not permit a full out race for him. The point is well
made, though, that the race is not always just about speed, it is also about bike handling, tactics,
&c. For instance, Ullrich sat in his hotel looking at the course on videotape rather than going out
and having a look. That fact alone actually says a lot about Ullrich and his dedication.

At first I thought Armstrong would have won the race anyway, but the more I think about it the more
I can't help but think the weather hampered Ullrich from putting a little time on Armstrong.

M.

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came,

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they effectively put a lid on riders going all out. The rains may in

fact

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have been a break for Armstrong, because the conditions would not permit

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to win the day.

That's faulty - The turns didn't come until the last 10k. Up till then

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was straight and flat and JAN was not dominant.

Not quite so faulty. At Cap Decouverte, Ullrich and Armstrong had exactly the same time at the
first checkpoint, just as they did today at Nantes. In Cap Decouverte, Ullrich turned on the jets
and put a minute and a half on Armstrong in the latter half of the race.

That's his modus operandi, but the weather did not permit a full out race for him. The point is
well made, though, that the race is not always just about speed,

it

Quoted message said:

is also about bike handling, tactics, &c. For instance, Ullrich sat in his hotel looking at

the

Quoted message said:

course on videotape rather than going out and having a look. That fact alone actually says a

lot

Quoted message said:

about Ullrich and his dedication.

At first I thought Armstrong would have won the race anyway, but the more

I

Quoted message said:

think about it the more I can't help but think the weather hampered Ullrich from putting

a

Quoted message said:

little time on Armstrong.

Dumbass -

JAN was not going to win the TdF today, unless LANCE crashed. Physically he was not 1:05 better.

Michael said:

Quoted message said:

That's faulty - The turns didn't come until the last 10k. Up till then it was straight and flat
and JAN was not dominant.

Not quite so faulty. At Cap Decouverte, Ullrich and Armstrong had exactly the same time at the
first checkpoint, just as they did today at Nantes. In Cap Decouverte, Ullrich turned on the jets
and put a minute and a half on Armstrong in the latter half of the race.

That's his modus operandi, but the weather did not permit a full out race for him.

I knew after the first 15K time check that Lance had it in the bag, if he didn't crash.

It is not in his "modus operandi" to lose more than 10 lbs of body weight in a 50k TT like he did at
Cap Decouverte. That was the result of a week of riding at record breaking 90 degree+(f)
temperatures, capped by over 100 degrees in the TT, combined with inadequate hydration. That was
clearly *the* contributing factor why Jan was able to pick up that much time over the last 35K. And
of course, the effects of that dehydration became more and more pronounced as that TT went on.

This fluid loss is conveniently ignored by Jan's sympathizers when they discuss the implications of
that stage. The lingering effects of the loss cost LA more time to Jan in the next mountain stage,
hut his linear recovery over the next few days was plain to see and culminated in Luz.

This is not to take anything away from Jan's victory at Cap Decouverte. He won under very adverse
conditions that were shared by all. But to take away from that particular TT victory the notion that
"Jan is now
1:30 faster on a 50K TT than Lance" was IMO, fanciful wishful thinking. That Armstrong "only" lost
about 1:30 in that TT, considering his condition, was in fact remarkable. There was no way that
that was going to happen again after he recovered in anything like normal temperatures.

That's why I knew after the first 15K time check that Lance had it in the bag. (The first 15k, I
might add, were not all that adversely effected by the rain) There was no way Jan was going to pick
up close to a minute over 35K on Lance in normal temperatures. It could be close but not decisive
for either of them.

Zeno

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came,

because

Quoted message said:

> they effectively put a lid on riders going all out. The rains may in

fact

Quoted message said:

> have been a break for Armstrong, because the conditions would not permit

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to win the day.

That's faulty - The turns didn't come until the last 10k. Up till then

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was straight and flat and JAN was not dominant.

Not quite so faulty. At Cap Decouverte, Ullrich and Armstrong had

exactly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the same time at the first checkpoint, just as they did today at Nantes. In Cap Decouverte,
Ullrich turned on the jets and put a minute and a half on Armstrong in the

latter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

half of the race.

That's his modus operandi, but the weather did not permit a full out

race

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for him. The point is well made, though, that the race is not always just about

speed,

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

is also about bike handling, tactics, &c. For instance, Ullrich sat in his hotel looking at

the

Quoted message said:

course on videotape rather than going out and having a look. That fact alone actually says a

lot

Quoted message said:

about Ullrich and his dedication.

At first I thought Armstrong would have won the race anyway, but the

more

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

think about it the more I can't help but think the weather hampered Ullrich from

putting

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

little time on Armstrong.

Dumbass -

JAN was not going to win the TdF today, unless LANCE crashed. Physically

he

Quoted message said:

was not 1:05 better.

Einstein:

Read the post above and see if you can make out the words "a little time" in one sitting.

M.

"zeno" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael said:

Quoted message said:

That's faulty - The turns didn't come until the last 10k. Up till then it was straight and
flat and JAN was not dominant.

Not quite so faulty. At Cap Decouverte, Ullrich and Armstrong had exactly the same time at the
first checkpoint, just as they did today at Nantes. In Cap Decouverte, Ullrich turned on the
jets and put a minute and a half on Armstrong in the latter half of the race.

That's his modus operandi, but the weather did not permit a full out race for him.

I knew after the first 15K time check that Lance had it in the bag, if he didn't crash.

It is not in his "modus operandi" to lose more than 10 lbs of body weight in a 50k TT like he did
at Cap Decouverte. That was the result of a week of riding at record breaking 90 degree+(f)
temperatures, capped by over 100 degrees in the TT, combined with inadequate hydration. That was
clearly *the* contributing factor why Jan was able to pick up that much time over the last 35K.
And of course, the effects of that dehydration became more and more pronounced as that TT went on.

This fluid loss is conveniently ignored by Jan's sympathizers when they discuss the implications
of that stage. The lingering effects of the loss cost LA more time to Jan in the next mountain
stage, hut his linear recovery over the next few days was plain to see and culminated in Luz.

This is not to take anything away from Jan's victory at Cap Decouverte. He won under very adverse
conditions that were shared by all. But to take away from that particular TT victory the notion
that "Jan is now
1:30 faster on a 50K TT than Lance" was IMO, fanciful wishful thinking. That Armstrong "only" lost
about 1:30 in that TT, considering his condition, was in fact remarkable. There was no way that
that was going to happen again after he recovered in anything like normal temperatures.

That's why I knew after the first 15K time check that Lance had it in the bag. (The first 15k, I
might add, were not all that adversely effected by the rain) There was no way Jan was going to
pick up close to a minute over 35K on Lance in normal temperatures. It could be close but not
decisive for either of them.

Zeno

I don't disagree with anything you are saying here. I don't think Ullrich would have won, but I did
not think it was a great race because the rain conditions kept the times down.

After reading your previous post about the strength needed to power out of slow, wet corners, and
the fact that the rains did not appear to keep the times down that much, I can see how people would
see this as an epic race.

It was a race where I was on the edge of my seat, not because I was counting seconds, but because I
was fearful of a crash by Armstrong. I suppose whether one considers these kinds of races "great" is
a matter of personal disposition.

M.

"zeno" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's why I knew after the first 15K time check that Lance had it in the bag. (The first 15k, I
might add, were not all that adversely effected by the rain) There was no way Jan was going to
pick up close to a minute over 35K on Lance in normal temperatures. It could be close but not
decisive for either of them.

They should have just cancelled the rest of the stage and worked out the winning times based on the
splits at the first kilometre, and only told the riders afterwards :-)

Jeff

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement. 5th
win in a row and he really had to work hard for it. A true champion and a great sportsman. Lots of
pressure but he still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's comeback was
instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully, he'll show up in even better shape next year
to make it a three-giants battle against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

Well Gerrit I guess I have to change my opinion of you.

You are a gentleman!

Dashii

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement.
5th win in a row and he really had to work hard for it. A true champion and a great sportsman.
Lots of pressure but he still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's
comeback was instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully, he'll show up in even better
shape next year to make it a three-giants battle against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came, because they effectively put a
lid on riders going all out. The rains may in fact have been a break for Armstrong, because the
conditions would not permit the complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to win
the day.

Even though I'm an Armstrong fan, I really wanted to see Ullrich put in a great race today.

And that's what you did see, he went for it and unfortunately crashed while letting it all hang out!

Great effort Jan.

Dashii

Quoted message said:

M.

Jeff Jones said:

They should have just cancelled the rest of the stage and worked out the winning times based on the
splits at the first kilometre, and only told the riders afterwards :-)

YEAH! Der Kaiser wins by 3:49.

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

JAN was not going to win the TdF today, unless LANCE crashed. Physically

he

Quoted message said:

was not 1:05 better.

Einstein:

Read the post above and see if you can make out the words "a little time"

in

Quoted message said:

one sitting.

Dumbass -

So what? JAN was not going to win the TdF today.

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to

LA.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

An amazing achievement. 5th win in a row and he really had to work

hard

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for it. A true champion and a great sportsman. Lots of pressure

but he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan,

who's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

comeback was instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully,

he'll

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

show up in even better shape next year to make it a three-giants

battle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came,

because

Quoted message said:

they effectively put a lid on riders going all out. The rains may in

fact

Quoted message said:

have been a break for Armstrong, because the conditions would not

permit

Quoted message said:

the complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to win

the

Quoted message said:

day.

Even though I'm an Armstrong fan, I really wanted to see Ullrich put

in a

Quoted message said:

great race today.

With a screaming tailwind everyone was spun out over most of the course. There was no way that Jan
could have taken any significant time out of Lance even if Lance was still weak as in the first
two weeks.

Millar won because he was the luckiest person on the course and not so much because he was the
fastest. Jan was going for all he was worth and Lance took time out of him until he realized that
there was too much to lose if he fell.

Next year Lance will be back for the sixth win and I think that Jan will not be able to match a
well, motivated Lance again. Moreover, a Tyler Hamilton that can climb out of the saddle is
definitely someone that should worry hell out of Jan.

Michael said:

"Gerrit Stolte" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The most exciting *Grand boucle* since 1989. Kudos and hats off to LA. An amazing achievement. 5th
win in a row and he really had to work hard for it. A true champion and a great sportsman. Lots of
pressure but he still prevailed. Well deserved win Chapeau! Kudos also to Jan, who's comeback was
instrumental in making this a great tour. Hopefully, he'll show up in even better shape next year
to make it a three-giants battle against LA and Beloki. Can't wait.

I don't agree. It was extrememly unfortunate that the rains came, because they effectively put a
lid on riders going all out. The rains may in fact have been a break for Armstrong, because the
conditions would not permit the complete thrashing of the course that we saw from LeMond to win
the day.

Even though I'm an Armstrong fan, I really wanted to see Ullrich put in a great race today.

M.

Yep, this one was anticlimactic. Tense until Ullrich slid out, then instantly became same-old.
Without the rain, both LANCE and Jan would have broken the old TT record. Quite a few others would
have too. That would have been par for the 2003 Tour.

I'll go out on a limb and say LANCE would have won without the rain. No one will ever know.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

"zeno" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Riding well in the rain takes great athletic skill. For example, it takes superior power to
accelerate quickly out of a slick corner

that

Quoted message said:

you had to almost stop for, rather than being able to just carry

speed

Quoted message said:

through a dry one.

On a dry course without a blazing tailwind Tyler would be on the podium tomorrow. That tailwind
brought Vinokirov home with time to spare.

AMG said:

Quoted message said:

Of course they were the same, but it was like putting lead shoes on basketball teams. It nullfies
much of the effect of a team with superior athletics. I still think Armstrong would have won on a
fast track, but I would have preferred seeing a great race, not one filled with crashes.

Certainly one does not want to see the outcome of a race determined primarily by crashes, but the
stage today really underlined that fact that it's not just about speed, but also about judgment --
about knowing when to push and when to be cautious. This calculus also operates when it doesn't
rain, of course, but that fact that the track was especially treacherous today brings it to the
foreground. The NY Times live report had this, after Ullrich finished but before Armstrong's did::
"... [Ullrich's] chances in this year's race are all but over if Armstrong can just stay on his
bike." Treacherous indeed.

Jan took a too-aggressive line around that roundabout. Slop tends to stay at the edges of the road,
while the driving "groove" is usually pretty clean. He may have been able to ride full-speed if he
were one foot to the left of the line he took. (Though LANCE rode that exact line and did so very
gingerly.)

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Tom Kunich said:

Millar won because he was the luckiest person on the course and not so much because he was
the fastest.

He crashed once just like Ullrich, and still won. There may have been a little more wind earlier
in the day.