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What a difference 3-4mm can make

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Road Cycling
Published
9 April 2004
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12 April 2004
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David Kerber
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  1. Since I started getting back outside this spring, my harder
    or longer rides have been resulting in a bit of soreness in
    my right knee. Nothing crippling, just a mild ache at the
    top edge of the kneecap which went away in a day or two. I
    had been meaning to adjust my saddle height upward to see
    what it would do, but in my eagerness to get out on the
    road, I kept forgetting before leaving on my rides.

    Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache
    started up shortly before I got to my turnaround point (6
    miles out). So I stopped there and raised the saddle a
    little. I didn't measure it, but it looks like 3 or 4 mm.
    Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back home, the ache was
    completely gone, and this morning there's no trace of it.!

    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can
    make; kind of like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I
    mentioned in another thread.

    BTW, this was one of my faster rides so far: averaged 16.9
    mph for 12 miles. The winter hours spent on the trainer are
    really paying off!

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
    the newsgroups if possible).

  2. Quoted message said:

    Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache
    started up shortly before I got to my turnaround point
    (6 miles out). So I stopped there and raised the saddle
    a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks like 3 or 4
    mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back >home, the
    ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no
    trace of it.!

    It is amazing. I have noticed that extremely small
    differences in seat height can affect comfort profoundly.
    You wouldn't think that the effect would be so great just
    looking at a bike now would you?

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache
    started up shortly before I got to my turnaround point
    (6 miles out). So I stopped there and raised the saddle
    a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks like 3 or 4
    mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back >home, the
    ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no
    trace of it.!

    It is amazing. I have noticed that extremely small
    differences in seat height can affect comfort profoundly.
    You wouldn't think that the effect would be so great just
    looking at a bike now would you?

    Nope. I had seen articles about pro's saying they could feel
    the difference when moving their seat around by only a small
    number of millimeters, and never really believed it, or
    figured it would only be noticable to people who spent hours
    every day on their bikes. I discovered that I was very wrong
    on that; I usually only get out for about 3 or 4 hours per
    *week*, but I could feel the difference pedaling as soon as
    I got back on the road after that adjustment.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
    the newsgroups if possible).

  4. I did the same thing once while riding across the country,
    with 100 miles per day. Since it was so long ago I'm not
    sure what was sore but I think it was my knee. And halfway
    through a 120 mile day in Colorado I raised my seat about 5
    mm, and by the end of the day the pain was gone!

    Bruce

    Quoted message said:

    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can
    make; kind of like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I
    mentioned in another thread.

  5. "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can
    make; kind of like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I
    mentioned in another thread.


    David,

    Thanks for the post. Not only did it make me reconsider my
    unwillingness to tilt my saddle forward to relieve "numb
    nuts", it's got me embarked on a full scale, blissfully
    obsessive, micro-adjustment program. Until now, three things
    got in the way of this:

    1) (Thank God for Usenet anonymity) I really wasn't sure how
    to adjust the bloody saddle (Still a noob, after all). I
    have this clasp atop the seat post, with hex nuts fore
    and aft. It took a trip to the LBS today to learn that to
    tilt the saddle forward, I loosen the aft nut--say 1/4
    turn--then tighten the fore one an equal amount. (To
    those who suddenly feel blessed with a towering
    intellect, you're welcome.)
    2) I didn't really believe that a few millimeters could make
    a difference. (And they may not, in my case. But I'm
    gonna give it a shot, at least.) As I said, you've
    convinced my otherwise.
    3) I was really starting to warm to the idea of shopping for
    a 'bent (and may still do so. What the hell. Need to grow
    a beard, though ;-) )

    I've established a baseline tilt thusly:

    - Place the bike on level ground
    - Place a flat, straight board on the saddle (I used a 1-
    foot length of 2x6. Could've run it through a planer, I
    suppose, except I don't own one.)
    - Place a level on the board with the level's bubble
    perpendicular to the midpoint of the seat post diameter.
    - Set an initial forward tilt whereby the bubble in the
    level exactly bisects the aft vertical line in the
    LevelLiquidFilledCylinderThing. This translates, more or
    less, to the saddle's nose tip being 3-4 millimeters
    below level.

    In about 15 mintues I'll hit the road.

    Peter

    Anti-spam =
    a) Remove NS_
    b) Change 3 zeroes to alpha O's

  6. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments
    can make; kind of like the 1/4 turn seat tilt
    adjustments I mentioned in another thread.


    David,

    Thanks for the post. Not only did it make me reconsider my
    unwillingness to tilt my saddle forward to relieve "numb
    nuts", it's got me embarked on a

    How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of concavity
    in it. and I set it up so that the front end is as level as
    I can get it, which leaves the back tilted up just slightly.

    Quoted message said:

    full scale, blissfully obsessive, micro-adjustment
    program. Until now, three things got in the way of this:

    1) (Thank God for Usenet anonymity) I really wasn't sure
    how to adjust the bloody saddle (Still a noob, after
    all). I have this clasp atop the seat post, with hex
    nuts fore and aft. It took a trip to the LBS today to
    learn that to tilt the saddle forward, I loosen the aft
    nut--say 1/4 turn--then tighten the fore one an equal
    amount. (To those who suddenly feel blessed with a
    towering intellect, you're welcome.)
    2) I didn't really believe that a few millimeters could
    make a difference. (And they may not, in my case. But
    I'm gonna give it a shot, at least.) As I said, you've
    convinced my otherwise.

    3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting
    the height, remember), but you won't know until you try
    it. Don't forget to write down your changes as you go, in
    case you have to start mixing them up, like raising the
    saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at the
    same time.

    Quoted message said:

    3) I was really starting to warm to the idea of shopping
    for a 'bent (and may still do so. What the hell. Need
    to grow a beard, though ;-) )

    I've established a baseline tilt thusly:

    - Place the bike on level ground
    - Place a flat, straight board on the saddle (I used a 1-
    foot length of 2x6. Could've run it through a planer, I
    suppose, except I don't own one.)
    - Place a level on the board with the level's bubble
    perpendicular to the midpoint of the seat post diameter.
    - Set an initial forward tilt whereby the bubble in the
    level exactly bisects the aft vertical line in the
    LevelLiquidFilledCylinderThing. This translates, more or
    less, to the saddle's nose tip being 3-4 millimeters
    below level.

    In about 15 mintues I'll hit the road.

    Let us know how it goes!

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return
    address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

  7. David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of
    concavity in it. and I set it up so that the front end is
    as level as I can get it, which leaves the back tilted up
    just slightly.


    That may also be the case with mine (Koobi Enduro PRS).
    There's a photo at

    howdetl.cfm?&DID=6&User_ID=274909&st=4509&st2=38065493&st3=-
    72920763&Product_ID=35&CATID=3

    but it isn't from an angle that tells whether the back is a
    hair higher.

    Quoted message said:


    3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting
    the height, remember), but you won't know until you try
    it. Don't forget to write down your changes as you go, in
    case you have to start mixing them up, like raising the
    saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at the
    same time.


    The baseline I described in my earlier post (i.e., having
    the bubble in the level bisect the aft vertical line in the
    glass cylinder) was an LBS suggestion. Since I calculated
    the tilt in millimeters by lifting the level until the
    bubble was dead center in the cylinder, my guess is highly
    unreliable, given normal unsteadiness of hand. In any case
    it was a place to start. And yes, tonite's project is to set
    up Saddle Positioning Spreadsheet.xls with too many columns
    to mention.

    Quoted message said:


    Let us know how it goes!


    Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows,
    because it really may make or break me riding an upright
    bicycle. I rode a leisurely 12 miles at 13 mph (so just
    short of 1 hour)--intentionally slower than my normal ~15mph
    for this route.

    [ Question: Might lower cadence and absence of hills skew
    results, or is it a non-issue?]

    I felt rather more pressure on my hands, which was to be
    expected, but no inordinate discomfort--certainly no
    outright pain or numbness in the upper body. Certainly
    didn't feel like I was sliding forward on the saddle. _Toe_
    numbness, which heretofore had always crept up on me 30-45
    minutes into a ride, was 90 percent eliminated. EXCELLENT!

    As for penile numbness, well, it went like this. Right at
    the outset, I realized that, in addition to saddle tilt,
    there was a second issue needing attention--the position of
    my penis when I ride. Ordinarily, when in non-biking mode,
    my penis rides left of center. On the bike, I've been
    adopting this position for two reasons: 1) because it feels
    natural, and 2) because following some surgery last year, I
    had to be catheterized. (Guys, avoid this if possible--
    especially if the nurse seems testy.) As a result, I've had
    episodes of what I'd call urethral pain down the length of
    my penis. This was exacerbated when I rode a bicycle with my
    penis dead center. So I slung it off to the left. About 45
    minutes into the ride, I noticed F**K, I'm completely numb!
    Little Petie, speak to me! Speak to me! I needed no further
    prompting to reposition the seemingly lifeless member right
    into the full-length, now highly appreciated Koobi saddle
    cutout. Dork that I am, I didn't pay attention to the single
    huge difference between the Koobi and my old Specialized
    Milano (aside from firmness)---on the Milano the cutout went
    from the back of the saddle to about midpoint, then just
    bloody ended (so no cutout, really, for my penis). The
    Koobi, OTOH, gives me cutout right where I need it, I think.
    More experimentation is definitely necessary.

    [Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the
    casual observer, but I have to ask: Do you ride with your
    penis dead center, or do you dogleg left/right?]

    As for butt pain, no problem. And Little Petie is much
    improved, if not 100 percent, but a more rigorous test of
    function [ :-) is required.

    As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should
    repost in new thread to draw a bit more attention?

    --
    Peter

    Anti-spam =
    a) Remove NS_
    b) Change 3 zeroes to alpha O's

  8. Quoted message said:

    As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should
    repost in new thread to draw a bit more attention?

    Let your package hang as it will, there is no specific
    advice availabe on this topic except don't sit on it.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY
    MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------ __________306.350.357.38-

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden]__________

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of
    concavity in it. and I set it up so that the front end
    is as level as I can get it, which leaves the back
    tilted up just slightly.


    That may also be the case with mine (Koobi Enduro PRS).
    There's a photo at

    wdetl.cfm?&DID=6&User_ID=274909&st=4509&st2=38065493&st3=-
    72920763&Product_ID=35&CATID=3

    but it isn't from an angle that tells whether the back is
    a hair higher.

    Quoted message said:


    3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting
    the height, remember), but you won't know until you try
    it. Don't forget to write down your changes as you go,
    in case you have to start mixing them up, like raising
    the saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all
    at the same time.


    The baseline I described in my earlier post (i.e., having
    the bubble in the level bisect the aft vertical line in
    the glass cylinder) was an LBS suggestion. Since I
    calculated the tilt in millimeters by lifting the level
    until the bubble was dead center in the cylinder, my guess
    is highly unreliable, given normal unsteadiness of hand.
    In any case it was a place to start. And yes, tonite's
    project is to set up Saddle Positioning Spreadsheet.xls
    with too many columns to mention.

    Quoted message said:


    Let us know how it goes!


    Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows,
    because it really may make or break me riding an upright
    bicycle. I rode a leisurely 12 miles at 13 mph (so just
    short of 1 hour)--intentionally slower than my normal
    ~15mph for this route.

    [ Question: Might lower cadence and absence of hills skew
    results, or is it a non-issue?]

    It might, because an easier pace would probably have less
    pressure on the pedals, leaving more on your saddle
    and/or hands.

    Quoted message said:

    I felt rather more pressure on my hands, which was to be
    expected, but no inordinate discomfort--certainly no
    outright pain or numbness in the upper body. Certainly
    didn't feel like I was sliding forward on the saddle.

    If it didn't feel that way when taking it easy, it almost
    certainly won't when you're pushing harder.

    Quoted message said:

    _Toe_ numbness, which heretofore had always crept up on me
    30-45 minutes into a ride, was 90 percent eliminated.
    EXCELLENT!

    As for penile numbness, well, it went like this. Right at
    the outset, I

    ...

    I never thought about it, and just things fall where they
    may, so to speak <GG>.

    Quoted message said:

    As for butt pain, no problem. And Little Petie is much
    improved, if not 100 percent, but a more rigorous test of
    function [ :-) is required.

    As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should
    repost in new thread to draw a bit more attention?

    Are you sure you want more attention to this issue <Grin>?

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return
    address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

  10. "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    Are you sure you want more attention to this issue <Grin>?


    Good point. ;-)

    Time to stop asking questions and simply believe the
    evidence of my senses.

    --
    Peter

    Anti-spam =
    a) Remove NS_
    b) Replace 3 zeroes with alpha O's

  11. On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 02:17:26 GMT, "xkred27" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    [Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the
    casual observer, but I have to ask: Do you ride with your
    penis dead center, or do you dogleg left/right?]

    Try dead center, pointing up. Bicycle shorts (or briefs if
    plain clothes) may help hold it in that position. That may
    keep it from contacting the saddle, regardless of cutouts.
    --
    Rick Onanian

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    xkred27 said:

    [Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the
    casual observer, but I have to ask: Do you ride with your
    penis dead center, or do you dogleg left/right?]

    Try dead center, pointing up. Bicycle shorts (or briefs if
    plain clothes) may help hold it in that position. That may
    keep it from contacting the saddle, regardless of cutouts.

    The problem is with the nerves and blood vessels at the base
    pressing on the saddle.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
    the newsgroups if possible).

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