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What a difference 3-4mm can make

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Road Cycling
Published
9 April 2004
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12 April 2004
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David Kerber
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  1. Since I started getting back outside this spring, my harder or longer
    rides have been resulting in a bit of soreness in my right knee.
    Nothing crippling, just a mild ache at the top edge of the kneecap which
    went away in a day or two. I had been meaning to adjust my saddle
    height upward to see what it would do, but in my eagerness to get out on
    the road, I kept forgetting before leaving on my rides.

    Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache started up
    shortly before I got to my turnaround point (6 miles out). So I stopped
    there and raised the saddle a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks
    like 3 or 4 mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back home, the
    ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no trace of it.!

    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
    like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.

    BTW, this was one of my faster rides so far: averaged 16.9 mph for 12
    miles. The winter hours spent on the trainer are really paying off!

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
    newsgroups if possible).

  2. Quoted message said:

    Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache started up
    shortly before I got to my turnaround point (6 miles out). So I stopped
    there and raised the saddle a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks
    like 3 or 4 mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back >home, the
    ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no trace of it.!

    It is amazing. I have noticed that extremely small differences in seat height
    can affect comfort profoundly. You wouldn't think that the effect would be so
    great just looking at a bike now would you?

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache started up
    shortly before I got to my turnaround point (6 miles out). So I stopped
    there and raised the saddle a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks
    like 3 or 4 mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back >home, the
    ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no trace of it.!

    It is amazing. I have noticed that extremely small differences in seat height
    can affect comfort profoundly. You wouldn't think that the effect would be so
    great just looking at a bike now would you?

    Nope. I had seen articles about pro's saying they could feel the
    difference when moving their seat around by only a small number of
    millimeters, and never really believed it, or figured it would only be
    noticable to people who spent hours every day on their bikes. I
    discovered that I was very wrong on that; I usually only get out for
    about 3 or 4 hours per *week*, but I could feel the difference pedaling
    as soon as I got back on the road after that adjustment.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
    newsgroups if possible).

  4. I did the same thing once while riding across the country, with 100 miles
    per day. Since it was so long ago I'm not sure what was sore but I think it
    was my knee. And halfway through a 120 mile day in Colorado I raised my
    seat about 5 mm, and by the end of the day the pain was gone!

    Bruce

    Quoted message said:

    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
    like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.

  5. "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
    like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.


    David,

    Thanks for the post. Not only did it make me reconsider my unwillingness to
    tilt my saddle forward to relieve "numb nuts", it's got me embarked on a
    full scale, blissfully obsessive, micro-adjustment program. Until now,
    three things got in the way of this:

    1) (Thank God for Usenet anonymity) I really wasn't sure how to adjust the
    bloody saddle (Still a noob, after all). I have this clasp atop the seat
    post, with hex nuts fore and aft. It took a trip to the LBS today to learn
    that to tilt the saddle forward, I loosen the aft nut--say 1/4 turn--then
    tighten the fore one an equal amount. (To those who suddenly feel blessed
    with a towering intellect, you're welcome.)
    2) I didn't really believe that a few millimeters could make a difference.
    (And they may not, in my case. But I'm gonna give it a shot, at least.) As
    I said, you've convinced my otherwise.
    3) I was really starting to warm to the idea of shopping for a 'bent (and
    may still do so. What the hell. Need to grow a beard, though ;-) )

    I've established a baseline tilt thusly:

    - Place the bike on level ground
    - Place a flat, straight board on the saddle (I used a 1-foot length of 2x6.
    Could've run it through a planer, I suppose, except I don't own one.)
    - Place a level on the board with the level's bubble perpendicular to the
    midpoint of the seat post diameter.
    - Set an initial forward tilt whereby the bubble in the level exactly
    bisects the aft vertical line in the LevelLiquidFilledCylinderThing. This
    translates, more or less, to the saddle's nose tip being 3-4 millimeters
    below level.

    In about 15 mintues I'll hit the road.

    Peter

    Anti-spam =
    a) Remove NS_
    b) Change 3 zeroes to alpha O's

  6. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
    like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.


    David,

    Thanks for the post. Not only did it make me reconsider my unwillingness to
    tilt my saddle forward to relieve "numb nuts", it's got me embarked on a

    How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of concavity in it. and
    I set it up so that the front end is as level as I can get it, which
    leaves the back tilted up just slightly.

    Quoted message said:

    full scale, blissfully obsessive, micro-adjustment program. Until now,
    three things got in the way of this:

    1) (Thank God for Usenet anonymity) I really wasn't sure how to adjust the
    bloody saddle (Still a noob, after all). I have this clasp atop the seat
    post, with hex nuts fore and aft. It took a trip to the LBS today to learn
    that to tilt the saddle forward, I loosen the aft nut--say 1/4 turn--then
    tighten the fore one an equal amount. (To those who suddenly feel blessed
    with a towering intellect, you're welcome.)
    2) I didn't really believe that a few millimeters could make a difference.
    (And they may not, in my case. But I'm gonna give it a shot, at least.) As
    I said, you've convinced my otherwise.

    3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting the height,
    remember), but you won't know until you try it. Don't forget to write
    down your changes as you go, in case you have to start mixing them up,
    like raising the saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at
    the same time.

    Quoted message said:

    3) I was really starting to warm to the idea of shopping for a 'bent (and
    may still do so. What the hell. Need to grow a beard, though ;-) )

    I've established a baseline tilt thusly:

    - Place the bike on level ground
    - Place a flat, straight board on the saddle (I used a 1-foot length of 2x6.
    Could've run it through a planer, I suppose, except I don't own one.)
    - Place a level on the board with the level's bubble perpendicular to the
    midpoint of the seat post diameter.
    - Set an initial forward tilt whereby the bubble in the level exactly
    bisects the aft vertical line in the LevelLiquidFilledCylinderThing. This
    translates, more or less, to the saddle's nose tip being 3-4 millimeters
    below level.

    In about 15 mintues I'll hit the road.

    Let us know how it goes!

    --
    Dave Kerber
    Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

  7. David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of concavity in it. and
    I set it up so that the front end is as level as I can get it, which
    leaves the back tilted up just slightly.


    That may also be the case with mine (Koobi Enduro PRS). There's a photo at

    http://www.koobi.com/koobi/showdetl.cfm?&DID=6&User_ID=274909&st=4509&st2=38065493&st3=-72920763&Product_ID=35&CATID=3

    but it isn't from an angle that tells whether the back is a hair higher.

    Quoted message said:


    3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting the height,
    remember), but you won't know until you try it. Don't forget to write
    down your changes as you go, in case you have to start mixing them up,
    like raising the saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at
    the same time.


    The baseline I described in my earlier post (i.e., having the bubble in the
    level bisect the aft vertical line in the glass cylinder) was an LBS
    suggestion. Since I calculated the tilt in millimeters by lifting the level
    until the bubble was dead center in the cylinder, my guess is highly
    unreliable, given normal unsteadiness of hand. In any case it was a place
    to start. And yes, tonite's project is to set up Saddle Positioning
    Spreadsheet.xls with too many columns to mention.

    Quoted message said:


    Let us know how it goes!


    Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows, because it really
    may make or break me riding an upright bicycle. I rode a leisurely 12 miles
    at 13 mph (so just short of 1 hour)--intentionally slower than my normal
    ~15mph for this route.

    [ Question: Might lower cadence and absence of hills skew results, or is it
    a non-issue?]

    I felt rather more pressure on my hands, which was to be expected, but no
    inordinate discomfort--certainly no outright pain or numbness in the upper
    body. Certainly didn't feel like I was sliding forward on the saddle.
    _Toe_ numbness, which heretofore had always crept up on me 30-45 minutes
    into a ride, was 90 percent eliminated. EXCELLENT!

    As for penile numbness, well, it went like this. Right at the outset, I
    realized that, in addition to saddle tilt, there was a second issue needing
    attention--the position of my penis when I ride. Ordinarily, when in
    non-biking mode, my penis rides left of center. On the bike, I've been
    adopting this position for two reasons: 1) because it feels natural, and 2)
    because following some surgery last year, I had to be catheterized. (Guys,
    avoid this if possible--especially if the nurse seems testy.) As a result,
    I've had episodes of what I'd call urethral pain down the length of my
    penis. This was exacerbated when I rode a bicycle with my penis dead
    center. So I slung it off to the left. About 45 minutes into the ride, I
    noticed F**K, I'm completely numb! Little Petie, speak to me! Speak to me!
    I needed no further prompting to reposition the seemingly lifeless member
    right into the full-length, now highly appreciated Koobi saddle cutout.
    Dork that I am, I didn't pay attention to the single huge difference between
    the Koobi and my old Specialized Milano (aside from firmness)---on the
    Milano the cutout went from the back of the saddle to about midpoint, then
    just bloody ended (so no cutout, really, for my penis). The Koobi, OTOH,
    gives me cutout right where I need it, I think. More experimentation is
    definitely necessary.

    [Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the casual observer,
    but I have to ask: Do you ride with your penis dead center, or do you dogleg
    left/right?]

    As for butt pain, no problem. And Little Petie is much improved, if not 100
    percent, but a more rigorous test of function [ :-) is required.

    As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should repost in new
    thread to draw a bit more attention?

    --
    Peter

    Anti-spam =
    a) Remove NS_
    b) Change 3 zeroes to alpha O's

  8. Quoted message said:

    As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should repost in new
    thread to draw a bit more attention?

    Let your package hang as it will, there is no specific advice
    availabe on this topic except don't sit on it.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
    ------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of concavity in it. and
    I set it up so that the front end is as level as I can get it, which
    leaves the back tilted up just slightly.


    That may also be the case with mine (Koobi Enduro PRS). There's a photo at

    http://www.koobi.com/koobi/showdetl.cfm?&DID=6&User_ID=274909&st=4509&st2=38065493&st3=-72920763&Product_ID=35&CATID=3

    but it isn't from an angle that tells whether the back is a hair higher.

    Quoted message said:


    3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting the height,
    remember), but you won't know until you try it. Don't forget to write
    down your changes as you go, in case you have to start mixing them up,
    like raising the saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at
    the same time.


    The baseline I described in my earlier post (i.e., having the bubble in the
    level bisect the aft vertical line in the glass cylinder) was an LBS
    suggestion. Since I calculated the tilt in millimeters by lifting the level
    until the bubble was dead center in the cylinder, my guess is highly
    unreliable, given normal unsteadiness of hand. In any case it was a place
    to start. And yes, tonite's project is to set up Saddle Positioning
    Spreadsheet.xls with too many columns to mention.

    Quoted message said:


    Let us know how it goes!


    Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows, because it really
    may make or break me riding an upright bicycle. I rode a leisurely 12 miles
    at 13 mph (so just short of 1 hour)--intentionally slower than my normal
    ~15mph for this route.

    [ Question: Might lower cadence and absence of hills skew results, or is it
    a non-issue?]

    It might, because an easier pace would probably have less pressure on
    the pedals, leaving more on your saddle and/or hands.

    Quoted message said:

    I felt rather more pressure on my hands, which was to be expected, but no
    inordinate discomfort--certainly no outright pain or numbness in the upper
    body. Certainly didn't feel like I was sliding forward on the saddle.

    If it didn't feel that way when taking it easy, it almost certainly
    won't when you're pushing harder.

    Quoted message said:

    _Toe_ numbness, which heretofore had always crept up on me 30-45 minutes
    into a ride, was 90 percent eliminated. EXCELLENT!

    As for penile numbness, well, it went like this. Right at the outset, I

    ....

    I never thought about it, and just things fall where they may, so to
    speak <GG>.

    Quoted message said:

    As for butt pain, no problem. And Little Petie is much improved, if not 100
    percent, but a more rigorous test of function [ :-) is required.

    As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should repost in new
    thread to draw a bit more attention?

    Are you sure you want more attention to this issue <Grin>?

    --
    Dave Kerber
    Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

  10. "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    Are you sure you want more attention to this issue <Grin>?


    Good point. ;-)

    Time to stop asking questions and simply believe the evidence of my senses.

    --
    Peter

    Anti-spam =
    a) Remove NS_
    b) Replace 3 zeroes with alpha O's

  11. Peter wrote in part:

    << Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows, because it really
    may make or break me riding an upright bicycle. >>

    <snip>

    Peter,

    Genital numbness is not an acceptable condition while riding a
    bike. I second your motion to tilt the saddle slightly down. Along
    with this, consider rotating your handlebars or brake levers up
    a little bit, or just raise the bars a little, or a combination. That
    will help you keep from putting too much pressure on the
    hands while you relieve pressure on your package.

    Most importantly, you need to move around a lot on the saddle
    as you ride. Change positions slightly on a near constant basis.
    You never want to be sitting heavily in one position for any
    length of time. Stay light. Slide forward and slide back. Stand on the pedals
    every once in a while even if there is no hill.

    I find that bike shorts exert an unnatural grip on my package and that I suffer
    a lot more numbness while wearing bike shorts than regular boxers and cut-offs
    or even jeans.

    Robert

  12. On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 02:17:26 GMT, "xkred27" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    [Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the casual observer,
    but I have to ask: Do you ride with your penis dead center, or do you dogleg
    left/right?]

    Try dead center, pointing up. Bicycle shorts (or briefs if plain
    clothes) may help hold it in that position. That may keep it from
    contacting the saddle, regardless of cutouts.
    --
    Rick Onanian

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 02:17:26 GMT, "xkred27" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    [Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the casual observer,
    but I have to ask: Do you ride with your penis dead center, or do you dogleg
    left/right?]

    Try dead center, pointing up. Bicycle shorts (or briefs if plain
    clothes) may help hold it in that position. That may keep it from
    contacting the saddle, regardless of cutouts.

    The problem is with the nerves and blood vessels at the base pressing on
    the saddle.

    --
    Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
    newsgroups if possible).

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