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What 65 ltr sack?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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20 July 2004
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22 July 2004
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Gareth Crawshaw
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  1. Or something else if 65ltr isn't what I'm after...

    I've spent a lot of time wandering around day walks from a central point
    with a 40ish litre sack and want to start carrying my home with me... So for
    tent/sleeping bag/thermarest/cooking + clothes etc... what sack would you
    recommend, and what should I be looking for? Bearing in mind I want to be
    able to walk for four or five days, carry rope and "stuff", and in the
    winter carry an axe and crampons... Is there such a jack of all trades? And
    side pockets for water/food/? or compression straps for something else?

    Thanks for any hints or tales of experience with sacks in the different
    situations and what you might have done differently - or would now if you
    knew then what you now do!

    Gareth

  2. "Gareth Crawshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Or something else if 65ltr isn't what I'm after...

    I've spent a lot of time wandering around day walks from a central point
    with a 40ish litre sack and want to start carrying my home with me... So


    for

    Quoted message said:

    tent/sleeping bag/thermarest/cooking + clothes etc... what sack would you
    recommend, and what should I be looking for? Bearing in mind I want to be
    able to walk for four or five days, carry rope and "stuff", and in the
    winter carry an axe and crampons... Is there such a jack of all trades?


    And

    Quoted message said:

    side pockets for water/food/? or compression straps for something else?

    Thanks for any hints or tales of experience with sacks in the different
    situations and what you might have done differently - or would now if you
    knew then what you now do!

    75 Litre is a better option. IMO. But after re-reading your post anything
    over 100 Litres will do;-)

    --
    Regards,
    Chris
    --
    Bird sightings based around 'Craven' Skipton, North Yorks.
    http://www.craven-birds.co.uk/

  3. [snip]

    "John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    75 Litre is a better option. IMO. But after re-reading your post anything
    over 100 Litres will do;-)

    Yikes 100 litres! That's a big increase in size! I've been looking at 65+10
    or +15 type sacks... Looking around, it seems that the only way to get 75ltr
    is to get a 65+ litre sack, which raises a question. Compression straps. Do
    they replace side pockets? i.e. Can you use one and not t'other? If so,
    what do you use compression straps for (other than keeping the sack small?)

    thanks...

    Gareth

  4. Gareth Crawshaw said:

    Yikes 100 litres!

    Nah, 75 should do. Once upon a time 75 seemed to be the standard but it
    seems to have dropped a bit in recent years, probably due to lighter
    equipment being available.

    Quoted message said:

    That's a big increase in size! I've been looking at
    65+10 or +15 type sacks... Looking around, it seems that the only way
    to get 75ltr is to get a 65+ litre sack,

    I'd say a 65+10 should be fine.

    Quoted message said:

    which raises a question.
    Compression straps. Do they replace side pockets?

    Yes. Compression straps are much better IMO. They mean that you can
    strap your tent, karrimat etc to the outside of your pack. Effectively
    gives you much more capacity if you need it, which by the sound of it
    you will.

    Quoted message said:

    If so, what do you use compression straps for
    (other than keeping the sack small?)

    Can you use them to make the sack smaller? Jeez! I never thought of
    that!

    Take a look at the Gelert Cicada 65+10. I'm considering this one
    myself. Seemingly a bargain for just £40. Quite light for the size
    too.

    They also do a larger one, the Gelert Cicada 75+10, which might suit
    your requirements better if you're sure you'll be carrying a lot of
    stuff most of the time. Only a tenner more but quite a bit heavier.
    http://www.gelert.com/index.asp?products/product_details.asp~mainFrame

    At these prices it wouldn't be too much of a tragedy if it wasn't
    exactly what you wanted, at least it would get you started.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
    http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

  5. Gareth Crawshaw said:

    Thanks for any hints or tales of experience with sacks in the
    different situations and what you might have done differently - or
    would now if you knew then what you now do!

    If I knew then what I know now I would have invested in ultralight
    camping gear from the very beginning - ultralight tent, ultralight down
    sleeping bag, light waterproofs, light gas stove, etc, etc.

    Never did take to backpacking very much because I was always carrying
    too much gear. I'm now in the process of trying to change all that.

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
    http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

  6. Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person John
    Smith <[email hidden]> said
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Thanks for any hints or tales of experience with sacks in the different
    situations and what you might have done differently - or would now if you
    knew then what you now do!

    75 Litre is a better option. IMO. But after re-reading your post anything
    over 100 Litres will do;-)

    I was thinking more along the lines of a trailer. Of course, fitting the
    tow hitch could be a little painful. 8>. Or possibly a team of Sherpas
    ...

    --
    GSV Three Minds in a Can
    Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

  7. On 20/7/04 11:39 pm, in article [email hidden], "Gareth

    Crawshaw said:

    Or something else if 65ltr isn't what I'm after...

    I've spent a lot of time wandering around day walks from a central point
    with a 40ish litre sack and want to start carrying my home with me... So for
    tent/sleeping bag/thermarest/cooking + clothes etc... what sack would you
    recommend, and what should I be looking for? Bearing in mind I want to be
    able to walk for four or five days, carry rope and "stuff", and in the
    winter carry an axe and crampons... Is there such a jack of all trades? And
    side pockets for water/food/? or compression straps for something else?

    I think you will find that 60 litres is not quite enough; it is amazing how
    food, ropes, crampons and the like east up space. I would have a look at 75
    litres - a sack that has good compression when you do have some spare space.

    I'm off for a couple of weeks of backpacking shortly using a new sack. When
    you trial pack for the first time one of the main things you look for is
    some spare space simply because experience tells me that I'm in trouble
    without it. You can always strap things to the sides and to the top of the
    pack but keeping everything properly stored inside is the best bet.

    --
    Andy Howell
    Birmingham, UK

  8. Steve Orrell wrote

    Quoted message said:


    WHICH 65 ltr sack?

    I claim my Pedant Points (PPs)

    Wrong group for that Steve...and your Christian name garners no extra
    respect here, you know...

    T.

  9. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Gareth Crawshaw said:

    Yikes 100 litres!

    Nah, 75 should do. Once upon a time 75 seemed to be the standard but it
    seems to have dropped a bit in recent years, probably due to lighter
    equipment being available.

    Quoted message said:

    That's a big increase in size! I've been looking at
    65+10 or +15 type sacks... Looking around, it seems that the only way
    to get 75ltr is to get a 65+ litre sack,

    I'd say a 65+10 should be fine.

    Quoted message said:

    which raises a question.
    Compression straps. Do they replace side pockets?

    Yes. Compression straps are much better IMO. They mean that you can
    strap your tent, karrimat etc to the outside of your pack. Effectively
    gives you much more capacity if you need it, which by the sound of it
    you will.

    Quoted message said:

    If so, what do you use compression straps for
    (other than keeping the sack small?)

    Can you use them to make the sack smaller? Jeez! I never thought of
    that!

    I was thinking along the line that if you had side pockets and compression
    straps, the straps might keep the sack more "streamlined" (which might be an
    advantage going round things - bit like a climbing sack...?) Just a
    thought...

    Quoted message said:

    Take a look at the Gelert Cicada 65+10. I'm considering this one
    myself. Seemingly a bargain for just £40. Quite light for the size
    too.

    They also do a larger one, the Gelert Cicada 75+10, which might suit
    your requirements better if you're sure you'll be carrying a lot of
    stuff most of the time. Only a tenner more but quite a bit heavier.
    http://www.gelert.com/index.asp?products/product_details.asp~mainFrame

    Had a look (and they do look good...esp. the 75+10) but in terms of
    durability (and "weatherproofness"😉 how does polyester versus e.g. nylon
    (more expensive) compare? Looking at the Berghaus Akamus for example, costs
    £100. Does the material really make that much difference? Would the Berghaus
    last twice as long or is the name alone double the cost?

    Quoted message said:

    At these prices it wouldn't be too much of a tragedy if it wasn't
    exactly what you wanted, at least it would get you started.

    I guess a lifetime guarantee for £40 or £50 is good enough for me! Thanks
    Paul...

    Gareth

  10. Gareth Crawshaw said:

    Or something else if 65ltr isn't what I'm after...

    65 is a goodish size, especially if you can extend it a bit.

    Quoted message said:

    I've spent a lot of time wandering around day walks from a central point
    with a 40ish litre sack and want to start carrying my home with me... So for
    tent/sleeping bag/thermarest/cooking + clothes etc... what sack would you
    recommend, and what should I be looking for?

    Something that fits you well: all backs are a bit different and some
    back systems will consequently suit different people better than others.
    Try on a load with a load inside, get the comfy one where the other
    features tie with what you want.

    Quoted message said:

    able to walk for four or five days, carry rope and "stuff", and in the
    winter carry an axe and crampons... Is there such a jack of all trades? And
    side pockets for water/food/? or compression straps for something else?

    My personal preference is compression straps. You can always use them
    to mount detachable pockets. Quite a few packs have bellows side
    pockets that lie flat when not in use but I prefer detachable ones: no
    extra weight if you leave them off, you can use the pockets as
    organisers inside the main compartment and you can stow stuff like tent
    poles behind them when they're mounted.

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks for any hints or tales of experience with sacks in the different
    situations and what you might have done differently - or would now if you
    knew then what you now do!

    I bought a Lowe Kangtega back in '88, and it's still going strong. Went
    back to Lowe for some minor maintenance before I went to Norway at
    Easter which cost me the princely sum of 10 pounds: a well made sack
    will last a /long/ time! Haven't seen anything since I wish I had
    instead, including its successors from Lowe (the Alpamayos). The Kang
    is a slim profile mountaineering sack with compression straps, extending
    snowlock and lid and a lower zip entrance as well as the top load. It's
    done everything I've ever needed of it.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  11. Gareth Crawshaw wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Or something else if 65ltr isn't what I'm after...

    I used to backpack with 75l and reached the same conclusion that a
    lot of people reach which is you will fill all of the space that you
    have available. If you by a bigger pack then you'll fill it without
    necessarily improving the quality of your walk. I subsequently down-
    siezed to a 65l pack with a noticeable improvement in walking quality
    without feeling that I was skimping on my kit. I echo Paul's observation,
    however, that if you are going to carry as little as you can get away
    with then you should try and invest also in lightweight stuff. Polycotton
    doesn't absorb as much water as cotton and it dries quicker. A small
    gas stove is also desirable as well as single skin tent and a down
    sleeping bag. Attention to detail like this is more likely to deliver
    benefits than the absolute size of your pack.

    For the record I went from a Karrimor Panther 75 to a Panther 65.
    They're both perfectly serviceable bits of kit without being too
    pricey. Whether you can still get hold of them is another matter !

    Chris

  12. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Gareth Crawshaw said:

    Thanks for any hints or tales of experience with sacks in the
    different situations and what you might have done differently - or
    would now if you knew then what you now do!

    If I knew then what I know now I would have invested in ultralight
    camping gear from the very beginning - ultralight tent, ultralight down
    sleeping bag, light waterproofs, light gas stove, etc, etc.

    I've been lucky on that front as I replaced most of my gear this and last
    year after a long break...

    Quoted message said:

    Never did take to backpacking very much because I was always carrying
    too much gear. I'm now in the process of trying to change all that.

    All I need is somthing to carry it all in!

    Gareth

  13. Gareth Crawshaw said:

    All I need is something to carry it all in!

    A sea kayak, then! ;-)
    (seriously, if you want to take a Load Of Stuff to a premium wild
    camping location then it's a great way to do it, but unlike walking you
    can't just pull on a sack and stroll off...)

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  14. Steve Orrell wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, youarsey is far too quiet for a decent thread.

    Are you saying that you couldn't start an argument in an empty room? And
    the rest of youarsey have been saying exactly the opposite for years...

    Quoted message said:

    well, y'know there are some [semi]civilised people in here ;-)

    Indeed there are. The kind of people that put the 'l' into wa*king, unlike
    the happy cro-magnons on youarsey. I'm surprised they let either of us in
    here...

    T.

  15. Gareth Crawshaw said:

    I was thinking along the line that if you had side pockets and
    compression straps, the straps might keep the sack more "streamlined"
    (which might be an advantage going round things - bit like a climbing
    sack...?) Just a thought...

    Yeah, the compression sack bags are narrower (I think they call it
    "alpine" style) so that there's plenty of room for arm movement with no
    pockets getting in the way, ideal if you are doing a bit of scrambling.
    In my experience though, I never scramble when I'm carrying a heavy
    sack. I don't like restricted arm movement though. You *can* strap
    stuff to the sides of the sack but it's neater if you can get it all
    inside. That way you your gear doesn't risk getting damaged by branches
    or brambles as you scrape past.

    Quoted message said:

    Had a look (and they do look good...esp. the 75+10) but in terms of
    durability (and "weatherproofness"😉 how does polyester versus e.g.
    nylon (more expensive) compare?

    As far as durability is concerned, how much of a bashing are you likely
    to give your rucksack? In practice I find that I don't throw mine
    around and the occasional scrape against rocks and trees is no real
    problem. If you're likely to give your rucksack a hard time then you
    might need a tough material but in my experience it doesn't need to be
    as tough as I first thought. The Gelert material seems fine to me.

    As for weatherproofness, no rucksack is claimed to be completely
    waterproof, but in practice most keep out the weather pretty well. You
    should always protect anything you want to keep dry with plastic bags or
    waterproof bags anyway. Things like maps, toilet paper, matches, spare
    clothing, sleeping bag. I'm always particularly careful to wrap my
    sleeping bag in a large plastic bag as well as the stuff sack if I
    expect a lot of rain. You can buy rucksack liners to put inside your
    rucksack if you want.

    Quoted message said:

    Looking at the Berghaus Akamus for
    example, costs £100. Does the material really make that much
    difference? Would the Berghaus last twice as long or is the name
    alone double the cost?

    It's not just the name. It probably would last twice as long, if not
    longer. I can personally vouch for Berghaus. I used a Berghaus Cyclops
    Roc 70L for about 15 years (tough cordura with canvas back) and it's
    still in excellent condition today. I've only stopped using it because
    I wanted something a little smaller and lighter.
    http://www.berghaus.com/content/index.asp?section_id=78&content_tag=our_
    history

    Paul
    --
    http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
    http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

  16. In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Gareth Crawshaw said:

    Looking at the Berghaus Akamus for
    example, costs £100. Does the material really make that much
    difference? Would the Berghaus last twice as long or is the name
    alone double the cost?

    It's not just the name. It probably would last twice as long, if not
    longer. I can personally vouch for Berghaus. I used a Berghaus Cyclops
    Roc 70L for about 15 years (tough cordura with canvas back) and it's
    still in excellent condition today. I've only stopped using it because
    I wanted something a little smaller and lighter.
    http://www.berghaus.com/content/index.asp?section_id=78&content_tag=our_
    history

    I too have a Cyclops Roc which saw service for many years. However it is
    undoubtedly too large (70L) for most of my trips so I use a Berghaus Ice
    Star (45L) most of the time. The Ice Star is about 16 years old and is
    still going strong. Over that time I have had to sew the bottom
    attachment points of both the shoulder straps and a seam in the top
    pocket which has started to unravel but I am still very happy with it.

    I hope that their current offerings are similarly well designed and
    built.

    Having said that I will probably be getting a Kimmlite AR35 soon as it
    is about 400g lighter and being 10L smaller I won't be able to stuff as
    much gear in it!

    --

    Dominic Sexton
    http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

  17. Paul Saunders said:

    As for weatherproofness, no rucksack is claimed to be completely
    waterproof,

    Ortlieb make completely waterproof small ones. Vau De and Craghoppers
    make packs with welded seams where the only leakage would be through
    leaving the top open, or if you submerged the whole thing. Most
    rucksaks only leak through the seams. Macpac's cotton/nylon blend is
    more resistant than most to leaks as the cotton swells to fill the holes
    (how ventile is waterproof).

    Quoted message said:

    should always protect anything you want to keep dry with plastic bags or
    waterproof bags anyway. Things like maps, toilet paper, matches, spare
    clothing, sleeping bag. I'm always particularly careful to wrap my
    sleeping bag in a large plastic bag as well as the stuff sack if I
    expect a lot of rain. You can buy rucksack liners to put inside your
    rucksack if you want.

    One important thing to remember is even if you /do/ have a waterproof
    pack, it will only keep the contents dry from external water. If you
    put a wet tent inside a waterproof pack then you can't expect the
    contents to keep dry!
    I use a lightweight Ortlieb dry bag as a stuffsack for my sleeping bag,
    which is quite tough and completely waterproof. My gf has a Seal Line
    dry bag with a purge valve at the bottom which means it bleeds the
    excess air as you pack it, so helping you keep it small.
    I don't really trust plastic bags as liners, they tear and split too
    easily if things are on the tight side IME, so I use neoprene bags with
    taped seams that I got from F&T.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  18. "Chris Gilbert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Gareth Crawshaw wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Or something else if 65ltr isn't what I'm after...

    I used to backpack with 75l and reached the same conclusion that a
    lot of people reach which is you will fill all of the space that you
    have available. If you by a bigger pack then you'll fill it without
    necessarily improving the quality of your walk. I subsequently down-
    siezed to a 65l pack with a noticeable improvement in walking quality
    without feeling that I was skimping on my kit. I echo Paul's observation,
    however, that if you are going to carry as little as you can get away
    with then you should try and invest also in lightweight stuff. Polycotton
    doesn't absorb as much water as cotton and it dries quicker. A small
    gas stove is also desirable as well as single skin tent and a down
    sleeping bag. Attention to detail like this is more likely to deliver
    benefits than the absolute size of your pack.

    For the record I went from a Karrimor Panther 75 to a Panther 65.
    They're both perfectly serviceable bits of kit without being too
    pricey. Whether you can still get hold of them is another matter !

    Chris

    I'd agree with those who say that the bigger the sac, the more stuff you'll
    take. Size requirements clearly depend upon the bulkiness of your equipment,
    and the types of food you take - but 75L IMHO would be far too much for a
    few days, and you will fill it up. With 60L, which IMHO is plenty, there is
    still a temptation is to take extra spare lucky just-in-case clothes. Things
    that you won't always take, like rope/crampons would easily fit on the
    outside, provided you've got decent webbing.

    Another (somewhat contrary) solution is to go with an expandable system.
    I've had a couple of excellent and very versatile Karrimors; both have had
    zip-down sides that allow extension by a considerable amount (60-80 and
    60-100). I only ever use the 60L "mode" when walking, but it's great knowing
    that whatever you do, you can always fit everything in. At the moment, my
    Independence is sitting on my landing with enough camping kit in it for my
    family of four (minus clothes/food), including several ridiculous luxury
    items. However, it does add weight to the rucksack itself (Independence =
    3kg) and I've really only used the extra capacity for longer, international
    trips, where I'll be base-camping (in this case taking my family to the
    Pyrenees; though the principle also applied in the Himalayas and the
    Adironacks, before my family was invented). I wouldn't ever walk with 100
    litres of kit (unless it was 100L of polystyrene or popcorn), but it's
    surprising how often having that capability has been really useful in an
    enormous variety of ways. So expansion gives you much more versatility, and
    has made a good all-round solution for me, but clearly it is a compromise
    which lightweight purists would laugh at.

    I'm currently adapting my philosophy to go as minimal as possible for some
    fast and furious weekends, with the goal of longer-term bushcrafting. I
    reckon I can now get everything I need for 2 comfortable
    spring/summer/autumn nights *inside* a 38L day sack, though I've yet to
    field-test this fully.

    Ken.

  19. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Gareth Crawshaw said:

    I was thinking along the line that if you had side pockets and
    compression straps, the straps might keep the sack more "streamlined"
    (which might be an advantage going round things - bit like a climbing
    sack...?) Just a thought...

    Yeah, the compression sack bags are narrower (I think they call it
    "alpine" style) so that there's plenty of room for arm movement with no
    pockets getting in the way, ideal if you are doing a bit of scrambling.
    In my experience though, I never scramble when I'm carrying a heavy
    sack. I don't like restricted arm movement though. You *can* strap
    stuff to the sides of the sack but it's neater if you can get it all
    inside. That way you your gear doesn't risk getting damaged by branches
    or brambles as you scrape past.

    You've got a point there... went for a scramble a month or so ago and took a
    40 lite day sack - heavy with water - which made me a little uncomfortable a
    couple of times trying to edge my way around things... Best to do that sort
    of thing with as little as possible on you back!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Had a look (and they do look good...esp. the 75+10) but in terms of
    durability (and "weatherproofness"😉 how does polyester versus e.g.
    nylon (more expensive) compare?

    As far as durability is concerned, how much of a bashing are you likely
    to give your rucksack? In practice I find that I don't throw mine
    around and the occasional scrape against rocks and trees is no real
    problem. If you're likely to give your rucksack a hard time then you
    might need a tough material but in my experience it doesn't need to be
    as tough as I first thought. The Gelert material seems fine to me.

    Probably right... perhaps I am just a mug for names (although I am very fond
    of the Berghaus day sack I have at the moment)

    Quoted message said:

    As for weatherproofness, no rucksack is claimed to be completely
    waterproof, but in practice most keep out the weather pretty well. You
    should always protect anything you want to keep dry with plastic bags or
    waterproof bags anyway. Things like maps, toilet paper, matches, spare
    clothing, sleeping bag. I'm always particularly careful to wrap my
    sleeping bag in a large plastic bag as well as the stuff sack if I
    expect a lot of rain. You can buy rucksack liners to put inside your
    rucksack if you want.

    I think that if I think about it sensibly, black bin liners should be
    enough...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Looking at the Berghaus Akamus for
    example, costs £100. Does the material really make that much
    difference? Would the Berghaus last twice as long or is the name
    alone double the cost?

    It's not just the name. It probably would last twice as long, if not
    longer. I can personally vouch for Berghaus. I used a Berghaus Cyclops
    Roc 70L for about 15 years (tough cordura with canvas back) and it's
    still in excellent condition today. I've only stopped using it because
    I wanted something a little smaller and lighter.
    http://www.berghaus.com/content/index.asp?section_id=78&content_tag=our_
    history

    Time to go and try a few I think... Is Gelert.com the only place to get
    their bits and pieces (given that I'm nowhere near their store)?

    Thanks for all your help,

    Gareth

  20. On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:10:19 +0100, "Ken"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I'm currently adapting my philosophy to go as minimal as possible for some
    fast and furious weekends, with the goal of longer-term bushcrafting. I
    reckon I can now get everything I need for 2 comfortable
    spring/summer/autumn nights *inside* a 38L day sack, though I've yet to
    field-test this fully.

    That sounds great! Would you mind saying what you take with you, and
    how much the whole thing weighs?

    Best wishes,
    --
    Peewiglet

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