weyless and wellgo?

"Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just got the weyless mg-1 pedals I ordered from supergo. All seems well (will be testing them out
in a couple of hours), except that, while the packaging says Weyless, the pedals themselves have
"wellgo" embossed on them.

Is weyless simply a sub-brand of wellgo, or am I missing something? The packaging makes no
reference to wellgo.

Wellgo is a *huge* pedal manufacturer. They make many of the boutique-branded (and name-branded)
pedals on the market (including Ritchey). Sometimes they just decal the boutique brand name onto
pedals with the embossed Wellgo logo.

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their high-quality imported cycling components
(and frames). I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra
hardtail frame, and I'm very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very light.
From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

-=Barry=-

Quoted message said:

I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail frame,
and I'm very happy with the frame so far.

Barry, hopefully you have the second generation Weyless Ultra frame. The first generation has been
recalled due to some issues with the lightweight toptube and downtube severing a few inches from the
headtube. I've never seen anything like it. There have only been two or three occurances of frame
failure, but they were recalled just to make sure.

If your frame is black anodized you have 1st generation (faulty), if it has regular black paint you
have a 2nd generation frame.

-John Morgan

"John Morgan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pk78b.52395$cj1.4075@fed1read06...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail
frame, and I'm very happy with the frame so far.

Barry, hopefully you have the second generation Weyless Ultra frame. The first generation has been
recalled due to some issues with the lightweight toptube and downtube severing a few inches from
the headtube. I've never seen anything like it. There have only been two or three occurances of
frame failure, but they were recalled just to make sure.

Thanks, John. Yes, I have the 2nd generation (2003) Weyless Ultra frame.

I've seen photos of a 1st generation (2002) Weyless Ultra frame snapped neatly in two pieces, in the
middle of the downtube and top tube. Looked *very* dangerous. Supergo says they collaborated with
Easton engineers to re-design the frame from the ground up. I figure Easton knows a thing or two
about bike frames. Nice CNC'd seat stay brace. Solid and stiff as any frame I've ridden (including
my Klein Attitude and former Stumpy M2 hardtail).

Quoted message said:

If your frame is black anodized you have 1st generation (faulty), if it

has

Quoted message said:

regular black paint you have a 2nd generation frame.

Mine is painted black. I wonder...do you think the anodizing is what caused the failures?

-Barry

Quoted message said:

Mine is painted black. I wonder...do you think the anodizing is what

caused

Quoted message said:

the failures?

-Barry

Nah, if anything, the anodizing makes aluminum stronger and more durable. I think it had something
to do with the tubes they used in constructing the frame.

Happy and safe riding,

-John Morgan

John Morgan said:

Quoted message said:

Mine is painted black. I wonder...do you think the anodizing is what

caused

Quoted message said:

the failures?

-Barry

Nah, if anything, the anodizing makes aluminum stronger and more durable. I think it had something
to do with the tubes they used in constructing the frame.

I think you're right about the root cause, but anodizing often makes aluminum more prone to failure
(which is why anodized rims fail much more often than non-anodized rims). The thin anodizing surface
is very brittle, and cracks form in it, form itty bitty little stress risers and eventually the
crack propagates to the underlying aluminum.

I'm not sure this ever really happens on a frame... but it's certainly possible (and the fact the
anodized ones cracked and they switched to paint may or may not be significant).

Mark "don't need no anodizin'" Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the
$695 ti frame

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their high-quality imported cycling
components (and frames). I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their
Weyless Ultra hardtail frame, and I'm very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff,
very light. From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us that
frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about bicycles. Do
you even ride?

JD

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their high-quality imported cycling
components (and frames). I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their
Weyless Ultra hardtail frame, and

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very

light.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us
that frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about
bicycles. Do you even ride?

JD

"big purple dinosaur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their

high-quality

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

imported cycling components (and frames). I have a high-end custom

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail frame,

and

Quoted message said:

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very

light.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us
that frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about
bicycles. Do you even ride?

Oh, look, another sad and boring troll.

<plonk

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CXr8b.429596$uu5.77187@sccrnsc04...

Quoted message said:

"big purple dinosaur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

> Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their

high-quality

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> imported cycling components (and frames). I have a high-end custom

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail frame,

and

Quoted message said:

I'm

Quoted message said:

> very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very

light.

Quoted message said:

> From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us
that frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about
bicycles. Do you even ride?

Oh, look, another sad and boring troll.

<plonk>

oh look, another sad and boring coward.

<plonk

"mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CXr8b.429596$uu5.77187@sccrnsc04...

Quoted message said:

"big purple dinosaur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> "B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...
> > Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their

high-quality

Quoted message said:

> > imported cycling components (and frames). I have a high-end

custom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike

Quoted message said:

> > (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail

frame,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

I'm
> > very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very
light.
> > From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.
>
> Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell
> us that frame was built custom for you

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about bicycles. Do you even ride?

Oh, look, another sad and boring troll.

<plonk>

oh look, another sad and boring coward.

<plonk>

LOL. Killed two birds with one stone.

Sweet.

-=B=-

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Pcv8b.426319$YN5.288450@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

"mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CXr8b.429596$uu5.77187@sccrnsc04...

Quoted message said:

"big purple dinosaur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
>
> "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> "]news:[email hidden]...
> > "B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...
> > > Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their
high-quality
> > > imported cycling components (and frames). I have a high-end

custom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike
> > > (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail

frame,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> I'm
> > > very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff,

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> light.
> > > From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.
> >
> > Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to
> > tell us that frame was built custom for

you

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about bicycles.

Do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > you even ride?

Oh, look, another sad and boring troll.

<plonk>

oh look, another sad and boring coward.

<plonk>

LOL. Killed two birds with one stone.

you plonked yourself?

Quoted message said:

Sweet.

tweet.

"tyler durden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Pcv8b.426319$YN5.288450@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

"mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CXr8b.429596$uu5.77187@sccrnsc04...
> "big purple dinosaur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> "]news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > "]news:[email hidden]...
> > > "B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...
> > > > Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their
> high-quality
> > > > imported cycling components (and frames). I have a high-end

custom

Quoted message said:

> bike
> > > > (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail

frame,

Quoted message said:

> and
> > I'm
> > > > very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff,

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > light.
> > > > From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent

value.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > > Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to
> > > tell us that frame was built custom for

you

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

> > > will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about bicycles.

Do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > you even ride?
>
> Oh, look, another sad and boring troll.
>
> <plonk>
>
oh look, another sad and boring coward.

<plonk>

LOL. Killed two birds with one stone.

you plonked yourself?

No, but I got rid of two useless trolls in one posting.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, great. If you want to bait and troll, then welcome to
my killfile. Simple as that.

-=B=-

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%yx8b.328832$Oz4.120358@rwcrnsc54...

Quoted message said:

"tyler durden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Pcv8b.426319$YN5.288450@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

"mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
>
> "B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CXr8b.429596$uu5.77187@sccrnsc04...
> > "big purple dinosaur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > "]news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > "]news:[email hidden]...
> > > > "B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...
> > > > > Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their
> > high-quality
> > > > > imported cycling components (and frames). I have a high-end
custom
> > bike
> > > > > (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra

hardtail

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

frame,
> > and
> > > I'm
> > > > > very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very

stiff,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very

Quoted message said:

> > > light.
> > > > > From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent

value.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > >
> > > > Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a

custom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > bicycle. If you try to tell us that frame was built custom

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you

Quoted message said:

it
> > > > will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about

bicycles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do

Quoted message said:

> > > > you even ride?
> >
> > Oh, look, another sad and boring troll.
> >
> > <plonk>
> >
> oh look, another sad and boring coward.
>
> <plonk>

LOL. Killed two birds with one stone.

you plonked yourself?

No, but I got rid of two useless trolls in one posting.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, great. If you want to bait

and

Quoted message said:

troll, then welcome to my killfile. Simple as that.

give up already?

"tyler durden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%yx8b.328832$Oz4.120358@rwcrnsc54...

Quoted message said:

"tyler durden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Pcv8b.426319$YN5.288450@sccrnsc01...
> "mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> "]news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:CXr8b.429596$uu5.77187@sccrnsc04...
> > > "big purple dinosaur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > "]news:[email hidden]...
> > > >
> > > > "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > "]news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > "B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...
> > > > > > Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > high-quality
> > > > > > imported cycling components (and frames). I have a

high-end

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> custom
> > > bike
> > > > > > (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra

hardtail

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> frame,
> > > and
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very

stiff,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very
> > > > light.
> > > > > > From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent

value.

Quoted message said:

> > > > >
> > > > > Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a

custom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > bicycle. If you try to tell us that frame was built custom

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you
> it
> > > > > will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about

bicycles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do
> > > > > you even ride?
> > >
> > > Oh, look, another sad and boring troll.
> > >
> > > <plonk>
> > >
> > oh look, another sad and boring coward.
> >
> > <plonk>
>
> LOL. Killed two birds with one stone.
>
you plonked yourself?

No, but I got rid of two useless trolls in one posting.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, great. If you want to bait

and

Quoted message said:

troll, then welcome to my killfile. Simple as that.

give up already?

What do you mean?

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their high-quality imported cycling
components (and frames). I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their
Weyless Ultra hardtail frame, and

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very

light.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us
that frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about
bicycles. Do you even ride?

JD

I'm kind of curious as to what would be 'custom' about a weyless frame too? I mean, they're just
cheap, made in tawain knockoffs of other manufacturer's designs, as far as I recall.

I'm with JD on this one. If someone who proclaims to be an expert on bikes, thinks that building up
a bike with xtr/raceface components, makes it a custom - that particular someone is just a plain
old not-know.

-matt

[email hidden] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their high-quality imported cycling
components (and frames). I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their
Weyless Ultra hardtail frame, and I'm very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very
stiff, very light. From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us
that frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about
bicycles. Do you even ride?

Asking Barry if he even rides is like asking Mike V. if he ever hugged a tree. Barry has been around
bikes and Usenet longer than you have been pounding your pud. His presence on am-b may be fairly
new, but he definitely has the knowledge and experiance. Maybe you should venture outside of am-b
once in a while instead of being the one-trick pony that you are.

"naive about bicycles"? Thats pretty rich coming from a "mountain biker" who couldn't tell the
difference between a URT and cantilever beam suspension.

Quoted message said:

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their high-quality imported cycling
components (and frames). I have a high-end custom bike (RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their
Weyless Ultra hardtail frame, and

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very

light.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us
that frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about
bicycles. Do you even ride?

JD

I'm kind of curious as to what would be 'custom' about a weyless frame too? I mean, they're just
cheap, made in tawain knockoffs of other manufacturer's designs, as far as I recall.

I'm with JD on this one. If someone who proclaims to be an expert on bikes, thinks that building
up a bike with xtr/raceface components, makes it a custom - that particular someone is just a
plain old not-know.

I'll bet you were with JD when he claimed a cantilever beam suspension was a URT.

Matt said...

Quoted message said:

I'm kind of curious as to what would be 'custom' about a weyless frame too? I mean, they're just
cheap, made in tawain knockoffs of other manufacturer's designs, as far as I recall.

I'm with JD on this one. If someone who proclaims to be an expert on bikes, thinks that building
up a bike with xtr/raceface components, makes it a custom - that particular someone is just a
plain old not-know.

What is even more puzzling is why he would put stupidly expensive XTR and RaceFace parts on a $150
frame. What, the frame doesn't matter?

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<3P68b.318553$cF.96438@rwcrnsc53>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Weyless is Supergo's in-house boutique brand name for their

high-quality

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

imported cycling components (and frames). I have a high-end custom

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(RaceFace/XTR, etc) built around their Weyless Ultra hardtail frame,

and

Quoted message said:

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

very happy with the frame so far. Nice geometry, very stiff, very

light.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what I've seen, the Weyless "brand" offers excellent value.

Your wayless is just that barry bargain, way less than a custom bicycle. If you try to tell us
that frame was built custom for you it will only reinforce the fact that you are naive about
bicycles. Do you even ride?

JD

I'm kind of curious as to what would be 'custom' about a weyless frame

too?

Quoted message said:

I mean, they're just cheap, made in tawain knockoffs of other

manufacturer's

Quoted message said:

designs, as far as I recall.

Wrong. Supergo engineered the 2003 Weyless Ultra frame in direct collaboration with Easton
engineers. (Yeah, they know a thing or two about frame engineering). This is not a knock-off.
It's as thoughtfully engineered as any frame you'll find. Is it hand built? Probably. Is it the
same quality as a Richard Sachs or a Merlin? Definitely not; but it's very nice, I can tell you
that much.

Are you interested in quality, or brand-name recognition? They're not the same thing.

Quoted message said:

I'm with JD on this one. If someone who proclaims to be an expert on

bikes,

Quoted message said:

thinks that building up a bike with xtr/raceface components, makes it a custom - that particular
someone is just a plain old not-know.

When I say a bike is "custom", I mean "the bike was built with a customized selection of components,
and nothing about the bike is stock." If I say my bike "has a custom frame," that means that the
frame was custom-made for me, to my specs, and is not a production model. Many cyclists commonly
refer to "custom bikes" that are built with off-the-shelf production frames. In fact, the *majority*
of custom bikes are built with production frames. (See
speedgoat.comgalleryDate.aspOpen ↗ for example. What percentage of the
custom bikes in their gallery are based upon truly custom-made frames?)

Note that just because a frame is hand-made doesn't make it a "custom frame." However, *any* frame
with a completely customized parts spec is generally referred to as a "custom" or "customized" bike.
I've been using this definition of "custom bike" for about a decade now, and have never been asked
to explain my meaning. It seems to be a commonly accepted definition.

If I had a Santa Cruz Blur with XTR, RaceFace, Marzocchi, Hope, etc, would it meet your criteria for
"custom bike?" You're drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, arguing semantics in a weak attempt at ad
hominem. It makes you look foolish and willfully ignorant.

-=Barry=-