Wetsuits...Sleeve/No Sleeve?

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:14:02 -0600, Russ Reynolds <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering as to which would be the best for me; a wet suit with full length arms, or the
sleeveless variety. I live in central Illinois and will be swinmming in the open waters from
approximately late April til September. Water temperature probably doesn't get over 80 degrees very
often. I'm wondering if the sleeveless would be the best choice for me as I go 210 to 215 at 6
foot, and generate a far amount of heat internally, and I tend to believe that without the arms one
would have greater flexibilty. On the other hand, I'm concerned with loss of body temperature
during longer swims in cooler waters.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I prefer sleeveless. I've used both a fairly high quality Full suit, Auqaman Pulsar, A
lower quailty one, can't remember teh name but it was a low end QR, and a low end QR
sleeveless. I found even the Pulsar left my arms a bit more tired than the sleevless, I'm
assuming because you have to move the material. I'm sure this condition can be made better
with a better fit and suit, but this jsut isn't a problem with a sleevless. As far as
temperature goes, only a small amount of heat is lost via arms vs head or body. Unless you
plan on going really cold water and particularly if you plan on going right up to 80
degrees I'd definatlely say sleevless. 80 degrees with a full suit would probably cause
overheating, just a guess though.

When I was looking at mine I got some good general wetsuit info here.

wetsuit.comwetsuit.comOpen ↗

Also one of the tri mags has a decent review on differnet suits, you might want to try and find
that article.

~Matt

Russ Reynolds said:

I'm wondering as to which would be the best for me; a wet suit with full length arms, or the
sleeveless variety. I live in central Illinois and will be swinmming in the open waters from
approximately late April til September. Water temperature probably doesn't get over 80 degrees
very often. I'm wondering if the sleeveless would be the best choice for me as I go 210 to 215 at
6 foot, and generate a far amount of heat internally, and I tend to believe that without the arms
one would have greater flexibilty. On the other hand, I'm concerned with loss of body temperature
during longer swims in cooler waters.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Russ,

I live in central Ohio and swim from April through September - probably in conditions nearly
identical to where you are (Bloomington?, Champaign?). Assuming you don't have some kind of
superhuman temperature tolerances at either end of the spectrum, the bad news is I'm afraid you may
eventually find you'll want both - IF you really want to do what you're describing.

I started with a sleeveless suit for use in the lakes and reservoirs around here and found it worked
great for MOST of the summer - namely Memorial Day through September.

But, if you REALLY want to get in that water in April, you'll be a lot more comfortable in a full
suit. I have a slight allergy to chlorine, so I ultimately bought a full suit to get myself into the
open water ASAP in the spring. The six extra weeks OUT of the pool were worth $150 to me. The
problem is the full suit is WAY to warm for July and August, and the sleeveless just isn't warm
enough for April and early May.

So, the question is, how badly do you really want to get in that water in April? If you can give up
some of those early season weeks, you'll be fine with a sleeveless. If April is important to you,
open your checkbook.

Just my $.02, John

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:58:13 GMT, John Hardt <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Russ Reynolds said:

I'm wondering as to which would be the best for me; a wet suit with full length arms, or the
sleeveless variety. I live in central Illinois and will be swinmming in the open waters from
approximately late April til September. Water temperature probably doesn't get over 80 degrees
very often. I'm wondering if the sleeveless would be the best choice for me as I go 210 to 215 at
6 foot, and generate a far amount of heat internally, and I tend to believe that without the arms
one would have greater flexibilty. On the other hand, I'm concerned with loss of body temperature
during longer swims in cooler waters.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Russ,

I live in central Ohio and swim from April through September - probably in conditions nearly
identical to where you are (Bloomington?, Champaign?). Assuming you don't have some kind of
superhuman temperature tolerances at either end of the spectrum, the bad news is I'm afraid you may
eventually find you'll want both - IF you really want to do what you're describing.

I started with a sleeveless suit for use in the lakes and reservoirs around here and found it
worked great for MOST of the summer - namely Memorial Day through September.

But, if you REALLY want to get in that water in April, you'll be a lot more comfortable in a full
suit. I have a slight allergy to chlorine, so I ultimately bought a full suit to get myself into
the open water ASAP in the spring. The six extra weeks OUT of the pool were worth $150 to me. The
problem is the full suit is WAY to warm for July and August, and the sleeveless just isn't warm
enough for April and early May.

So, the question is, how badly do you really want to get in that water in April? If you can give up
some of those early season weeks, you'll be fine with a sleeveless. If April is important to you,
open your checkbook.

Just my $.02, John

Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if
the could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures. This may keep someone from
having to buy two suits. I think they run 80$ or so. OTOH a good full suit, IMO much more
important to get a good fit on a full suit than a sleeveless, runs in the 250+ range.

~Matt

On 1/12/04 3:45 PM, in article [email hidden],

MJuric' MJuric said:

Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if the
could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures. This may keep someone from having to
buy two suits. I think they run 80$ or so. OTOH a good full suit, IMO much more important to get a
good fit on a full suit than a sleeveless, runs in the 250+ range.

Good thought about the neoprene although I haven't tried it.

FYI I bought a prior-year Ironman Stealth VO2 on clearance for $150. This is a good time of year to
do exactly that.

John

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:00:27 GMT, John Hardt <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

MJuric' MJuric said:

Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if the
could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures. This may keep someone from having to
buy two suits. I think they run 80$ or so. OTOH a good full suit, IMO much more important to get
a good fit on a full suit than a sleeveless, runs in the 250+ range.

Good thought about the neoprene although I haven't tried it.

FYI I bought a prior-year Ironman Stealth VO2 on clearance for $150. This is a good time of year to
do exactly that.

John

Apparently I need to sharpen my shopping skills. Was just over at Rec.Running were there's a
thread about getting good deals on Running cloths. By the looks of things I spend to much on
just about everything.

~Matt

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Hardt said:

On 1/9/04 10:14 PM, in article [email hidden], "Russ

Reynolds"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering as to which would be the best for me; a wet suit with

full

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

length arms, or the sleeveless variety. I live in central Illinois and will be swinmming in the
open waters from approximately late April til September. Water temperature probably doesn't get
over 80 degrees very often. I'm wondering if the sleeveless would be the best choice for me as
I go 210 to 215 at 6 foot, and generate a far amount of heat internally, and I tend to believe
that without the arms one would have greater flexibilty. On the other hand, I'm concerned with
loss of body temperature during longer swims in cooler waters.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Russ,

I live in central Ohio and swim from April through September - probably

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

conditions nearly identical to where you are (Bloomington?, Champaign?). Assuming you don't have
some kind of superhuman temperature tolerances at either end of the spectrum, the bad news is I'm
afraid you may eventually find you'll want both - IF you really want to do what you're
describing.

I started with a sleeveless suit for use in the lakes and reservoirs

around

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

here and found it worked great for MOST of the summer - namely Memorial

Day

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

through September.

But, if you REALLY want to get in that water in April, you'll be a lot

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

comfortable in a full suit. I have a slight allergy to chlorine, so I ultimately bought a full
suit to get myself into the open water ASAP in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spring. The six extra weeks OUT of the pool were worth $150 to me. The problem is the full suit
is WAY to warm for July and August, and the sleeveless just isn't warm enough for April and
early May.

So, the question is, how badly do you really want to get in that water in April? If you can give
up some of those early season weeks, you'll be

fine

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with a sleeveless. If April is important to you, open your checkbook.

Just my $.02, John

Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if the
could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures.

I surf with a 3/2 wetsuit on the NC coast. When it gets really cold I put a thick rashguard on under
my suit to give me some added insulation. I'm not a big guy so I get cold pretty easily.

On a sidenote, I paddled out in mid-March a couple years ago wearing a shorty suit and saw an guy
sitting in the lineup wearing only trunks. He was a big boy. Finally, my curiousity got the best of
me and I asked him if he was cold. He said, "Man, I'm from Canada."

a.

Thanks for all your replys. I'm midway between Springfield, Il. and St. Louis, Mo. Although I need
the open water experience ASAP, the longer tri's I hope to do are in June and September. Overheating
is definately a concern, as I dehydrated about mile 24 in the Lewis & Clark Marathon last September.
And the high that day was only in the low 70's. (I made the finish, but have no idea how.) I read a
review of some suits on slowtwitch.com and found that I like the idea of the so called "bibjohn's",
bibed bottoms with a seperate top. Made by T1, I think? In the end, with the local seasons, there
probably isn't one suit that going to work for everything.

Thanks again!

Russ Reynolds

MJuric said:

John Hardt said:

MJuric' MJuric said:

Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if the
could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures. This may keep someone from having to
buy two suits. I think they run 80$ or so. OTOH a good full suit, IMO much more important to get
a good fit on a full suit than a sleeveless, runs in the 250+ range.

Good thought about the neoprene although I haven't tried it.

FYI I bought a prior-year Ironman Stealth VO2 on clearance for $150. This is a good time of year
to do exactly that.

John

Apparently I need to sharpen my shopping skills. Was just over at Rec.Running were there's a
thread about getting good deals on Running cloths. By the looks of things I spend to much on
just about everything.

~Matt

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:14:02 -0600, Russ Reynolds <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering as to which would be the best for me; a wet suit with full length arms, or the
sleeveless variety. I live in central Illinois and will be swinmming in the open waters from
approximately late April til September. Water temperature probably doesn't get over 80 degrees very
often. I'm wondering if the sleeveless would be the best choice for me as I go 210 to 215 at 6
foot, and generate a far amount of heat internally, and I tend to believe that without the arms one
would have greater flexibilty. On the other hand, I'm concerned with loss of body temperature
during longer swims in cooler waters.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I was wondering the same thing myself. Found this article quites interesting on wetsuits in general
and a good section on sleeveless vs sleeved. The time differences/energy outputs on the Ironman swim
are making me think that sleeved is the way to go.

bikesportmichigan.comwetsuit.shtmlOpen ↗

"Russ Reynolds" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering as to which would be the best for me; a wet suit with full length arms, or the
sleeveless variety. I live in central Illinois and will be swinmming in the open waters from
approximately late April til September. Water temperature probably doesn't get over 80 degrees
very often. I'm wondering if the sleeveless would be the best choice for me as I go 210 to 215 at
6 foot, and generate a far amount of heat internally, and I tend to believe that without the arms
one would have greater flexibilty. On the other hand, I'm concerned with loss of body temperature
during longer swims in cooler waters.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I think it's important to know what the coldest temperatures are going to be. Keep in mind that most
races won't let you use a wet suit if the water temperature is above 78. Personally I don't think a
full suit is really a consideration until the water is less than 65F. I have a QR sleeveless that I
like very much - though I may consider the "triathlon sleeves" (from the following link) for
early/late swimming:

wetsuit.comproducts.cfmOpen ↗

-CF

In article <[email hidden]>,

asweepay said:

I was wondering the same thing myself. Found this article quites interesting on wetsuits in
general and a good section on sleeveless vs sleeved. The time differences/energy outputs on the
Ironman swim are making me think that sleeved is the way to go.

bikesportmichigan.comwetsuit.shtmlOpen ↗

Nice article, but I'd be cautious about putting too much stock in the data in that table. I doubt it
was a properly designed experiement, and it sounds like they just represent results for the author
with one trial each. YMMV a lot.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck said:

In article <[email hidden]>, asweepay

Quoted message said:

I was wondering the same thing myself. Found this article quites interesting on wetsuits in
general and a good section on sleeveless vs sleeved. The time differences/energy outputs on the
Ironman swim are making me think that sleeved is the way to go.

bikesportmichigan.comwetsuit.shtmlOpen ↗

Nice article, but I'd be cautious about putting too much stock in the data in that table. I doubt
it was a properly designed experiement, and it sounds like they just represent results for the
author with one trial each. YMMV a lot.

--Harold Buck

I noticed that too. The tests were also done on consecutive days not pointing out which test
was first. The individual also got Huge gains from the suit ~16%. Seems like alot to me.
Also I just can't see much if any gain of sleeveless over sleeves as far as speed. Your not
adding buoyance in any place that needs it. OTOH you are having to move material around with
every stroke, if anything a hinderance. I would like to see more tests on the subject
though. I've seen alot on Suit vs no suit but none on Sleevless vs Sleeves.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Hardt said:

MJuric' MJuric said:

Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if the
could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures. This may keep someone from having to
buy two suits. I think they run 80$ or so. OTOH a good full suit, IMO much more important to
get a good fit on a full suit than a sleeveless, runs in the 250+ range.

Good thought about the neoprene although I haven't tried it.

FYI I bought a prior-year Ironman Stealth VO2 on clearance for $150.

This

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is a good time of year to do exactly that.

John

Apparently I need to sharpen my shopping skills. Was just over at Rec.Running were there's a
thread about getting good deals on Running cloths. By the looks of things I spend to much on just
about everything.

I read the first post in that thread. Then realized my "Everything I run in from Wal Mart except
shoes" philosophy had no place there.

a.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:06:39 GMT, "andrew smith" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Hardt said:

On 1/12/04 3:45 PM, in article [email hidden], "MJuric" <MJuric> wrote:

> Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if
> the could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures. This may keep someone from
> having to buy two suits. I think they run 80$ or so. OTOH a good full suit, IMO much more
> important to get a good fit on a full suit than a sleeveless, runs in the 250+ range.

Good thought about the neoprene although I haven't tried it.

FYI I bought a prior-year Ironman Stealth VO2 on clearance for $150.

This

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is a good time of year to do exactly that.

John

Apparently I need to sharpen my shopping skills. Was just over at Rec.Running were there's a
thread about getting good deals on Running cloths. By the looks of things I spend to much on just
about everything.

I read the first post in that thread. Then realized my "Everything I run in from Wal Mart except
shoes" philosophy had no place there.

a.

I realized I'm too much of a procrastinator and end up buying whatever fit's the bill at
whatever price. I never buy the real good stuff, but not the always the Walmart cheapies
either. The only time I get a good deal is when my wife buys it for me. She actually likes
to shop. I HATE shopping.... Oh unless it's has to do with, bikes, cars, electronics or
power tools!

~Matt

When I compare my full suit to my sleeveless I gain about 3 minutes on an Ironman distance with the
full over the sleeveless. What you gain has some direct connection to how efficiently you swim with
no suit . My swimming sucks so I get major help from a suit.

Ken

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harold Buck said:

In article <[email hidden]>, asweepay

Quoted message said:

I was wondering the same thing myself. Found this article quites interesting on wetsuits in
general and a good section on sleeveless vs sleeved. The time differences/energy outputs on the
Ironman swim are making me think that sleeved is the way to go.

bikesportmichigan.comwetsuit.shtmlOpen ↗

Nice article, but I'd be cautious about putting too much stock in the data in that table. I doubt
it was a properly designed experiement, and it sounds like they just represent results for the
author with one trial each. YMMV a lot.

--Harold Buck

I noticed that too. The tests were also done on consecutive days not pointing out which test was
first. The individual also got Huge gains from the suit ~16%. Seems like alot to me. Also I just
can't see much if any gain of sleeveless over sleeves as far as speed. Your not adding buoyance in
any place that needs it. OTOH you are having to move material around with every stroke, if
anything a hinderance. I would like to see more tests on the subject though. I've seen alot on
Suit vs no suit but none on Sleevless vs Sleeves.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

Russ, The T1 john swims well without the top and adds a bit of protection from the cold in water
around 72 degrees. Warmer than that and I swim with a bare body, except for the Speedo. You can add
the full top or vest as you chose to suit conditions.

Ken

"lil' russie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for all your replys. I'm midway between Springfield, Il. and St. Louis, Mo. Although I need
the open water experience ASAP, the longer tri's I hope to do are in June and September.
Overheating is definately a concern, as I dehydrated about mile 24 in the Lewis & Clark Marathon
last September. And the high that day was only in the low 70's. (I made the finish, but have no
idea how.) I read a review of some suits on slowtwitch.com and found that I like the idea of the
so called "bibjohn's", bibed bottoms with a seperate top. Made by T1, I think? In the end, with
the local seasons, there probably isn't one suit that going to work for everything.

Thanks again!

Russ Reynolds

MJuric said:

John Hardt said:

On 1/12/04 3:45 PM, in article [email hidden], "MJuric" <MJuric> wrote:

>Have you seen any of those "neoprene" shirts? Just wondering if anyone has used them and if the
>could be used under a sleevless in very cold temperatures. This may keep someone from having to
>buy two suits. I think they run 80$ or so. OTOH a good full suit, IMO much more important to
>get a good fit on a full suit than a sleeveless, runs in the 250+ range.

Good thought about the neoprene although I haven't tried it.

FYI I bought a prior-year Ironman Stealth VO2 on clearance for $150.

This

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is a good time of year to do exactly that.

John

Apparently I need to sharpen my shopping skills. Was just over at Rec.Running were there's a
thread about getting good deals on Running cloths. By the looks of things I spend to much on
just about everything.

~Matt

IMKen said:

When I compare my full suit to my sleeveless I gain about 3 minutes on an Ironman distance with
the full over the sleeveless. What you gain has some direct connection to how efficiently you swim
with no suit . My swimming sucks so I get major help from a suit.

I'm a little confused. So you swim 3 minutes faster with a full sized suit over a sleeveless
suit, yes?

I think the big thing for me would be comfort. If I'm not comfortable with being too cold or having
my shoulders restricted, I'm not going to feel good. If I'm not feeling good, chances are I'll swim
more slowly just because of that. I don't own a wetsuit yet (but I'll be getting one this seasons),
but I'm really tempted to get a sleeveless suit for this reason alone - I think I'd be much more
comfortable in one over a full suit. I just don't see the hydrodynamics or bouyancy in the arms
playing that big a roll between the two suits?

- chris

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMKen said:

When I compare my full suit to my sleeveless I gain about 3 minutes on an Ironman distance with
the full over the sleeveless. What you gain has some direct connection to how efficiently you
swim with no suit . My swimming sucks so I get major help from a suit.

I'm a little confused. So you swim 3 minutes faster with a full sized suit over a sleeveless
suit, yes?

I think the big thing for me would be comfort. If I'm not comfortable with being too cold or
having my shoulders restricted, I'm not going to feel good. If I'm not feeling good, chances are
I'll swim more slowly just because of that. I don't own a wetsuit yet (but I'll be getting one
this seasons), but I'm really tempted to get a sleeveless suit for this reason alone - I think I'd
be much more comfortable in one over a full suit. I just don't see the hydrodynamics or bouyancy
in the arms playing that big a roll between the two suits?

- chris

Again I think you have to ask about water temp - just how cold was it when Ken improved by 3
minutes? How cold was it in the race previous.

I noticed two years ago during a half IM in which I wore a sleeveless suit that my shoulders and
forehead were very cold - while the rest of my body temperature was pleasant. Since the shoulders
are doing a lot of the work I would think that this would have slowed my swim times.

-CF

Chris said:

I'm a little confused. So you swim 3 minutes faster with a full sized suit over a sleeveless
suit, yes?

I think the big thing for me would be comfort. If I'm not comfortable with being too cold or
having my shoulders restricted, I'm not going to feel good. If I'm not feeling good, chances are
I'll swim more slowly just because of that. I don't own a wetsuit yet (but I'll be getting one
this seasons), but I'm really tempted to get a sleeveless suit for this reason alone - I think I'd
be much more comfortable in one over a full suit. I just don't see the hydrodynamics or bouyancy
in the arms playing that big a roll between the two suits?

- chris

Chris,

Don't make your mind up yet. My first suit was a sleeveless and I only went shopping for a full suit
when I decided I HAD to get in the (cold) water in April.

I was hesitant to say the least. I was expecting trouble and was certain I'd probably panic when I
tried to swim in the thing for the first time. The feeling of constriction around my shoulders and
arms was not something I was thrilled about - I was convinced I'd have to spend weeks getting used
to it. I was even prepared to travel farther from home to my not-favorite swimming spot so I
wouldn't be in water over my head.

Then something strange happened...

I bought the suit. Then I put it on and went swimming. And I discovered the arms on the full suit
made virtually no difference at all in terms of comfort. Speed yes (as Ken stated) but comfort no.
The manufacturer's have gotten good enough at the design of these things (varying the thickness of
the neoprene in appropriate places etc.) to make movement pretty damn effortless.

I was pleasantly surprised, you may be too.

John