Weird Hamburger

Oh, there is one other thing: Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,

unless you're grinding a LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef
using
your hand grinder, then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or
maybe
it was just poorly designed or poorly built.

How long was the crank?)

Bob

How long was the crank... hmm, now you're getting personal.

"--" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ellie C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
(e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of the
above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
sometime
during the process
The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of heat
large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
temperature-
e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a reason
iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry" the
surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
cools)
, etc.
The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
the
meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"

To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the bottom
heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a bit
of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time to
thinly cover the bottom.
I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.

Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
stainless, or aluminum.
In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was so-so
in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.

Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the hamburger
already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil. Also, I agree with
using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté pan
to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same time,
when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold it
all.

Something to think about.

Bret

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Ellie C said:

I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It would behave that way if it had been frozen -- before or after
grinding.

Isaac

Sheldon replied to me:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,unless you're grinding a
LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef using your hand grinder,
then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or maybe it was just
poorly designed or poorly built.

How long was the crank?)

How long was the crank... hmm, now you're getting personal.

Really, Sheldon, how much of your day DO you spend thinking about penises?
Or maybe a better question would be, is there any time when you're NOT
thinking about penises?

Bob

Bob said:

Ellie said:

Yes, I agree completely. Typically, I would use seasoned iron, which is my
favorite. But since in this case I would be adding tomato sauce I didn't
use my iron pans. What surprised me is not that the meat produced some
water, but that there was so much more than I have ever seen, and this
seems to be the case consistently. My husband has commented on it as well.
We're both retired and have been cooking a lot of years. We're comparing
this to previous experience.

I don't have anything to contribute to the central discussion about the
hamburger; I think it probably was adulterated with water, and there wasn't
anything you could have done to brown it. But this caught my eye:

Quoted message said:

Typically, I would use seasoned iron, which is my favorite. But since in
this case I would be adding tomato sauce I didn't use my iron pans.

You used a copper pan because you didn't want to use iron with tomato sauce?
But isn't copper a reactive surface also? Or was it coated on the inside?
My experience has been that if cast iron is seasoned well enough, the
seasoning prevents the chemical reaction with acidic ingredients; maybe the
iron pan would have been a better choice (because of the heat retention
which others have mentioned).

I wasn't worried at all about reactivity. I don't like to put liquid
into my iron pans.

Quoted message said:

Oh, there is one other thing: Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,
unless you're grinding a LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef using
your hand grinder, then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or maybe
it was just poorly designed or poorly built. How long was the crank?)

You are probably younger and stronger than I am; and you're probably
taller as well. With the grinder on my table it's just a bit too high
for me to get proper leverage on the handle. Not about to build a
special table for the grinder. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Bob

Maverick said:

"--" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ellie C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
(e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of the
above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
sometime
during the process
The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of heat
large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
temperature-
e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a reason
iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry" the
surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
cools)
, etc.
The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
the
meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"

To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the bottom
heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a bit
of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time to
thinly cover the bottom.
I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.

Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
stainless, or aluminum.
In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was so-so
in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.

Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the hamburger
already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil.

Ordinarilly I'd agree with you. This is something I've found necessary
when cooking French meat. It's very, very lean with no marbling
whatsoever. Even though this ground beef is labeled 15% fat it's hard to
believe that it's that high. It doesn't handle like any 15% fat beef I
ever used in the US.

Also, I agree with

Quoted message said:

using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté pan
to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same time,
when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold it
all.

Yep, your experience is that same as mine - back in the US. I think I
may have moved to an alternate universe! :-)

Quoted message said:

Something to think about.

Bret

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Isaac Wingfield said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ellie C said:

I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It would behave that way if it had been frozen -- before or after
grinding.

Isaac

It did not have the look or feel of frozen beef. No blood in the bottom
of the package, for instance. And it had the feel of freshly ground beef
when I broke it up to put in the frying pan.

"Maverick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"--" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ellie C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events:

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
(e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
sometime
during the process
The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of

heat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
temperature-
e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a

reason

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry"

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
cools)
, etc.
The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
the
meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"

To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the

bottom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a

bit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thinly cover the bottom.
I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.

Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
stainless, or aluminum.
In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was

so-so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.

Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the hamburger
already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil.

Its oil (fat) is mixed in with its proteins and sugars. Using oil
1) keeps the pan seasoned and
2) assures that the proteins and sugars do not touch the metal directly (and
then stick) but rather touch oil on the pan.

Also, I agree with

Quoted message said:

using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté

pan

Quoted message said:

to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same time,
when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold it
all.

I have a hunch that "one man's browning might be another man's cooking",
and so there is a wide variety of what actually is called browning.
What some of my friends call browning is not certainly steaming, and it
indeed does keep much of the juice and avoids that boiled-meat taste, but
it does not add the flavor of "gently carmelized" meat I want when I brown.

Just a hunch there is a wide variation in what people (accurately) think
of as browning.

Quoted message said:

Something to think about.

Bret

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I did wonder if some jurisdictions require, or some local practices use, a
specified amount of ice to keep the temperature of the meat down for safety
reasons - just a thought.
If it is a health regulation somewhere, think its a really poor excuse
for not having the meat cold enough and in small enough batches and in a
cold room while grinding.

"Allan Matthews" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:07:18 -0600, zxcvbob <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Dimitri said:

"Ellie C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>Sheldon wrote:

<snip>

>I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on the
>highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible,

though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit of it

first

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>and then adding more.

Sheldon is right on the money!

You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil. To test

the pan

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see if a bead of water dances.

All ground beef will steam in its own juices (natural) if there is not
enough heat. That fact is undeniable. Therefore if your ground beef

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not fry but rather steamed there was more cold meat than the stored up

heat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the pan could handle.

Dimitri

I think y'all are overlooking the comment that Ellie made that she is in
*France*. In the USA, ground beef is about the only meat you can get at
the supermarkets that is not pumped full of water -- only because it is
illegal to add water to ground beef (as Sheldon mentioned). But the
USDA regulations don't apply to whatever is sold at the local butcher
shop in Europe.

It sounds like the butcher is adding a bunch of crushed ice when he
grinds the meat. Ellie needs to find a different butcher.

The meat is probably still usable if she fries it in tiny batches over
high heat so the water can boil off as quickly as it cooks out.

Best regards,
Bob

Several people here have posted that they have doubts about ice being
added to beef as it is being ground. I would not have posted my
original post if I had not observed this practice myself...more than
once. The water does not drain from the ground meat but stays there
until it is cooked, at which time the meat simply gets boiled. Also,
at least ham, and maybe other meats can contain up to 10% water
withour being labeled "Water added"

Bob said:

Sheldon replied to me:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,unless you're grinding a
LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef using your hand
grinder, then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or maybe
it was just poorly designed or poorly built.

How long was the crank?)

How long was the crank... hmm, now you're getting personal.

Really, Sheldon, how much of your day DO you spend thinking about
penises? Or maybe a better question would be, is there any time when
you're NOT thinking about penises?

Bob

When he's not thinking about breasts, of course! 😉

Jill

Ellie C wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ellie C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
hamburger from the local market. [snip]

Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?

-aem

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.food.cooking said:

You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil.

Why not just add the oil and then heat it all together?

No reason other that the old wives tale - hot pan + cold oil = no stick.

The basic reason its it is difficult to gauge the heat of an oil filled pan
as the smoke point differs greatly based upon the oil used.

If a drop of water "dances" on a dry pan the pan is ready to cook on.

Dimitri

aem said:

Ellie C wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ellie C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
>hamburger from the local market. [snip]

Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?

-aem

Ground beef with canned chinese mixed vegetables, thickened with a
little flour or cornstarch. The only seasonings are soy sauce and a
little molasses or perhaps dark brown sugar. Serve over slightly stale
"chow mein noodles" or white rice.

It's one of the few things my Mom cooked about once a month that I never
much cared for.

Bob

aem said:

Ellie C wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ellie C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
> hamburger from the local market. [snip]

Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the

consensus

Quoted message said:

seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?

<laughing> That question can stir up a debate. When I was a boy my
mother made "American Chop Suey" (that's what we and her cookbook
called it) with elbow macaroni, ground beef, some tomato sauce, a bit
of chopped onion. Each ingredient was cooked separately, combined in a
casserole and put in the oven for a little while. I liked it...tho I
haven't had it for years. It's very similar to what is now called
"beef and macaroni". Not a thing Chinese about it.

Mac

"aem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ellie C wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ellie C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
> hamburger from the local market. [snip]

Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?

-aem

Hamburger Helper and any vegetables.

LOL

Dimitri

Dimitri said:

[snip]
Hamburger Helper and any vegetables.

LOL

Beef and canned mixed Chinese vegetables, beef and macaroni, hamburg
help and vegetables...it is now clear that all the answers to the
original post are wrong. The reason the beef exuded so much water was
Fear! It was sweat, induced by the thought of being used in a dish
like these! :-)

-aem

Dimitri said:

"aem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ellie C wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

> Ellie C <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
>>hamburger from the local market. [snip]

Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?

-aem

Hamburger Helper and any vegetables.

LOL

Dimitri

Didn't you ever have American Chop Suey in your school cafeterias?
Hamburger, elbow macaroni, onions, celery, tomatoes all mixed together,
served with a neon orange cube of cheese on the side.

Not gourmet, but a popular jr. high lunch.

gloria p

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Didn't you ever have American Chop Suey in your school cafeterias?
Hamburger, elbow macaroni, onions, celery, tomatoes all mixed together,
served with a neon orange cube of cheese on the side.

Fortunately not. I had never even *heard* of American Chop Suey until
well into my adult years. In fact, Chop Suey *is* an American dish
already, so American Chop Suey is redundant.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
[email hidden]

Puester said:

[snip]
Didn't you ever have American Chop Suey in your school cafeterias?
Hamburger, elbow macaroni, onions, celery, tomatoes all mixed
together, served with a neon orange cube of cheese on the side.

Not gourmet, but a popular jr. high lunch.

We had a really good school cafeteria that served genuine food to
middle and high school. I do know that dish, now that you describe it,
but never heard anyone call it "American Chop Suey", and it didn't have
the cheese cube. I still make something similar every great once in a
while, based on a story in one of MFK Fisher's books. Its
distinguishing feature is the addition of creamed corn. Sounds
unlikely, but works.

That school cafeteria is where I was first introduced to food service.
Learned to run the dishwashing machine, cleaned up, then later worked
the service line. After several months they introduced me to some prep
work involving the potato peeling machine and the mixer, not including
knife work. But I watched the cooks' knife skills with a lot of
interest. Eventually, I was flipping burgers and frying potatoes on
the big griddle. It was great experience for a later stint in a short
order setting. One of the things I learned, later ratified in the
army, was that different people could take the same ingredients and the
same recipes and produce very different results, based on the skill and
care they took.

-aem

"--" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Maverick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"--" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ellie C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
> ground
> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
> usual
> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events:

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
> mean
> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal
mass
(e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
sometime
during the process
The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of

heat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
temperature-
e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a

reason

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from
the
burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry"

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
cools)
, etc.
The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
the
meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"

To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the

bottom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a

bit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thinly cover the bottom.
I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.

Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon
coatings,
stainless, or aluminum.
In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was

so-so

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in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.

Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the
hamburger
already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil.

Its oil (fat) is mixed in with its proteins and sugars. Using oil
1) keeps the pan seasoned and
2) assures that the proteins and sugars do not touch the metal directly
(and
then stick) but rather touch oil on the pan.

Gotcha. I happen to use a teflon pan when I want to brown hamburger but
I've been know to throw a couple of lbs of ground beef in my CI if I think
it needs a quick seasoning. Or bacon. Bacon works well to for a quick
light re-seasoning of my CI.

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Also, I agree with

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using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté

pan

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to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same
time,
when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold
it
all.

I have a hunch that "one man's browning might be another man's cooking",
and so there is a wide variety of what actually is called browning.
What some of my friends call browning is not certainly steaming, and it
indeed does keep much of the juice and avoids that boiled-meat taste, but
it does not add the flavor of "gently carmelized" meat I want when I
brown.

I have a hunch you are right. I call it browning when the meat is a
reasonably mid to dark brown when I'm done. I don't think it's called
browning if it is grey or very light brown colored.

Course, since I've started making my own meat-spaghetti sauce (is that a
ragoo?) from scratch and not out of a jar, I've found that I always saute
(or sweat?) some diced onions and garlic in the pan first before I add the
hamburger and sausage (we prefer spicy Italian sausage)

Ok, this is where being a novice in the cooking world comes to life for me.
I know what I'm doing when it comes to, say, sauteing (or sweating) some
diced onions for my sauce but I don't know the correct culinary terms for
what I'm doing. What the hell is the difference between a saute and a sweat?
About the only difference I can see between them is the temp difference. Is
there more to it than that?

Quoted message said:

Just a hunch there is a wide variation in what people (accurately) think
of as browning.

You do realize that you've turned this thread into a major thread, right?
;->

Bret

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