Weights - but not for strength...

I do think it's important to train your lower back as it can get stiff. Maybe hyperextensions would be O.K., although some physios argue they can stress the spine.
I'm not so sure your legs will get imbalanced simply because you cycle. I find my own legs get thinner when I cycle a lot so there is no significant change in the leg muscle groups. However, people who have shorter legs may find they get excessive quad development.
Some cyclists such as Jan Ullrich swear by leg-presses but I found these pretty useless myself.
All you can really do is go over the already published thread and weight up what everyone has to say and then read as much as you can.
All in all, cycling in moderation is good for the knee and hip joints. Maybe you can protect your lower back by insulating it in damp weather?

GettingFaster said:

Hi

been reading some of the (comprehensive!!) threads on weight training. Am currently putting together my training plan for the coming winter (starting in October) and wanted to look into whether there was a place for weight training.

I don't want to start a debate on whether there's any direct value to weight training in improving cycling performance - there's already a lot of discussion out there (thank you to those who've contributed to it.) What I want to know is whether there's any weight training I can do that will minimise my chances of injury. For instance I've heard that cycling trains only one of the 4 quadricep muscles - would leg extensions help train the others to keep the muscles better balanced and aid the tracking of the knees? Would back extensions build the strength in my back that might help avoid a back injury from spending all those hours hunched over on the bike?

Any help here would be massively appreciated. Note that anything I do will not be at the expense of cycling time - I will cycle after work every day, but can go to the gym in the mornings before work if there's any need.

GettingFaster said:

Hi

been reading some of the (comprehensive!!) threads on weight training. Am currently putting together my training plan for the coming winter (starting in October) and wanted to look into whether there was a place for weight training.

I don't want to start a debate on whether there's any direct value to weight training in improving cycling performance - there's already a lot of discussion out there (thank you to those who've contributed to it.) What I want to know is whether there's any weight training I can do that will minimise my chances of injury. For instance I've heard that cycling trains only one of the 4 quadricep muscles - would leg extensions help train the others to keep the muscles better balanced and aid the tracking of the knees? Would back extensions build the strength in my back that might help avoid a back injury from spending all those hours hunched over on the bike?

Any help here would be massively appreciated. Note that anything I do will not be at the expense of cycling time - I will cycle after work every day, but can go to the gym in the mornings before work if there's any need.

stay away from leg extensions, the shearing forces on the knee are actually greater during that exercise. stick with squats and lunges, there are tons of varieties you can do. back hyperextensions might help some, but what's more important is to stretch your hip flexors, in particular the psoas muscle (use hurdler's stretch). b/c it remains in a shortened state for so long while cycling, it tends to tighten up which can result in a number of problems, one of which is low back pain.

excellent this is exactly what I was after, thanks. What is the hurdler's stretch?

GettingFaster said:

excellent this is exactly what I was after, thanks. What is the hurdler's stretch?

FWIW, I've been nursing sore gluteus medius muscles for about 2 months, due to getting a little too aggressive with my high-intensity workouts too soon in spite of the fact that I rode for 2 months at 75%MHR before starting any high intensity work. I have decided to do some work to avoid this in the future, and have ordered a knee raise machine for knee raises for the very purpose of avoiding future injury. I hear knee raises are better than situps and horizontal leg lifts.

yes, knee raises are a good exercise to work the iliopsoas muslces, but you should concentrate more one stretching them. your glute muscles will be sore from the added stress, and you may need to do some reverse hyperextensions (can do on a swiss ball) to help strengthen that area.

thirdeye73 said:

stay away from leg extensions, the shearing forces on the knee are actually greater during that exercise. stick with squats and lunges, there are tons of varieties you can do. back hyperextensions might help some, but what's more important is to stretch your hip flexors, in particular the psoas muscle (use hurdler's stretch). b/c it remains in a shortened state for so long while cycling, it tends to tighten up which can result in a number of problems, one of which is low back pain.

I think the secret to doing extensions is to do them with light to medium weights for higher reps with not too much rest between sets. I see a lot of people who load up the extension machine as though they're trying to build size - wrong! It's not a size builder.

I use extensions and 45 degree leg presses due to the problems with my lower back. For people that don't have any back problems (or who don't have a family history of back problems) they should stick with squats and do them properly with perfect form. I often wonder if my back would not be so screwed up had I never done heavy squats.

there are numerous powerlifters who routinely squat over 800lbs and never have a history of back problems. proper movement mechanics, sufficiently developed suppporting musculature and the right assistance exercises help

I disagree, Doc, and so does Franco Columbo. 🙂
I used to load up the leg-extension machine with the whole stack, plus added 20 kilo plates, plus a guy pushing down on the pad as I raised the weight. This is the best size builder for the quads I ever experienced but the secret is they have to be done after squats. Leg-extension without squats don't work the same way. At that time, I had freaky legs with quads like silicone.
Still my days of doing that kind of stuff are long gone. My joints wouldn't allow it so I'll stick to cycling in my old age 🙂

Doctor Morbius said:

I think the secret to doing extensions is to do them with light to medium weights for higher reps with not too much rest between sets. I see a lot of people who load up the extension machine as though they're trying to build size - wrong! It's not a size builder.

I use extensions and 45 degree leg presses due to the problems with my lower back. For people that don't have any back problems (or who don't have a family history of back problems) they should stick with squats and do them properly with perfect form. I often wonder if my back would not be so screwed up had I never done heavy squats.

thirdeye73 said:

there are numerous powerlifters who routinely squat over 800lbs and never have a history of back problems. proper movement mechanics, sufficiently developed suppporting musculature and the right assistance exercises help

Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. I have two discs that are almost nonexistent. Hardly any fluid or shock absorption left in them anymore. 2 things I avoid are running and heavy squats. I don't seem to have a problem squatting high reps with 100 lbs though. I wouldn't even try 200.

I'll be a candidate for spinal fusion at some point. I'm sure of it. It scares the hell out of me too.

Carrera said:

I disagree, Doc, and so does Franco Columbo. 🙂
I used to load up the leg-extension machine with the whole stack, plus added 20 kilo plates, plus a guy pushing down on the pad as I raised the weight. This is the best size builder for the quads I ever experienced but the secret is they have to be done after squats. Leg-extension without squats don't work the same way. At that time, I had freaky legs with quads like silicone.
Still my days of doing that kind of stuff are long gone. My joints wouldn't allow it so I'll stick to cycling in my old age 🙂

Well, if Franco Columbo does it then it must be the gospel truth. 😉 Ol' Franco was probably out to sell something or he was instructed to write up an article for one of Weider's publications in order to earn his keep as Arnold's side kick. Arnold used to dole out plenty of junk science too as did Mentzer. Mentzer had to use a shovel to dole out his manure!

You just stated why you shouldn't do heavy leg extensions in a previous post - because of the shearing forces accross the knee. That's what makes leg extensions a lousy size builder. They are a great warmup exercise though. I don't do them full range either. Many of the current machines will allow the ankles to go way up under the seat of the machine. I can just picture the knee cap moving all around the place when put under such stress. I usually only do the top 1/3 of the movement to minimize the movement of the knee cap and keep them in alignment.

Pete Grymkowski did only extensions prior to winning the Mr. Universe so they had to be worth something as a size builder. Of course I'm sure the extra hormones he pumped through his system had something to do with that.

Franco might have made that statement in an old book you may have heard of Three More Reps. At any rate, I agree with Franco on that score. I recall that when I only did heavy squats, my legs would stay compratively slim but, when I did the heavy extensions, growth was awesome.
I did use to have knee pain at that time (more in my hips too) but cycling has done wonders for my joints, except my lower back that cripples me these days.
As for Mike, you know he had a point. When I took some 4 months off weights due to my hernia injury, my muscles and nervous system ended up more receptive to stimulae as my fitness increased riding my bike. So, when I hit the weights again, here's what I did:
(1) Squats 2 sets to failure.
(2) Leg-curls 1 or 2 sets to failure.
(3) Bench press 3 sets.
(4) Chins 4 sets.
(5) Seated military press 2 sets.
(6) French press 2 sets
(7) Preacher curls 2 sets.
These were performed once a week. My weight went up to just under 200 pounds. I gained more weight than I had done doing my former 15 sets each muscle group and only once per week!!
I agree Mike did seem to go overboard in later years but his heavy duty theories (borrowed from Jones) are interesting. More on his site:
www.mikementzer.com

Doctor Morbius said:

Well, if Franco Columbo does it then it must be the gospel truth. 😉 Ol' Franco was probably out to sell something or he was instructed to write up an article for one of Weider's publications in order to earn his keep as Arnold's side kick. Arnold used to dole out plenty of junk science too as did Mentzer. Mentzer had to use a shovel to dole out his manure!

You just stated why you shouldn't do heavy leg extensions in a previous post - because of the shearing forces accross the knee. That's what makes leg extensions a lousy size builder. They are a great warmup exercise though. I don't do them full range either. Many of the current machines will allow the ankles to go way up under the seat of the machine. I can just picture the knee cap moving all around the place when put under such stress. I usually only do the top 1/3 of the movement to minimize the movement of the knee cap and keep them in alignment.

Pete Grymkowski did only extensions prior to winning the Mr. Universe so they had to be worth something as a size builder. Of course I'm sure the extra hormones he pumped through his system had something to do with that.

Doctor Morbius said:

Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. I have two discs that are almost nonexistent. Hardly any fluid or shock absorption left in them anymore. 2 things I avoid are running and heavy squats. I don't seem to have a problem squatting high reps with 100 lbs though. I wouldn't even try 200.

I'll be a candidate for spinal fusion at some point. I'm sure of it. It scares the hell out of me too.

i was only trying to make the point that squatting heavy is not bad for your back in general. obviously, in your case it's not a good idea. i would recommend against getting a spinal fusion. there are new treatments available that are much better. i know of one woman who had an artificial disc implanted in her lumbar region, and she is doing fine after a few months of rehab. i work in a chiro's office, and all of the fusions i've seen have had little benefit and cause a lot of pain and suffering to the patient.

Carrera said:

Franco might have made that statement in an old book you may have heard of Three More Reps. At any rate, I agree with Franco on that score. I recall that when I only did heavy squats, my legs would stay compratively slim but, when I did the heavy extensions, growth was awesome.
I did use to have knee pain at that time (more in my hips too) but cycling has done wonders for my joints, except my lower back that cripples me these days.
As for Mike, you know he had a point. When I took some 4 months off weights due to my hernia injury, my muscles and nervous system ended up more receptive to stimulae as my fitness increased riding my bike. So, when I hit the weights again, here's what I did:
(1) Squats 2 sets to failure.
(2) Leg-curls 1 or 2 sets to failure.
(3) Bench press 3 sets.
(4) Chins 4 sets.
(5) Seated military press 2 sets.
(6) French press 2 sets
(7) Preacher curls 2 sets.
These were performed once a week. My weight went up to just under 200 pounds. I gained more weight than I had done doing my former 15 sets each muscle group and only once per week!!
I agree Mike did seem to go overboard in later years but his heavy duty theories (borrowed from Jones) are interesting. More on his site:
www.mikementzer.com

unfortunately, none of these so-called "bodybuilding gurus" know anything about weight training for performance. any reputable S&C coach knows this, and that's why 99% of people working out at commercial gyms are usually a case for a good laughing session!! too bad the average exercise enthusiast knows little about the guys who've pioneered the field of S&C like Verkoshansky, Siff, Kramer, etc.

This is a cycling forum, lets not turn it into one of guys posting pics of themselves posing in front of a mirror with speedos on...lol

My back normally sets off in my sleep and then it gets very sore. Climbing may also antagonise it when the hills are steep and I have to stand. Squats even with 200 pounds will bring pain later on in the night.
Tyler Hamilton had a lot of problems with his lower back as did Eddy Merckx.
As I understand it, Mentzer was into philosophy but it was nice to have an intellectual in bodybuilding (Tom Platz included). Basically he copied his theories from Arthur Jones and now I'm sort of messing around with the same ideas with regard to cycling.
There was a study in a university in my area that championed the logic of doing short, intense cycling rides via research they carried out. This is not in order to prepare someone for the TDF but a practical way to get fit in a shorter amount of time. The nearest paralell you can get to that system is the way Roger Bannister trained for his 4 minute mile - Roger being the first human being to run a four minute mile in under 4 minutes.
Bannister spent all day studying medicine in London and only trained just over an hour every evening. He would also run to total exhaustion on a treadmill in the hospital. He was criticized by the media and many coaches for under-training but he finally ran his 4 minute mile and even went on to outsprint the Australian miler John Landy before he retired.

thirdeye73 said:

i was only trying to make the point that squatting heavy is not bad for your back in general. obviously, in your case it's not a good idea. i would recommend against getting a spinal fusion. there are new treatments available that are much better. i know of one woman who had an artificial disc implanted in her lumbar region, and she is doing fine after a few months of rehab. i work in a chiro's office, and all of the fusions i've seen have had little benefit and cause a lot of pain and suffering to the patient.

GettingFaster said:

For instance I've heard that cycling trains only one of the 4 quadricep muscles...

I'm not sure if this was covered or not, so to be clear:
All 4 quadricep muscles are engaged when extending the leg at the knee. It doesn't matter if you are on the bike or at the gym. Being a hinge joint, one cannot significantly change the plane in which the Tibia rotates around the Femur in some way that would alter the recruiting patterns of the quadricep muscles. The angle of the hip however will effect the magnitude to which the Rectus Femorus is engaged due to its being a two joint muscle.

Carrera said:

As I understand it, Mentzer was into philosophy but it was nice to have an intellectual in bodybuilding (Tom Platz included). Basically he copied his theories from Arthur Jones and now I'm sort of messing around with the same ideas with regard to cycling.

The theories of Mentzer and Jones have not been accepted by the majority. Jones sold exercise machines so of course his programmes would reflect that.

Quoted post said:

There was a study in a university in my area that championed the logic of doing short, intense cycling rides via research they carried out. This is not in order to prepare someone for the TDF but a practical way to get fit in a shorter amount of time. The nearest paralell you can get to that system is the way Roger Bannister trained for his 4 minute mile - Roger being the first human being to run a four minute mile in under 4 minutes.

When endurance coach Athur Lydiard was based in Finland (home of many top Exercise Physiologists) he was constantly at odds with the sport scientists as the research indicated heavy interval training was the fastest way to improve V02max and lactate threshold. This is true. However intervals are also the fastest way to overtrain and are very psychologically demanding. Also very hard to study athletes over a whole season. The majority of athletes train steady state for the bulk of their training.

There will always be exceptions. Graeme Obree's training was short warm up then as many 5km time trials on the road till he couldn't maintain goal pace and went home.

Peter Snell (1956 800m, 1960 800m & 1500m Olympic Champ) was on the same programme as Barry Magee (3rd 1960 Olympic Marathon) till a couple of months out and only did 2 speed sessions on the track in 1960.

German Team Pursuit in 2000 did only three track training camps. The rest was long hard miles and stage races. They did 5 speed sessions in the days leading up to Sydney which were 2 X 2000m at WR pace. The rest was 80% efforts in low gears to work on technique. First team to crack 4min for 4000m. I doubt with their road programme they would have had time or opportunity to do any weight training for the six months leading up to the Games.

Hamish Ferguson

Carrera said:

My back normally sets off in my sleep and then it gets very sore. Climbing may also antagonise it when the hills are steep and I have to stand. Squats even with 200 pounds will bring pain later on in the night.
Tyler Hamilton had a lot of problems with his lower back as did Eddy Merckx.
As I understand it, Mentzer was into philosophy but it was nice to have an intellectual in bodybuilding (Tom Platz included). Basically he copied his theories from Arthur Jones and now I'm sort of messing around with the same ideas with regard to cycling.
There was a study in a university in my area that championed the logic of doing short, intense cycling rides via research they carried out. This is not in order to prepare someone for the TDF but a practical way to get fit in a shorter amount of time. The nearest paralell you can get to that system is the way Roger Bannister trained for his 4 minute mile - Roger being the first human being to run a four minute mile in under 4 minutes.
Bannister spent all day studying medicine in London and only trained just over an hour every evening. He would also run to total exhaustion on a treadmill in the hospital. He was criticized by the media and many coaches for under-training but he finally ran his 4 minute mile and even went on to outsprint the Australian miler John Landy before he retired.

Although I was a fan of Mentzer when I was very young and impressionable, I think he's a hack today. He was trying to sell an idea and his training coursed to willing consumers with him, his brother Ray and Viator as testaments to how well it worked. However, Mike had been found on several occasions training in a very traditional manner back then. Jones was obviously selling something. His concept was being sold to the gym owners as well as the end consumers. Any gym owner would love to charge full price to have their clientele come in and do a set of each exercise and leave in 30 minutes. What a dream. Unfortunately, neither Jones' nor Mentzer's regimens have produced any real champs.

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=38

Although Mike was pretty bright (he did much better financially as a bodybuilder selling his concept than he ever would have as a doctor), there were many other bright guys in the sport at the time. Dickerson was a cultured guy, Zane was pretty sharp and, of course, Arnold did more for the sport back then than anyone. His genius was self-promotion and getting bodybuilding accepted by the masses. IMO, he was bodybuilding's version of Lance Armstrong. And yes, Platz was the humble guy that should have won the Olympia in 1981 when Franco won. None of these guys were as dumb as poridge like Mike Tyson. He's a true idiot.

On doing shorter training for cycling it seems to be gaining popularity. So much of cycling seems to be rooted in tradition where the goal is to rack up the miles base because that's the way they trained back in the day. I'm not qualified to say whether one is better than the other but as a non-pro I'm going for the one that produces the best bang for the buck. If I'm not mistaken, I've read an article stating that Chris Boardman only trained 5 hours a week for the 1 hour record (I wish I would have saved that link!). As long as I can improve my 30 minute and 50 mile time trials without doing endless miles I'll be happy.

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

thirdeye73 said:

i was only trying to make the point that squatting heavy is not bad for your back in general. obviously, in your case it's not a good idea. i would recommend against getting a spinal fusion. there are new treatments available that are much better. i know of one woman who had an artificial disc implanted in her lumbar region, and she is doing fine after a few months of rehab. i work in a chiro's office, and all of the fusions i've seen have had little benefit and cause a lot of pain and suffering to the patient.

Is this what you're talking about?

http://www.charitedisc.com/charitedev/domestic/patients/about_worldfirst.asp

I've read about it and it looks like a promising alternative to spinal fusion. I'm still going to wait as long as possible so the technique will become perfected and routine.