Weight Training to On the Bike Strength.



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[email protected] (chiefhiawatha) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Wayne) wrote:
> > Given that it's been shown that high-fat meals can shift the carbs/fats ratio of energy use
> > towards fats (at sub-maximal exercise intensities) thus resulting in a glycogen sparing effect
> > wouldn't that make a much more plausible explanation (given that it's known that glycogen
> > depletion, not fat depletion is a primary source of fatigue) as to why pro cyclists find it
> > advantageous to eat fatty foods early in races?
>
> They've been eating this stuff before I was born.
>
> We talked to the US Postal feedbag handout guy at the 2000 TdF and he said the guys can't stand
> energy bars and gels after a while. They crave real food. Inside the musettes were ham and cheese
> (teeny) sandwiches, honey and bread, and stuff like that.
>
> So I think it goes 1 tradition 2 variety and 3 caloric density.

Probably, I didn't mean to imply that i thought the above was necessary the reason some fatty foods
are eaten early in races rather that there may be a good reason why consuming some fatty foods is
advantageous.
 
> Of course they can access but the supply is so limited thay can't rely on it for more than a
> few days.

Dude, Are we talking about pros that are racing while fasting? Their fat supply that "is so limited"
is nonetheless replaceable.
>
> > What makes you think fat stores are less replaceable than glycogen stores?
>
> I never said that.

Then why do you keeping talking as if "the pros" have this limited supply that they are in grave
danger of exhausting.
>
> > BTW, it's not uncommon for pros to lose muscle mass during the grand tours.
>
> And the reason is... Not enough calories going in and not enough bodyfat to keep up with demand.
> And don't you think they would do everything they can to minimize loss of muscle mass?

You mean like take corticosteroids that may increase the proteins burned during exercise resulting
in glycogen sparing?
>
> > Given that it's been shown that high-fat meals can shift the carbs/fats ratio of energy use
> > towards fats (at sub-maximal exercise intensities) thus resulting in a glycogen sparing effect
> > wouldn't that make a much more plausible explanation (given that it's known that glycogen
> > depletion, not fat depletion is a primary source of fatigue) as to why pro cyclists find it
> > advantageous to eat fatty foods early in races?
>
> That could be a reason. The shift you speak of is not the reason told to me. Perhaps because it's
> not as important as needing to be efficient at using fat for fuel because that may be (almost) all
> that is available during the finale.

I'm not sure what you mean by efficient? Pros aren't anymore efficient at burning fat (they don't
harvest more ATP per gram of lipid than you or I). They have a greater oxidative capacity, so at any
given power output, they are doing more of that work by oxidating fats or oxidizing the products of
glycolysis resulting in glycogen sparing.

Let's just think about this for a second, lets say early in a race, a guy eats a ham and cheese
sandwhich every hour (first 3 hours). What's that going to contain, a couple hundred grams of fat at
most? Compared to the 1000's of grams of fat that even a small, very lean pro has stored that's a
drop in the bucket.

I think you're confusing two separate things. If all that is available in the finale is fats (first
of all you'd probably not be in the finale since you would have "hit the wall" when you depleted
most of your muscle/liver glycogen) what would determine your power output would be the rate of fat
oxidation by the muscles not the supply rate of the substrate. Well, at least I have never heard of
someone running out of fat as a fuel source.

Check out G.A. Brooks book Bioenergetics and Its Application, by far the best exercise physiology
book I've read. A lot of this stuff is covered in there.
 
The serious bike racers I know are diet freaks. 30% fat? Doubtful. When I hang out with them it's
all carrots, celery (even after workouts!), humus. I recall lots of folks going bonkers for the
hi-carb diet in the 90's, putting a little pesto on their big bowl of noodles, a little smear of
cream cheese on a bagel. Tons of vitamins, supplements. Fastidious diets! Oh well, I guess I read
about Greg eating tons of junk food. So maybe that offsets it.

Andy Coggan wrote:

> Most (Western) cyclists, like most non-cyclists, eat a diet that is roughly 45-50% carbohydrate,
> 30-35% fat, and 15-20% protein - they just eat more of
> it.

--

Jeff Potter [email protected] http://OutYourBackdoor.com -- a friendly ezine of modern
folkways and culture revival...offering a line of alternative books and a world of bikes, boats,
skis...plus shops for great sleeper books, videos and music ...plus nationwide "Off the Beaten Path"
travel forums for local fun, bumperstickers and a new social magnet stickers! ...Holy Smokes!!!
 
Wayne wrote:

> of the substrate. Well, at least I have never heard of someone running out of fat as a
> fuel source.

Not in bike racing, but Ranulph Ffiennes and companion on the walk across the Antarctic continent
encountered this problem. STF
 
warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<040520031254493442%
>
> > You seem to be of the impression that body fat is some type of non-renewable energy sourece.
>
> Never said that. The problem is renewing it when there is already a caloric deficit most days.
> Body fat, in general, is decreasing so how long can you rely on it?
>

You keep changing your tune when people find flaws in your argument. You started off saying pros
need to eat fats because they might not get enough carbs during the race or enough fat on their
body. You suggested it was important to eat fats on the bike in your second post of this thread.

You never said anything about calorie defecits or mutli-day events until someone else brought it up
or it was a convenient way to defend earlier statements.

Are you now saying eating fats is an efficient way to avoid a calorie defecit ? If so why can't that
be eaten on the bike ?

>
> > Given the body's ability to store far more energy as fat than as glycogen, it is easy to store
> > more than enough fat for each leg of a multi-day endurance events,
>
> They could, but should they? Too much stored fat going into the event will hurt them on the
> climbs. Why do they lose muscle during the event?
>
If the energy balance is neutral the amount of fat on a person shouldn't change too much over the
course of the event. I'm still not sure what this has to do with actually eating fats, other than
it's a dense source of calories.

-Amit
 
In article <[email protected]>, Amit <[email protected]> wrote:

> warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<040520031254493442%
> >
> > > You seem to be of the impression that body fat is some type of non-renewable energy sourece.
> >
> > Never said that. The problem is renewing it when there is already a caloric deficit most days.
> > Body fat, in general, is decreasing so how long can you rely on it?
> >
>
> You keep changing your tune when people find flaws in your argument. You started off saying pros
> need to eat fats because they might not get enough carbs during the race or enough fat on their
> body. You suggested it was important to eat fats on the bike in your second post of this thread.
>
> You never said anything about calorie defecits or mutli-day events until someone else brought it
> up or it was a convenient way to defend earlier statements.

> Are you now saying eating fats is an efficient way to avoid a calorie defecit ? If so why can't
> that be eaten on the bike ?

Amit, look at these two statements...

> You started off saying pros need to eat fats because they might not get enough carbs during the
> race or enough fat on their body. You suggested it was important to eat fats on the bike in your
> second post of this thread.

> Are you now saying eating fats is an efficient way to avoid a calorie defecit ? If so why can't
> that be eaten on the bike ?

Your statement (second one) is answered by mine (first one). No inconsistency.

-WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Of course they can access but the supply is so limited thay can't rely on it for more than a
> > few days.
>
> Dude, Are we talking about pros that are racing while fasting? Their fat supply that "is so
> limited" is nonetheless replaceable.

How many calories used each day and how many calories consumed each day? What is happening to their
fat stores?

> > > What makes you think fat stores are less replaceable than glycogen stores?
> >
> > I never said that.
>
> Then why do you keeping talking as if "the pros" have this limited supply that they are in grave
> danger of exhausting.

Dude, a guy goes in with 3-5% bodyfat and he's using some of that every day that is not getting
entirely replaced by food.

> > That could be a reason. The shift you speak of is not the reason told to me. Perhaps because
> > it's not as important as needing to be efficient at using fat for fuel because that may be
> > (almost) all that is available during the finale.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by efficient? Pros aren't anymore efficient at burning fat (they don't
> harvest more ATP per gram of lipid than you or I). They have a greater oxidative capacity, so at
> any given power output, they are doing more of that work by oxidating fats or oxidizing the
> products of glycolysis resulting in glycogen sparing.

Yes, that is being efficient.
>
> Let's just think about this for a second, lets say early in a race, a guy eats a ham and cheese
> sandwhich every hour (first 3 hours). What's that going to contain, a couple hundred grams of fat
> at most? Compared to the 1000's of grams of fat that even a small, very lean pro has stored that's
> a drop in the bucket.

Do you think it is easier to use recently-eaten fat for fuel or bodyfat for fuel?

> Check out G.A. Brooks book Bioenergetics and Its Application, by far the best exercise physiology
> book I've read. A lot of this stuff is covered in there.

I have a better source. I'll ask him about this on Wednesday if we have time.

-WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:040520031250146881%[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > They mostly rely on bodyfat as fuel. Ask your coach.
> >
> > On Wednesday I'll try to remember to ask him if your statement is true.
>
>
>
> Yes, do that.
>
>
> Hampsten used to do long low-intensity rides in the winter to tune his fat burning capabilities.

So? Isn't part of the reason he did this is so he can use fat during races?

-WG
 
"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:040520032132049571%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:040520031250146881%[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > They mostly rely on bodyfat as fuel. Ask your coach.
> > >
> > > On Wednesday I'll try to remember to ask him if your statement is
true.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, do that.
> >
> >
> > Hampsten used to do long low-intensity rides in the winter to tune his
fat
> > burning capabilities.
>
> So? Isn't part of the reason he did this is so he can use fat during races?

Ya.

which contradicts your statement:

> Still wanna go with the idea of a pro relying on bodyfat for some fuel?
 
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean by efficient? Pros aren't anymore efficient at burning fat (they
> > don't harvest more ATP per gram of lipid than you or I). They have a greater oxidative capacity,
> > so at any given power output, they are doing more of that work by oxidating fats or oxidizing
> > the products of glycolysis resulting in glycogen sparing.
>
> Yes, that is being efficient.

No, it's not. I think you just redefined the word efficient.

> Do you think it is easier to use recently-eaten fat for fuel or bodyfat for fuel?

I think recently eaten food can provide the lipid for oxidation and may even provide a glycogen/body
fat sparing effect, as I said in an earlier post. BUT, that doesn't mean you can eat and digest
enough fat during a race to supply the entire fat substrate required during a 6 hour bike race
(especially an intense one-day race or mountainous stage in a stage race).

Need I remind you of your silly statement "Still wanna go with the idea of a pro relying on bodyfat
for some fuel?"

No where did I say that exogenous fat couldn't be used as a fuel source just that is unreasonable to
expect it to be the only source of fat for oxidation.

> > Check out G.A. Brooks book Bioenergetics and Its Application, by far the best exercise
> > physiology book I've read. A lot of this stuff is covered in there.
>
> I have a better source. I'll ask him about this on Wednesday if we have time.

I'm beginning to think this is the most brilliant troll posting ever. You think a coach will know
more about the energetics of exercise then one of the leading scientists in the field? Just because
somebody is competent in training people to ride a bike, in no way implies they even have even a
basic understanding of exercise physiology. You'd think that would be the case, but you can often
read statements by some of the leading coaches (Eddy B., Carmichael, Crawford) that are patently
false regarding physiology.

When your coach gives you his answer, ask him how he knows what he claims to know?

Wayne
 
In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Check out G.A. Brooks book Bioenergetics and Its Application, by far the best exercise
> > > physiology book I've read. A lot of this stuff is covered in there.
> >
> > I have a better source. I'll ask him about this on Wednesday if we have time.
>
> I'm beginning to think this is the most brilliant troll posting ever. You think a coach will know
> more about the energetics of exercise then one of the leading scientists in the field?

Nothing wrong with your book, just that there are some people who know more about some aspects of
the physiology of bike racing than you'll find in books.

> Just because somebody is competent in training people to ride a bike, in no way implies they even
> have even a basic understanding of exercise physiology. You'd think that would be the case, but
> you can often read statements by some of the leading coaches (Eddy B., Carmichael, Crawford) that
> are patently false regarding physiology.

Carmichael and Crawford? Not even close.
>
> When your coach gives you his answer, ask him how he knows what he claims to know?

Mapei paid him to know.

-WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:

> > >
> > > I'm not sure what you mean by efficient? Pros aren't anymore efficient at burning fat (they
> > > don't harvest more ATP per gram of lipid than you or I). They have a greater oxidative
> > > capacity, so at any given power output, they are doing more of that work by oxidating fats or
> > > oxidizing the products of glycolysis resulting in glycogen sparing.
> >
> > Yes, that is being efficient.
>
> No, it's not. I think you just redefined the word efficient.

What is the word you would use in place of efficient?
>
> > Do you think it is easier to use recently-eaten fat for fuel or bodyfat for fuel?
>
> I think recently eaten food can provide the lipid for oxidation and may even provide a
> glycogen/body fat sparing effect, as I said in an earlier post.

Can you answer my question?

> Need I remind you of your silly statement "Still wanna go with the idea of a pro relying on
> bodyfat for some fuel?"
>
> No where did I say that exogenous fat couldn't be used as a fuel source just that is unreasonable
> to expect it to be the only source of fat for oxidation.

I should have been more specific about how much would come from bodyfat and how much would come from
fat still in the digestive system.
>
> > > Check out G.A. Brooks book Bioenergetics and Its Application, by far the best exercise
> > > physiology book I've read. A lot of this stuff is covered in there.
> >
> > I have a better source. I'll ask him about this on Wednesday if we have time.
>
> I'm beginning to think this is the most brilliant troll posting ever. You think a coach will know
> more about the energetics of exercise then one of the leading scientists in the field?

This topic is not too complex, but the best cycling coaches/doctors know things about the physiology
of bike racing that aren't in books. I doubt there's anything wrong with your source, but maybe it
doesn't provide an answer that is as specific or complete.

> Just because somebody is competent in training people to ride a bike, in no way implies they even
> have even a basic understanding of exercise physiology. You'd think that would be the case, but
> you can often read statements by some of the leading coaches (Eddy B., Carmichael, Crawford) that
> are patently false regarding physiology.

Those guys aren't even close. At least Eddy B. has some relevant experience.

> When your coach gives you his answer, ask him how he knows what he claims to know?

Riders that paid him for what he knows have won World Cup races and the Giro.

-WG
 
> > > > I'm not sure what you mean by efficient? Pros aren't anymore efficient at burning fat (they
> > > > don't harvest more ATP per gram of lipid than you or I). They have a greater oxidative
> > > > capacity, so at any given power output, they are doing more of that work by oxidating fats
> > > > or oxidizing the products of glycolysis resulting in glycogen sparing.
> > >
> > > Yes, that is being efficient.
> >
> > No, it's not. I think you just redefined the word efficient.
>
> What is the word you would use in place of efficient?

I would use the word capacity. Pros have a greater capacity to oxidize (they can oxidize more fat
per unit of time). Efficiency implies getting more out of the same amount or doing more with less.

> >
> > > Do you think it is easier to use recently-eaten fat for fuel or bodyfat for fuel?
> >
> > I think recently eaten food can provide the lipid for oxidation and may even provide a
> > glycogen/body fat sparing effect, as I said in an earlier post.
>
> Can you answer my question?
O.K. Clearly you can only digest so many calories during exercise (the number I've seen is around
300 calories per hour of carbs, which are much more readily digested than fats) at typical
competition intensities. I don't believe the exercising body has any problem getting fat from
adipose tissue yet it certainly has a problem emptying food from the stomach and digesting it
during exercise. So, I can't see anyway someone could possible digest enough fat during
exercise to cover what they're burning. On top of that, if you're eating a bunch of fat, you're
going to compromise carb absorption and even when your maximizing this your still usually
running a net loss of glycogen stores (that is, you can't absorb enough carbs to off-set what
you're burning) unless you're really fit and exercising at a very low intensity.
>
> > Need I remind you of your silly statement "Still wanna go with the idea of a pro relying on
> > bodyfat for some fuel?"
> >
> > No where did I say that exogenous fat couldn't be used as a fuel source just that is
> > unreasonable to expect it to be the only source of fat for oxidation.
>
> I should have been more specific about how much would come from bodyfat and how much would come
> from fat still in the digestive system.
> >
> > > > Check out G.A. Brooks book Bioenergetics and Its Application, by far the best exercise
> > > > physiology book I've read. A lot of this stuff is covered in there.
> > >
> > > I have a better source. I'll ask him about this on Wednesday if we have time.
> >
> > I'm beginning to think this is the most brilliant troll posting ever. You think a coach will
> > know more about the energetics of exercise then one of the leading scientists in the field?
>
> This topic is not too complex, but the best cycling coaches/doctors know things about the
> physiology of bike racing that aren't in books. I doubt there's anything wrong with your source,
> but maybe it doesn't provide an answer that is as specific or complete.
>
> > Just because somebody is competent in training people to ride a bike, in no way implies they
> > even have even a basic understanding of exercise physiology. You'd think that would be the case,
> > but you can often read statements by some of the leading coaches (Eddy B., Carmichael, Crawford)
> > that are patently false regarding physiology.
>
> Those guys aren't even close. At least Eddy B. has some relevant experience.
>
> > When your coach gives you his answer, ask him how he knows what he claims to know?
>
> Riders that paid him for what he knows have won World Cup races and the Giro.

Again, just ask how he knows what he claims. Which if I remember from your the earlier posts, is
that pros can't access their body fat for oxidation because they're so lean the supply is limited
and therefore must eat all (even most) of the fat they burn during a race.

Wayne
 
In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:

> > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by efficient? Pros aren't anymore efficient at burning fat
> > > > > (they don't harvest more ATP per gram of lipid than you or I). They have a greater
> > > > > oxidative capacity, so at any given power output, they are doing more of that work by
> > > > > oxidating fats or oxidizing the products of glycolysis resulting in glycogen sparing.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, that is being efficient.
> > >
> > > No, it's not. I think you just redefined the word efficient.
> >
> > What is the word you would use in place of efficient?
>
> I would use the word capacity. Pros have a greater capacity to oxidize (they can oxidize more fat
> per unit of time). Efficiency implies getting more out of the same amount or doing more with less.

They can produce more watts of power per gram of fat. That is efficiency, right?

> I don't believe the exercising body has any problem getting fat from adipose tissue yet it
> certainly has a problem emptying food from the stomach and digesting it during exercise.

I'll ask him if there is a difference or not. Perhaps the reason they eat fat is because the energy
is released more slowly and this can be a good thing.

> ...On top of that, if you're eating a bunch of fat, you're going to compromise carb absorption

If this is true then why do you think pros eat fat during races instead of just carbs with a
little protein?

> and even when your maximizing this your still usually running a net loss of glycogen stores (that
> is, you can't absorb enough carbs to off-set what you're burning) unless you're really fit and
> exercising at a very low intensity.

They are really fit and exercising at a low intensity most of the race (in terms of time). This gets
back to what I (my coach told me) orginally said. The pros' better aerobic capacity/efficiency
allows them to do more work using fat for fuel and this can be especially important in races when
the team cars can't get to the riders.

> > Riders that paid him for what he knows have won World Cup races and the Giro.
>
> Again, just ask how he knows what he claims. Which if I remember from your the earlier posts, is
> that pros can't access their body fat for oxidation because they're so lean the supply is limited
> and therefore must eat all (even most) of the fat they burn during a race.

That's not what he said and I did not mean to imply that they can't access bodyfat for fuel. I
should have been more specific and said they don't want to rely on bodyfat for fuel because this may
not be as readily available as eaten fat (if it was why would they eat fat?) and the small amount of
bodyfat on a pro is limited to an extent they can't rely on it over a period of a stage race or
multiple single day races during a week or three.
 
warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<040520032129149349%[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, Amit
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<040520031254493442%
> > >
> > > > You seem to be of the impression that body fat is some type of non-renewable energy sourece.
> > >
> > > Never said that. The problem is renewing it when there is already a caloric deficit most days.
> > > Body fat, in general, is decreasing so how long can you rely on it?
> > >
> >
> > You keep changing your tune when people find flaws in your argument. You started off saying pros
> > need to eat fats because they might not get enough carbs during the race or enough fat on their
> > body. You suggested it was important to eat fats on the bike in your second post of this thread.
> >
> > You never said anything about calorie defecits or mutli-day events until someone else brought it
> > up or it was a convenient way to defend earlier statements.
>
> > Are you now saying eating fats is an efficient way to avoid a calorie defecit ? If so why can't
> > that be eaten on the bike ?
>
> Amit, look at these two statements...
>
> > You started off saying pros need to eat fats because they might not get enough carbs during the
> > race or enough fat on their body. You suggested it was important to eat fats on the bike in your
> > second post of this thread.
>
> > Are you now saying eating fats is an efficient way to avoid a calorie defecit ? If so why can't
> > that be eaten on the bike ?
>
> Your statement (second one) is answered by mine (first one). No inconsistency.
>

Sorry, I meant _off_ the bike.

-Amit
 
I don't mean to mindlessly bend to authority, but doesn't the fact that at least Armstrong (based on
Carmichael interview) and I assume many other top level pro's lift weights regularly?

I don't they do stuff too much at that level out of pure superstition.

As someone who has published research using quantitative methods, I am aware that it is _extremely_
hard to truly and totally isolate variables so you know what is causing what in an extremely complex
system like a self-aware athlete subject to a huge number ( 1000s? tens of 1000s?) of virtually
untrackable variables AND THEIR INTERACTIONS - like variations in ambient temperature over the
courses of the training days, psychological stressors, precise times of day when specific nutrients
are ingested .

One thing I've found interesting re: weight lifting is that a study I read of that claimed that
weight lifting alone beats aerobics plus weight lifting for losing body fat. If anybody knows exact
citation I would appreciate it.

IN it they reported that weight lifting alone built muscle mass and caused a lot of fat loss. The
aerobics plus weight lifting group actually lost a bit of musscle mass and lost a _smaller_
amount of fat.

Of course, pro bike racers couldn't take a whole lot of time off from aerobic training just to lose
fat( even if they needed to) .

Right now i'm on a program to lose lard: low calories, high protein, weight s 2x /week; hard riding
only 1x / week.

I'm afraid there's no way to lose 15- 20 lbs without losing _some_strength ( maybe it's possible, I
just don't know how). My hope is to lose the lard, then build strength back up without adding lard.
 
So what's the most complete, ultimate source of training physiology knowledge? If there ever can be
any single body of knowledge that is supreme...

warren <[email protected]> wrote:
: This topic is not too complex, but the best cycling coaches/doctors know things about the
: physiology of bike racing that aren't in books. I

Do you mean that coaches or doctors have more detailed and accurate knowledge in this matter than
researchers? Can you get better information by asking a coach than by reading research journals? If
the coaches know something, maybe researchers don't put that to journals because every coach knows
it already...

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi
 
[email protected] (remove the polite word to reply) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> I don't mean to mindlessly bend to authority, but doesn't the fact that at least Armstrong (based
> on Carmichael interview) and I assume many other top level pro's lift weights regularly?

They don't do it regularly, the ones that do it, I believe, only do it for a few months during the
off-season. You'll also notice that often they, or coaches recommendations, are doing high-reps (>12
or so) that have been shown to produce almost no muscle hypertrophy.

> As someone who has published research using quantitative methods, I am aware that it is
> _extremely_ hard to truly and totally isolate variables so you know what is causing what in an
> extremely complex system like a self-aware athlete subject to a huge number ( 1000s? tens of
> 1000s?) of virtually untrackable variables AND THEIR INTERACTIONS - like variations in ambient
> temperature over the courses of the training days, psychological stressors, precise times of day
> when specific nutrients are ingested .
>
> One thing I've found interesting re: weight lifting is that a study I read of that claimed that
> weight lifting alone beats aerobics plus weight lifting for losing body fat. If anybody knows
> exact citation I would appreciate it.
>
> IN it they reported that weight lifting alone built muscle mass and caused a lot of fat loss. The
> aerobics plus weight lifting group actually lost a bit of musscle mass and lost a _smaller_
> amount of fat.
>
> Of course, pro bike racers couldn't take a whole lot of time off from aerobic training just to
> lose fat( even if they needed to).

Don't need to, I assure you you can lose fat by riding more and restricting calorie intake.
>
> Right now i'm on a program to lose lard: low calories, high protein, weight s 2x /week; hard
> riding only 1x / week.
>
> I'm afraid there's no way to lose 15- 20 lbs without losing _some_strength ( maybe it's
> possible, I just don't know how). My hope is to lose the lard, then build strength back up
> without adding lard.

Here's some anecdotal evidence. We regularly test maximum quadriceps strength in the lab I work in.
Since the beginning of the year I've loss about 15 pounds, yet my maximum quadriceps strength has
actually increased by about 5 or 10%. I haven't touched a weight in years. I'd suspect if we were
testing some muscle that I don't stress highly on a regular basis it's probably gotten weaker. The
human body is amazingly adaptive as is muscle, don't use it, it will atrophy, use it and it will be
maintained, maybe even increase in size. Clearly I've been running a negative calorie balance for
several months, but the (limited) muscles I use regularly appear to not atrophied.
 
> If this is true then why do you think pros eat fat during races instead of just carbs with a
> little protein?

I put forward a very plausible explanation in an earlier post.
> > and even when your maximizing this your still usually running a net loss of glycogen stores
> > (that is, you can't absorb enough carbs to off-set what you're burning) unless you're really fit
> > and exercising at a very low intensity.
>
> They are really fit and exercising at a low intensity most of the race (in terms of time). This
> gets back to what I (my coach told me) orginally said. The pros' better aerobic
> capacity/efficiency allows them to do more work using fat for fuel and this can be especially
> important in races when the team cars can't get to the riders.

I agree with this. That's what allows them to eat some fats (although again i think the assertion
that they consume enough fats during a race to cover all, most, even the majority of their fat
expenditure is not plausible) early in a race. Don't they typically switch to pure carbs for the
latter part of races when one would suspect intensities are going to be high, compromising
digestion, and placing a premium on off-setting glycogen loss through exogenous carbs?

> That's not what he said and I did not mean to imply that they can't access bodyfat for fuel. I
> should have been more specific and said they don't want to rely on bodyfat for fuel because this
> may not be as readily available as eaten fat (if it was why would they eat fat?) and the small
> amount of bodyfat on a pro is limited to an extent they can't rely on it over a period of a stage
> race or multiple single day races during a week or three.

O.K. that's a different story. Maybe, maybe not? I provided a plausible explanation as to why it may
be beneficial to consume some fats early in a race (even a single-day race, when racing later
in the week isn't an issue). Although again, "readily available" is hard to say, you have to
balance the fact that on hand you have 1000's upon 1000's of calories of body fat stored vs.
being able to adequately digest the eaten fats. I suspect that although eating fats would
off-set the loss of stored body fats, that simply digesting the amount of fat necessary (even
at very low exercise intensities) would be very difficult to completely supply the substrate
for fat oxidation, and not the least bit possible when going moderately hard or very hard.
 
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