Weight Lifting with Training.

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training.

Why ?

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training.

Why ?

Because it's true.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Daryl said:

"Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training.

Why ?

Because it's true.

Why ?

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
many reps etc. Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?

Thanks Gary

I would recommend doing the strength training but avoid any and all
muscle building products. First of all many are a waste of money.
Second, unless you run the 100m or 200m you don't want to get to big
and the purpose behind those protein products is for you to get big.

John

runsrealfast said:

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
many reps etc. Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?

Thanks Gary

I would recommend doing the strength training but avoid any and all
muscle building products. First of all many are a waste of money.
Second, unless you run the 100m or 200m you don't want to get to big
and the purpose behind those protein products is for you to get big.

Some questions:

Do you know what creatine is and why it is used ? (if not, why are you giving
advice about it ?)

Is the fact that many products are a "waste of money" a sound basis for not
using any supplements ?

What are your criteria for deciding whether or not a supplement is a "muscle
building product" ?

Are you aware that "muscle building" substances ranging from protein
supplements all the way up to various steroids are used by endurance athletes
as recovery aids ?

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
many reps etc. Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?

Thanks Gary

Hi, Gary. Just for reference, I was 5'5" and maybe 120 lbs. in wet
clothes as a Junior -- 132.5 lbs this morning and 5'7" at age 49.

When I'm being good I do a 30 minute core-and-weights workout three
times a week. (I haven't been good lately, as my training weeks
show). I only do the arm weights (two-lb. dumbell in each hand, 3
sets of ten, sets separated by core exercises) -- on the advice of my
doctor because I have had joint "issues" in one shoulder. Bones and
connective tissues remodel along lines of stress -- and if you don't
stress 'em they get kinda old and soft.

I do most of the arm weights movements on this page:
http://tinyurl.com/ypx2gg
But I don't do the elastic band stuff.

As I said, the weights are really for arm/shoulder bone health. As
far as running is concerned, I think core conditioning has helped a
lot.

The "core" exercises I do are "bridges" and hip rotations. I got
these originally from library books but this describes bridges:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/morgan3.htm
:- Prone Bridge (Bows and Toes)
:- In a prone position on a floor mat, the athlete balances on the tips of
:- toes and elbows while attempting to maintain a straight line from
:- heels to head. This exercise focuses on both the anterior and
:- posterior muscle groups of the trunk and pelvis.
:-
:- Lateral Bridge (Bridge Right and Bridge Left)
:- In a sideways posture on a floor mat, the athlete balances on one
:- elbow and the side of one foot while attempting to keep the body
:- aligned in a straight line. This exercise focuses on the abdominal
:- obliques and transversus abdominus. Also, the lateral bridge teaches
:- the athlete how to sense the proper pelvic position.
:-
:- Supine Bridge
:- In a supine posture on a floor mat, the athlete raises the hips so that
:- only the head, shoulders, and feet are touching the mat. The supine
:- bridge focuses on the gluteal muscles. Stronger glutes help maintain
:- pelvic control, which is important for movements that require hip
:- extension.

The other one I do is "crossovers". I lie on my back on the floor
(aaah...) with knees up /\__0 and arms straight out to the
sides like a " T ". Keeping shoulders on the floor, turn knees/hips
to the left, center, right, center. To make it harder, first lift
feet off the floor till shins are parallel to the floor, and keep the
calf-and-thighs in that position to the left, center, right, center...
I'd say leave the creatine, "Muscle Milk", etc. to the Mr. Universe
wannabe's. There is no advantage to "bulking up" and it can be a
disadvantage later in life.

Good luck!
--
Daniel ( [email hidden] )

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Elflord said:

runsrealfast said:

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
many reps etc. Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks Gary

Quoted message said:

I would recommend doing the strength training but avoid any and all
muscle building products. First of all many are a waste of money.
Second, unless you run the 100m or 200m you don't want to get to big
and the purpose behind those protein products is for you to get big.

Some questions:

Do you know what creatine is and why it is used ? (if not, why are you giving
advice about it ?)

Yes I do. Also being an accomplished basketball player and having done
some coaching I know exactly what athletes use it for. Distance
runners should avoid these type of products

Quoted message said:

Is the fact that many products are a "waste of money" a sound basis for not
using any supplements ?

I wasn't referring to supplements. Remember I only said body building
products. There is a difference.

Quoted message said:

What are your criteria for deciding whether or not a supplement is a "muscle
building product" ?

Go to GNC and its pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Are you aware that "muscle building" substances ranging from protein
supplements all the way up to various steroids are used by endurance athletes
as recovery aids ?

again the difference between supplements and body building products.

runsrealfast said:

Elflord said:

Do you know what creatine is and why it is used ? (if not, why are you giving
advice about it ?)

Yes I do. Also being an accomplished basketball player and having done
some coaching I know exactly what athletes use it for. Distance
runners should avoid these type of products

I'm not critiquing your basketball skills, and as far as I know, no formal
qualifications are required to do "some coaching", so I don't really understand
the relevance of this.

The question you haven't provided a satisfactory response to, is, what do you
mean by "these type of products" ? What is creatine, and why is it used ? And
why should endurance athletes avoid it ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is the fact that many products are a "waste of money" a sound basis for not
using any supplements ?

I wasn't referring to supplements. Remember I only said body building
products. There is a difference.

I don't understand what you mean by "bodybuilding products", because it is not
a technical or scientific term. Any supplement taken by bodybuilders, including
many of those that are also used by endurance athletes, could be called a
"bodybuilding product". But you obviously have something more specific in mind.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What are your criteria for deciding whether or not a supplement is a "muscle
building product" ?

Go to GNC and its pretty clear.

It sounds like you are saying that your criterion is that a superficial
inspection of the product label makes it look like the product is marketted
towards bodybuilders. But I believe you can do better than this, so, try again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you aware that "muscle building" substances ranging from protein
supplements all the way up to various steroids are used by endurance athletes
as recovery aids ?

again the difference between supplements and body building products.

The only definition of "bodybuilding products" I'm aware of, are products
that bodybuilders use. But many of these products are also useful for endurance
athletes.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

On May 11, 11:14 am, Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote:

re-read my original post, take it in context and then reply. I think
if you actually think and then respond you will comprehend what i was
trying to say to the guy. Your reading into this way to much.

one other point. You say that many endurance athletes the question I
ask you is do they use it to "supplement" or to body build. This
poster is wanting to use it in conjunction with weight lifting. If he
walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.

John

runsrealfast said:

On May 11, 11:14 am, Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote:

re-read my original post, take it in context and then reply. I think

I did. You said "avoid any and all muscle building products".

This could plausibly include products like whey protein (which is primarily
marketted towards bodybuilders). I take whey supplements on a regular basis,
and I'm sure as hell not huge.

Creatine would probably have zero effect either way, unless he's running 800m
or shorter.

Quoted message said:

if you actually think and then respond you will comprehend what i was
trying to say to the guy. Your reading into this way to much.

one other point. You say that many endurance athletes the question I
ask you is do they use it to "supplement" or to body build. This
poster is wanting to use it in conjunction with weight lifting. If he
walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.

I don't agree. A high school kid with distance runners genetics is not going to
bulk up doing a minimal weights routine as cross-training, in conjunction with
high mileage training. Even pro athletes who take various steroids in
conjunction with weight routines are able to do so without "bulking up". The
main reasons they don't bulk up are (1) genetics, (2) they're not training for
hypertrophy, and (3) their primary activity (running high miles) makes bulking
up almost impossible.

He should stay away from supplements that have substantial anabolic effects,
including both illegal steroids, and also legal over the counter "pro-hormones"
like andro, because they are nearly all banned substances.

The others are largely recovery agents, and some, like whey protein are quite
useful. Yet others, like so-called "mass builders" are expensive for what they
are. And some others like creatine aren't known to be useful for endurance
athletes.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
many reps etc.

Why weight training and not running-specific strength training? By
"weight training" I'm assuming you mean something with weights over 20
lb in a gym (vs hand weights used in an assortment of drills), usually
with feet planted side-by-side on floor, relatively speaking (lunges are
an exception). Strength training is usually recommended before
plyometrics and many people have found that beneficial to their running,
esp. on hills.

You should probably have a knowledgeable (in strength for running, not
body building) person show you how to do the lifts, if you go that way.
But you should also consider running-specific strength work, IMHO. And
it's really hard to beat hills if you live near mountains or even some
big hills.

I agree with Daniel's suggestions of core work, and there's a gajillion
ways of doing core. (I think the prone and lateral bridges he refers to
are sometimes called "planks" since there's no arch.)

Quoted message said:

Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?

I'll leave the chemical discussion to others, but you might google for
"creatine" in some medical-type pages (as opposed to
commercial-products-to-sell type pages for information.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

In article <[email hidden]>,

runsrealfast said:

If he
walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.

With all due respect, that has not been my experience.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - [email hidden]

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Elflord said:

Even pro athletes who take various steroids in
conjunction with weight routines are able to do so without "bulking up".

lol. You must be a lawyer for Barry Bonds!

John

Elflord said:

runsrealfast said:

On May 11, 11:14 am, Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

re-read my original post, take it in context and then reply. I think

I did. You said "avoid any and all muscle building products".

This could plausibly include products like whey protein (which is primarily
marketted towards bodybuilders). I take whey supplements on a regular basis,
and I'm sure as hell not huge.

Creatine would probably have zero effect either way, unless he's running 800m
or shorter.

Quoted message said:

if you actually think and then respond you will comprehend what i was
trying to say to the guy. Your reading into this way to much.

Quoted message said:

one other point. You say that many endurance athletes the question I
ask you is do they use it to "supplement" or to body build. This
poster is wanting to use it in conjunction with weight lifting. If he
walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.

I don't agree. A high school kid with distance runners genetics is not going to
bulk up doing a minimal weights routine as cross-training, in conjunction with
high mileage training. Even pro athletes who take various steroids in
conjunction with weight routines are able to do so without "bulking up". The
main reasons they don't bulk up are (1) genetics, (2) they're not training for
hypertrophy, and (3) their primary activity (running high miles) makes bulking
up almost impossible.

He should stay away from supplements that have substantial anabolic effects,
including both illegal steroids, and also legal over the counter "pro-hormones"
like andro, because they are nearly all banned substances.

The others are largely recovery agents, and some, like whey protein are quite
useful. Yet others, like so-called "mass builders" are expensive for what they
are. And some others like creatine aren't known to be useful for endurance
athletes.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

I find your argument funny, because a few months ago, we had a pretty
healthy discussion about weight training and it was the consensuse of
the group (which I was not a part of) that runners don't need to do
any weight training. Now we are saying this guy should not only weight
training but take a supplement to go along with it (not to mention he
is only 16 and his body is most likley still growing). The criss cross
doesn't make sense.

However, like I was saying everything should be taken in context. If
this were a 28 yr old who was working on running ultra's my advise
would be different.

(Melinda Shore) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

runsrealfast said:

If he
walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.

With all due respect, that has not been my experience.

I would agree, men and women are treated differently in most gyms.
Women want to tone while men want to bulk up and be riped.

John

runsrealfast said:

I find your argument funny, because a few months ago, we had a pretty
healthy discussion about weight training and it was the consensuse of
the group (which I was not a part of) that runners don't need to do
any weight training.

I agree that runners don't need to do weight training.

I don't agree that runners will automatically bulk up because they take a
supplement that is marketted towards bodybuilders.

Quoted message said:

Now we are saying this guy should not only weight
training but take a supplement to go along with it

I don't think anyone has suggested this. Note that I didn't advise him to
weight train. Some posters have suggested core work and plyometrics. I don't
strongly recommend this, but I am not against it either.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

However, like I was saying everything should be taken in context. If

You talk as though you have the gist right and I am going out of my way to
trip you up on the details. I am not disagreeing on minor details though --
I think you're simply a long way off the mark in your views on what these
supplements do.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Elflord said:

I think you're simply a long way off the mark in your views on what these
supplements do.

You can think that but I am just speaking from real life observations
I have made.

John

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gary said:

I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
many reps etc. Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?

Why do you think you need to do weight training?
(Straight question, not rhetorical. There are reasons why you might
have a need for it. Then again, a lot of folks get sucked in for
no good reason.)

Creatine was oft-mentioned in the group here when I first arrived.
To the extent it was mentioned, it was mentioned for power/speed -- not
endurance. iow, to make you faster, not to be able to run farther.
As I recall the discussion, such as it was, there was little research
support (even from the manufacturers) for creatine use by distance
runners, and what little there was, came from the manufacturers.

In your pursuit to compete with the elite, you're still early stages.
You have a ton to gain by straightforward taking care of your health
(eating a good diet, getting good sleep, perhaps some general purpose
cross-training, which might include weights) and putting in a steady
mileage base. If you hit a hard ceiling on your performances, and it's
sub-elite, _then_ would be the time to look in to ground wasp (which
was advertised a while back too) and assorted other supplements or
exotica.

Between one guesstimator and another, just maturing in good health
and with continued sustained mileage base should be good enough to
get you under 10 for the 2 mile (in your early 20s, maybe not next
year). That's not elite, but it sure puts you out on the fast tail
of the nonelite. Note: SWAG involved, not precision formulae (even
to the limited extent that precision could be involved).

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

On May 11, 1:16 pm, Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote:

Sorry I missed posting this on my last one...

Quoted message said:

I agree that runners don't need to do weight training.

I don't agree that runners will automatically bulk up because they take a
supplement

what about weight training in combination of supplements? I'm curious
of your opinion on that. (you know how I feel).

John