weight lifting and LC?

"Mark McArthey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet before
in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program detailed by Lyle
McDonald (as can be seen in misc.fitness.weights). Anyway, now that I'm
doing straight LC I've found that my stamina is way down. My muscles
burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy weights.

It is very difficult to build muscle while you are dieting to lose
weight. You may be better off to adjust your goal to maintaining muscle mass
until you have reached goal weight.

Quoted message said:

It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about using Vanadyl
Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is this true, or still recommended?

Vanadyl Sulfate aids in glucose uptake by mimicking insulin (so they
claim). If this is true then your blood glucose levels may dip down too low
while working out with no steady supply from carbs. Many of these
supplements give minimal benefit in relation to money spent. If they
actually worked, then they would be more like drugs, and should not be taken
anyway. I wouldn't take more than just a multi-vitamin.

Quoted message said:

Any other ideas?

If you are working out alot, you can increase your carb levels, or go
back to CKD. Or, lose the weight first and then worry about increasing
poundage on the bar when your overall calories will not be in deficit.
Tom
210/180/180

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any help,
Mark

260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005

Mark McArthey wrote:
:: As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet
:: before in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program
:: detailed by Lyle McDonald (as can be seen in misc.fitness.weights).
:: Anyway, now that I'm doing straight LC I've found that my stamina is
:: way down. My muscles burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the
:: reps with heavy weights. It's been a while, but I recall seeing
:: something about using Vanadyl Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is
:: this true, or still recommended? Any other ideas?

What's your daily carb level? You can always up it until training improves.
Some folks aren't as naturally efficient at burning fat and sparing glucose
as others. And, it takes time to switch over and fully adapt, too, so more
time may be needed. finally, you can always take some amount of additional
carbs before/after your weight training sessions (known as a TKD).

Mark McArthey said:

As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet

before

Quoted message said:

in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program detailed by

Lyle

Quoted message said:

McDonald (as can be seen in misc.fitness.weights). Anyway, now that

I'm

Quoted message said:

doing straight LC I've found that my stamina is way down. My muscles

Quoted message said:

burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy weights.
It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about using Vanadyl
Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is this true, or still

recommended?

Quoted message said:

Any other ideas?
Thanks for any help,
Mark

260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005

Are you trying to bulk or cut?
What's your bodyfat?
Your 260/240/200 signifies a substantial cut is in order. Straight LC
with 1gm protein per pound bodyweight ought to provide a good baseline
for a Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet. 40 pounds to lose? If your
shooting for 200 lbs all bulked-up you'll need to overshoot your target
on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs.
Is that what you want to do?

warehouse wrote:
:: Mark McArthey wrote:
::: As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet
::: before in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program
::: detailed by Lyle McDonald (as can be seen in misc.fitness.weights).
::: Anyway, now that I'm doing straight LC I've found that my stamina
::: is way down. My muscles
::
::: burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy weights.
::: It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about using Vanadyl
::: Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is this true, or still
::: recommended? Any other ideas?
::: Thanks for any help,
::: Mark
:::
::: 260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005
::
:: Are you trying to bulk or cut?
:: What's your bodyfat?
:: Your 260/240/200 signifies a substantial cut is in order. Straight
:: LC with 1gm protein per pound bodyweight ought to provide a good
:: baseline for a Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet. 40 pounds to
:: lose? If your shooting for 200 lbs all bulked-up you'll need to
:: overshoot your target on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs.
:: Is that what you want to do?

You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day? Obviously, he is
trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need to eat protein as if he's
trying to add muscle mass, so he won't need that much protein.

"warehouse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Are you trying to bulk or cut?
What's your bodyfat?
Your 260/240/200 signifies a substantial cut is in order. Straight LC
with 1gm protein per pound bodyweight ought to provide a good baseline
for a Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet. 40 pounds to lose? If your
shooting for 200 lbs all bulked-up you'll need to overshoot your target
on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs.
Is that what you want to do?

Yes. I used to be heavily into weightlifting. A friend and I went to the
gym 4 days a week, for probably 5 years. I'm not so worried about "bulk",
but I would definately like to get "cut"... hence, the weight loss. My
strength is way down, as well, and I'm anxious for improvements in that
area. I worry that I'm limiting my gains since I seem to burn out so much
faster on low-carb. According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal
weight is 190. It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high
school. I can curl much more now than I could ever hope to accomplish then.
In addition, my varsity jacket is much smaller across the shoulders and arm
length. I'm being optimistic that I can reach 200, but I like to set my
goals high. I haven't been in a sub-40 pant size since college. We'll just
have to wait a bit and see, I suppose.
Thanks,
Mark

Roger Zoul said:

warehouse wrote:
:: Mark McArthey wrote:
::: As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet
::: before in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program
::: detailed by Lyle McDonald (as can be seen in

misc.fitness.weights).

Quoted message said:

::: Anyway, now that I'm doing straight LC I've found that my stamina
::: is way down. My muscles
::
::: burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy

weights.

Quoted message said:

::: It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about using

Vanadyl

Quoted message said:

::: Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is this true, or still
::: recommended? Any other ideas?
::: Thanks for any help,
::: Mark
:::
::: 260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005
::
:: Are you trying to bulk or cut?
:: What's your bodyfat?
:: Your 260/240/200 signifies a substantial cut is in order.

Straight

Quoted message said:

:: LC with 1gm protein per pound bodyweight ought to provide a good
:: baseline for a Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet. 40 pounds to
:: lose? If your shooting for 200 lbs all bulked-up you'll need to
:: overshoot your target on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs.
:: Is that what you want to do?

You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day? Obviously,

he is

Quoted message said:

trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need to eat protein as

if he's

Quoted message said:

trying to add muscle mass, so he won't need that much protein.

200 g protein per day @ 260 lbs would be 1.75 g/kg and be in the target
range for a strength athlete according to Lemon P. Is increased dietary
protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a
physically active lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews (1996) 54: S169-S175.

Extra protein will be "spill-over" and converted to glucose. The extra
glucose will supplement performance without increasing carbohydrate
intake. Sure protein is more expensive than carbs, but Mark says he
wants to increase stamina. Increasing the blood level amino acids
through over-compensating protein intake will allow protein synthesis
to increase due to his hypertrophic workouts according to Oddoye EA.,
Margen S. Nitrogen balance studies in humans: long-term effect of high
nitrogen intake on nitrogen accretion. J Nutr 109 (3): 363-77

I don't know what his LBM is though and he'll be able to trim the
protein as he loses more weight [read fat].

Roger Zoul said:

You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day?
Obviously, he is trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need
to eat protein as if he's trying to add muscle mass, so he won't
need that much protein.

Isn't protein intake tied to muscle *use*, not desire to gain? If
you're lifting, you're still repairing muscle, and that's what the
extra protein is for.

Also, protein intake is normally tied to LBM, not total weight, which
makes a difference if you're overweight. For a PSMF, 200g/day sounds
about right to me, given his info. I just started one and, for my
135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g protein per day. We'd need to know
his %bf (or at least his height and build) to try to be more accurate.
But even 200g/day is still only 800 kcals/day, which is plenty low
enough for a PSMF cutting cycle.

Werlax said:

My strength is way down, as well, and I'm anxious for improvements
in that area. I worry that I'm limiting my gains since I seem to
burn out so much faster on low-carb.

Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book?

Quoted message said:

According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190.
It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school.

BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively
muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a
better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men).

warehouse wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: warehouse wrote:
::::: Mark McArthey wrote:
:::::: As I've mentioned here before, I had done a cyclic ketogenic diet
:::::: before in conjunction with weight training per a diet/program
:::::: detailed by Lyle McDonald (as can be seen in
:::::: misc.fitness.weights). Anyway, now that I'm doing straight LC
:::::: I've found that my stamina is way down. My muscles
:::::
:::::: burn sooner and it's harder to maintain the reps with heavy
:::::: weights. It's been a while, but I recall seeing something about
:::::: using Vanadyl Sulfate to aid in insulin uptake. Is this true,
:::::: or still recommended? Any other ideas?
:::::: Thanks for any help,
:::::: Mark
::::::
:::::: 260/240/200 since: 18/01/2005
:::::
::::: Are you trying to bulk or cut?
::::: What's your bodyfat?
::::: Your 260/240/200 signifies a substantial cut is in order. Straight
::::: LC with 1gm protein per pound bodyweight ought to provide a good
::::: baseline for a Protein Sparing Modified Fast diet. 40 pounds to
::::: lose? If your shooting for 200 lbs all bulked-up you'll need to
::::: overshoot your target on fat loss and then bulk up to 200 lbs.
::::: Is that what you want to do?
:::
::: You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day?
::: Obviously, he is trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need
::: to eat protein as if he's trying to add muscle mass, so he won't
::: need that much protein.
::
:: 200 g protein per day @ 260 lbs would be 1.75 g/kg and be in the
:: target range for a strength athlete according to Lemon P. Is
:: increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals
:: with a
:: physically active lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews (1996) 54: S169-S175.

Does lifting weights make one a strength athlete? if it does, let me know so
I can refer to myself as such....

::
:: Extra protein will be "spill-over" and converted to glucose. The
:: extra glucose will supplement performance without increasing
:: carbohydrate intake. Sure protein is more expensive than carbs, but
:: Mark says he wants to increase stamina.

He wants to get it back up so he can complete his workouts...there are other
ways to do that. Firstly, he may find that if he continues on LC for a while
longer, he'll be able to complete those workouts just fine. If not, he can
simply up his carb level a bit, or do a TKD. He does need to get sufficient
protein, however.

Increasing the blood level
:: amino acids through over-compensating protein intake will allow
:: protein synthesis to increase due to his hypertrophic workouts
:: according to Oddoye EA., Margen S. Nitrogen balance studies in
:: humans: long-term effect of high nitrogen intake on nitrogen
:: accretion. J Nutr 109 (3): 363-77

🙂 How do you know his workouts will be hypertrophic?

::
:: I don't know what his LBM is though and he'll be able to trim the
:: protein as he loses more weight [read fat].

He can just up his carbs and eat about 150 g of protein a day and be just
fine. It is really hard to eat 200+ g of protein a day. I didn't see where
he said he was a bodybuilder or anything...

DJ Delorie said:

Werlax said:

According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190.
It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school.

BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively
muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a
better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men).

Does that mean that J.ust C.ut DerKoenig needs to gain 5% BF?

There are a few around here that can help him with sumptuous helpings
of pancakes, noodles other "low carb" treats being eaten under the
guise of LC.

😉

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:27:45 -0500, Roger Zoul <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
::: You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day?
::: Obviously, he is trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need
::: to eat protein as if he's trying to add muscle mass, so he won't
::: need that much protein.
::
:: Isn't protein intake tied to muscle *use*, not desire to gain?

It's tied to both...

If
:: you're lifting, you're still repairing muscle, and that's what the
:: extra protein is for.

Come now...DJ.... you do really believe that everytime you lift weights
you're damaging muscle to the extent that if you don't eat that much
protein
you'll lose the muscle? That level of protein intake hard to get eating
real food and while keep kcals low.

::
:: Also, protein intake is normally tied to LBM, not total weight,

Right.

which
:: makes a difference if you're overweight. For a PSMF, 200g/day sounds
:: about right to me, given his info.

What info? Plus, the guy said he is doing straight LC, not a PSMF.

I just started one and, for my
:: 135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g protein per day.

Are you trying to gain?

We'd need to
:: know his %bf (or at least his height and build) to try to be more
:: accurate. But even 200g/day is still only 800 kcals/day, which is
:: plenty low enough for a PSMF cutting cycle.

Is this PSMF even proven?

Aren't all Lyle's ideas just based on research?

--
Bob in CT

Roger Zoul said:

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: "Werlax" <[email hidden]> writes:
::
::: My strength is way down, as well, and I'm anxious for

improvements

Quoted message said:

::: in that area. I worry that I'm limiting my gains since I seem to
::: burn out so much faster on low-carb.
::
:: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book?

Where is this new book?

::
::: According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is

190.

Quoted message said:

::: It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high

school.

Quoted message said:

::
:: BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively
:: muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a
:: better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men).

Lyle's got two new ones:
The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook & A Guide to Flexible Dieting
Haven't read either other than the "galley proof" excerpts from his
bodyrecompsition site.

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
::: You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day?
::: Obviously, he is trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't need
::: to eat protein as if he's trying to add muscle mass, so he won't
::: need that much protein.
::
:: Isn't protein intake tied to muscle *use*, not desire to gain?

It's tied to both...

If
:: you're lifting, you're still repairing muscle, and that's what the
:: extra protein is for.

Come now...DJ.... you do really believe that everytime you lift weights
you're damaging muscle to the extent that if you don't eat that much protein
you'll lose the muscle? That level of protein intake hard to get eating
real food and while keep kcals low.

::
:: Also, protein intake is normally tied to LBM, not total weight,

Right.

which
:: makes a difference if you're overweight. For a PSMF, 200g/day sounds
:: about right to me, given his info.

What info? Plus, the guy said he is doing straight LC, not a PSMF.

I just started one and, for my
:: 135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g protein per day.

Are you trying to gain?

We'd need to
:: know his %bf (or at least his height and build) to try to be more
:: accurate. But even 200g/day is still only 800 kcals/day, which is
:: plenty low enough for a PSMF cutting cycle.

Is this PSMF even proven?

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: "Werlax" <[email hidden]> writes:
::
::: My strength is way down, as well, and I'm anxious for improvements
::: in that area. I worry that I'm limiting my gains since I seem to
::: burn out so much faster on low-carb.
::
:: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book?

Where is this new book?

::
::: According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is 190.
::: It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high school.
::
:: BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively
:: muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a
:: better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men).

Thanks much for all the discussion. I didn't realize that I'd started up
such a hot topic. 😉
I also didn't realize that Lyle had a new book out. I'll head out and see
about getting it.
For the time being, I'll stick to low carb and start doing some evaluation
on my actual counts... calories, grams of protein, etc. I'm not sure what
ratio of fat/protein I'm taking in. I tend to eat lots of vegetables and
lean meats and fish.
Even with the feeling that I don't have the same energy when exercising, I
was going to stay on LC until I'd at least come within 20 lbs or so of my
goal and re-evaluate. For now, though, I'll be sure to verify that I'm
getting enough protein (and not too much fat).
Thanks again,
Mark

Roger Zoul said:

:: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book?

Where is this new book?

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/

It, and another one, were published just last week. The PSMF book is
entitled "The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook: A Scientific Approach to Crash
Dieting". The other one is "A Guide to Flexible Dieting".

Bob M wrote:
:: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:27:45 -0500, Roger Zoul
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: DJ Delorie wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
:::::: You're suggesting he eat 200 to 240 g of protein per day?
:::::: Obviously, he is trying to lose weight....As such, he doesn't
:::::: need to eat protein as if he's trying to add muscle mass, so he
:::::: won't need that much protein.
:::::
::::: Isn't protein intake tied to muscle *use*, not desire to gain?
:::
::: It's tied to both...
:::
::: If
::::: you're lifting, you're still repairing muscle, and that's what the
::::: extra protein is for.
:::
::: Come now...DJ.... you do really believe that everytime you lift
::: weights you're damaging muscle to the extent that if you don't eat
::: that much protein
::: you'll lose the muscle? That level of protein intake hard to get
::: eating real food and while keep kcals low.
:::
:::::
::::: Also, protein intake is normally tied to LBM, not total weight,
:::
::: Right.
:::
::: which
::::: makes a difference if you're overweight. For a PSMF, 200g/day
::::: sounds about right to me, given his info.
:::
::: What info? Plus, the guy said he is doing straight LC, not a PSMF.
:::
::: I just started one and, for my
::::: 135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g protein per day.
:::
::: Are you trying to gain?
:::
::: We'd need to
::::: know his %bf (or at least his height and build) to try to be more
::::: accurate. But even 200g/day is still only 800 kcals/day, which is
::::: plenty low enough for a PSMF cutting cycle.
:::
::: Is this PSMF even proven?
:::
:::
::
:: Aren't all Lyle's ideas just based on research?

Supposed to be. But PSMF is a crash diet approach as far as I know.

warehouse wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: DJ Delorie wrote:
::::: "Werlax" <[email hidden]> writes:
:::::
:::::: My strength is way down, as well, and I'm anxious for
:::::: improvements in that area. I worry that I'm limiting my gains
:::::: since I seem to burn out so much faster on low-carb.
:::::
::::: Have you considered Lyle's new PSMF book?
:::
::: Where is this new book?
:::
:::::
:::::: According to the BMI and insurance charts, my ideal weight is
:::::: 190. It seems ridiculous to me since that was my weight in high
:::::: school.
:::::
::::: BMI doesn't work for people outside the norm, either excessively
::::: muscular or excessively not. If you can measure your %bf it's a
::::: better indicator (15% being "ideal" for men).
::
:: Lyle's got two new ones:
:: The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook & A Guide to Flexible Dieting
:: Haven't read either other than the "galley proof" excerpts from his
:: bodyrecompsition site.

Thanks for the info...I'll check them out.

I could see myself eating just shrimp for a week or two. 🙂

Roger Zoul said:

Come now...DJ.... you do really believe that everytime you lift
weights you're damaging muscle to the extent that if you don't eat
that much protein you'll lose the muscle?

Well, I know that gaining LBM is really hard, so I do want to be
careful not to lose it just because of a little dietary protein ;-)

But the idea of a PSMF protien level is to keep protein intake higher
than protein use, so the body doesn't have to break down muscle to
make glucose. Also, PSMF tries to avoid using dietary glucose for
that purpose. On plain LC you can add carbs for lifting (TKD), but
you're not supposed to on PSMF, which means a lot more protein.

Quoted message said:

That level of protein intake hard to get eating real food and while
keep kcals low.

Tell me about it! This is the first diet where I find it hard to eat
enough AND I'm hungry all the time.

Quoted message said:

What info? Plus, the guy said he is doing straight LC, not a PSMF.

Oh, right. I suppose each 1g/day carbs can offset 2g/day protein
then, so to get it down to 150g/day protein you'd need 100g/day carbs.

Quoted message said:

I just started one and, for my 135lbs LBM and lifting I'm at 170g
protein per day.

Are you trying to gain?

No, cut. I lift to stay in shape and hopefully encourage the weight
loss to be more fat than otherwise. My long term goal is to get below
15%bf then use UD2 to gain LBM while staying at or below 15%bf.