Weight bearing stretching

You should get a copy of the Wharton's book on stretching. In it they show stretches that accomplish
non weight bearing stretches by using a rope to give that extra push. The ITB section gives two
medial stretches and one lateral stretch all while on your back. Likewise with the calf muscles, one
for the inner calf muscle that you assist with your hands and another for the major muscle that you
assist with a rope, these are done while sitting on your butt. All of these and more were created by
a sports PT from Florida, Aaron L. Mattes, and are specifically for athletes.

The basics are by contracting the opposing muscles you allow for a greater stretch of the target
muscle and you assist the stretch at the end point and hold it for only two seconds with several
reps on each stretch. I can't say that it will work for you, just they work for me. To wit, when I
start having a ITB flare up I usually find that the muscles on inside of my thight are the "tight"
ones and stretching them along with one for the ITB itself will resolve the problem in short order.
Of course, YMMV.

MJuric said:

In a recent thread something to the order of "A muscle cannot be stretched while it is
bearing weight" was stated. This is very interesting to me and am wondering about specifics,
articles studies etc dealing with the subject. The reason for my interest is I have a
tendancy to have two troublesome tight spots, claves and ITB. After reading the above
statement I did a mental check on my regular stretching regime and it seems that most all my
stretches except the ones used to stretch the above trouble spots are not weight bearing.
Typically I stretch my ITB doing the Lean against the wall and push the hip in stretch and
my calves using a wedge board or "push the wall down" stretch. Also typically in all other
aspects of stretching in a series of 3 x 15-30 sec stretches I can gain noticable ROM. I.E.
My hamstrings I may have an additional 10-15 (guess) degrees more range of motion by the
third stretch than the first. Typically not so with calves and or ITB. Additionally if I'm
religious about my stretching I can gain mobility I.E. Start of the week not be able to put
head on knee end of week can. Also not the case with calves or ITB. So all of this lead me
to "attempt" to do a non weight bearing calve stretch. The first question I came to was,
whether it's weight or some other force, some force must be used to stretch the muscle. In
the case of the hamstring stretch the weight of the upper torso typically provides the
force, However the hamstring is not holding any weight of the body, but it is in some
fashion bearing the "force" that is applied to it by the opposing muscles and the weight of
the torso. In the perfect world we would all have personal trainers appliing the force for
the stretch, but this still would be force. So back to the calve stretch. Doing the "push
the wall down" stretch, requires that the body be supported by the calf of at least one
foot. What I found that by taking away the weight from the calf that was to be stretched,
simply did not apply enough force to create a stretch. This lead me back to the Whartons
book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing muscle and assist the stretch with a towel
or rope. I've done this same stretch in the past but quite doing it simply because I did not
get results and I never felt I was getting a stretch because of lack of applied force. So
this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without
causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to
not put the muscle into a state of contraction? In the case of the hamstring strech this is
fairly easily accomplished as you have a fairly large lever, the entire leg, and a nice
controlable weight, the torso controlled by fairly strong back muscles. In the case of the
foot You have either a tiny lever, the foot with no weight or a huge lever, the entire body
with no way to control the weight. The only thing I could come up with was a "stretching
device" or doing pullups and lowering ones weight down onto something like a wedge board.
Obviously by the length of the post and the above babbling I have absolutely no clue what's
going, am barking up the wrong tree or have missed the obvious. Any suggestions would be
appreciated.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

So back to the calve stretch. Doing the "push the wall down" stretch, requires that the body
be supported by the calf of at least one foot. What I found that by taking away the weight
from the calf that was to be stretched, simply did not apply enough force to create a
stretch. This lead me back to the Whartons book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing
muscle and assist the stretch with a towel or rope. I've done this same stretch in the past
but quite doing it simply because I did not get results and I never felt I was getting a
stretch because of lack of applied force.

I start my calf stretch with a flexed knee, to stretch just the deep calf muscles (mainly the
soleus). Then I do the straight-knee rope one for the gastrocnemius. The two in combination work
just fine. If you still feel as if you're lacking applied force, apply more force. (Be sure you're
using a rope or something real sturdy; I've used a rolled-up shirt or similar when my rope wasn't
handy, and a lot of the force got absorbed as the fabric stretched.)

Quoted message said:

So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT
without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled
as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction?

If the muscle is bearing weight, it *is* contracting. That's why the Whartons et al. advise non-weight-
bearing stretches pretty much exclusively.

To stretch the tensor fascia latae (the muscle that pulls the ITB -- the ITB itself doesn't stretch)
I lie down and use the rope to pull my leg across my midline. The Whartons explain it pretty well
(page 20 on my copy of their book). It works.

--
Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Weight bearing stretch sounds like an oxymoron to me... but as long as we are discussing stretches
for the backs of the legs... I also I never felt anything from the classic "wall push" stretch.
Nothing. It wasn't until I started doing Yoga that I found out what stretching really was... and one
of the best calf/hamstring stetches is "downward facing dog". That one pose alone is worth all the
money I've spent on yoga classes in the past year and a bit. Check it out if you're interested...

yogajournal.com491 1.cfmOpen ↗

Here are some other good ones for the backs of the legs...

(head to knee) yogajournal.com476 1.cfmOpen ↗ (seated forward bend)
yogajournal.com477 1.cfmOpen ↗ (standing forward bend)
yogajournal.com478 1.cfmOpen ↗

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 00:01:46 -0600, [email hidden] (Bumper)

Quoted message said:

You should get a copy of the Wharton's book on stretching. In it they show stretches that
accomplish non weight bearing stretches by using a rope to give that extra push. The ITB section
gives two medial stretches and one lateral stretch all while on your back. Likewise with the calf
muscles, one for the inner calf muscle that you assist with your hands and another for the major
muscle that you assist with a rope, these are done while sitting on your butt. All of these and
more were created by a sports PT from Florida, Aaron L. Mattes, and are specifically for athletes.

The basics are by contracting the opposing muscles you allow for a greater stretch of the target
muscle and you assist the stretch at the end point and hold it for only two seconds with several
reps on each stretch. I can't say that it will work for you, just they work for me. To wit, when I
start having a ITB flare up I usually find that the muscles on inside of my thight are the "tight"
ones and stretching them along with one for the ITB itself will resolve the problem in short order.
Of course, YMMV.

I actually have the Whartons book, "Active Isolated Stretching" or something like that. As I
mentioned before I had regualrly used that method on my calves for a fairly prolonged period
of time, a month or so, adn did not get any results. The reason I believe I did not get
results was due to teh fact that I could not get enough, force or leverage to actually
stretch teh muscle. I have not tried this approach on my ITB, I may give it a whirl though.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

MJuric said:

In a recent thread something to the order of "A muscle cannot be stretched while it is
bearing weight" was stated. This is very interesting to me and am wondering about
specifics, articles studies etc dealing with the subject. The reason for my interest is I
have a tendancy to have two troublesome tight spots, claves and ITB. After reading the
above statement I did a mental check on my regular stretching regime and it seems that most
all my stretches except the ones used to stretch the above trouble spots are not weight
bearing. Typically I stretch my ITB doing the Lean against the wall and push the hip in
stretch and my calves using a wedge board or "push the wall down" stretch. Also typically
in all other aspects of stretching in a series of 3 x 15-30 sec stretches I can gain
noticable ROM. I.E. My hamstrings I may have an additional 10-15 (guess) degrees more range
of motion by the third stretch than the first. Typically not so with calves and or ITB.
Additionally if I'm religious about my stretching I can gain mobility I.E. Start of the
week not be able to put head on knee end of week can. Also not the case with calves or ITB.
So all of this lead me to "attempt" to do a non weight bearing calve stretch. The first
question I came to was, whether it's weight or some other force, some force must be used to
stretch the muscle. In the case of the hamstring stretch the weight of the upper torso
typically provides the force, However the hamstring is not holding any weight of the body,
but it is in some fashion bearing the "force" that is applied to it by the opposing muscles
and the weight of the torso. In the perfect world we would all have personal trainers
appliing the force for the stretch, but this still would be force. So back to the calve
stretch. Doing the "push the wall down" stretch, requires that the body be supported by the
calf of at least one foot. What I found that by taking away the weight from the calf that
was to be stretched, simply did not apply enough force to create a stretch. This lead me
back to the Whartons book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing muscle and assist
the stretch with a towel or rope. I've done this same stretch in the past but quite doing
it simply because I did not get results and I never felt I was getting a stretch because of
lack of applied force. So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such
as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that
it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction? In the case of
the hamstring strech this is fairly easily accomplished as you have a fairly large lever,
the entire leg, and a nice controlable weight, the torso controlled by fairly strong back
muscles. In the case of the foot You have either a tiny lever, the foot with no weight or a
huge lever, the entire body with no way to control the weight. The only thing I could come
up with was a "stretching device" or doing pullups and lowering ones weight down onto
something like a wedge board. Obviously by the length of the post and the above babbling I
have absolutely no clue what's going, am barking up the wrong tree or have missed the
obvious. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

~Matt

Brian Baresch said:

Quoted message said:

So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT
without causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled
as to not put the muscle into a state of contraction?

If the muscle is bearing weight, it *is* contracting. That's why the Whartons et al. advise non-weight-
bearing stretches pretty much exclusively.

My question is weight bearing or not we are still appling force to the muscle. At what point
does the muscle begin contractions? At what weight? I know Wharton's mentioned a period of
time before the muscle naturally goes into contraction, can't remember a time exactly, but I
believe thsi is why they recommend shorter stretches.

Quoted message said:

To stretch the tensor fascia latae (the muscle that pulls the ITB -- the ITB itself doesn't
stretch) I lie down and use the rope to pull my leg across my midline. The Whartons explain it
pretty well (page 20 on my copy of their book). It works.

I'll check my book and see what it says. Been about a year or so since I read it. Just didn't have
much luck with their approach so I kinda dropped it.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

--
Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Quoted message said:

My question is weight bearing or not we are still appling force to the muscle. At what point
does the muscle begin contractions? At what weight? I know Wharton's mentioned a period of
time before the muscle naturally goes into contraction, can't remember a time exactly, but I
believe thsi is why they recommend shorter stretches.

2 seconds is the magic number I learned. Stretch for 2 seconds, recover for 1-2 seconds, then
stretch again, ideally 8-12 reps.

--
Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Brian Baresch said:

Quoted message said:

So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without
causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not
put the muscle into a state of contraction?

If the muscle is bearing weight, it *is* contracting. That's why the Whartons et al. advise non-weight-
bearing stretches pretty much exclusively.

My question is weight bearing or not we are still appling force to the muscle.

Bingo! I've been reading this entire discussion, unable to push aside that old High School Physics
dictum: "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Force is force, whether it
comes from gravity or a rope pull. And the reaction to the force is contraction. No two ways about
it. The only thing I can conjure up as more harmful is that "weight bearing" introduces balancing
and unstability to the stretch. Other than that, it's just another force.

I have found it helpful to keep the duration of stretches, when not doing AI, to 5 seconds or less
prior to a run (when I am not fully warmed up). This uses the AI concept that you want to avoid
contraction, which generally begins to harm in the 3-5 (and up) second range (e.g., AI stretches are
1-2 seconds). In addition, for the calves, I try to do some form of massage (with the Stick (TM) or
with my hands) prior to stretching, and also try to loosen up my calves some--making circles with my
foot is one way.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º
eNo
"If you can't go fast, go long."
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:11:15 -0800, "eNo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Brian Baresch said:

> So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a muscle such as the calf or IT without
> causing a body load and or is a body load acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not
> put the muscle into a state of contraction?

If the muscle is bearing weight, it *is* contracting. That's why the Whartons et al. advise non-weight-
bearing stretches pretty much exclusively.

My question is weight bearing or not we are still appling force to the muscle.

Bingo! I've been reading this entire discussion, unable to push aside that old High School Physics
dictum: "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Force is force, whether it
comes from gravity or a rope pull. And the reaction to the force is contraction. No two ways about
it. The only thing I can conjure up as more harmful is that "weight bearing" introduces balancing
and unstability to the stretch. Other than that, it's just another force.

I have found it helpful to keep the duration of stretches, when not doing AI, to 5 seconds or less
prior to a run (when I am not fully warmed up). This uses the AI concept that you want to avoid
contraction, which generally begins to harm in the 3-5 (and up) second range (e.g., AI stretches
are 1-2 seconds). In addition, for the calves, I try to do some form of massage (with the Stick
(TM) or with my hands) prior to stretching, and also try to loosen up my calves some--making
circles with my foot is one way.

I've definately had better luck avoiding tightness adn injury with Rolling and massaging my
calves and ITB than I have had with stretching. However It has been my quest to actually
gain some ROM, particulaly in one calf and one ITB, and massaging and rollling hasn't helped
in that department.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go
long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

Maybe I'm at a disadvantage for not having read the book that has been discussed in this thread...
but I don't follow your logic. The reaction to a force is not always just contraction... it can be
either contraction (compression) or extension (tension). I understand how a wall push could be
called a "weight bearing stretch"... since you are pushing down into the ground (push = compression)
which seems very much counter to stretching... but to me... that just means it's either a poor
'stretch' or maybe I just never did it 'right'. Again... "weight bearing stretch" sounds like an
oxymoron to me. Yes there is a force... but it's a pulling force... the opposite of weight bearing.
Maybe I'm just not understanding what you guys are talking about.

eNo said:

Bingo! I've been reading this entire discussion, unable to push aside that old High School Physics
dictum: "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Force is force, whether it
comes from gravity or a rope pull. And the reaction to the force is contraction.

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

David said:

Maybe I'm at a disadvantage for not having read the book that has been discussed in this thread...
but I don't follow your logic. The reaction to a force is not always just contraction... it can be
either contraction (compression) or extension (tension). I understand how a wall push could be
called a "weight bearing stretch"... since you are pushing down into the ground (push =
compression) which seems very much counter to stretching... but to me... that just means it's
either a poor 'stretch' or maybe I just never did it 'right'. Again... "weight bearing stretch"
sounds like an oxymoron to me. Yes there is a force... but it's a pulling force... the opposite of
weight bearing. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you guys are talking about.

I disagree with "The reaction to a force is not always just contraction... it can be either
contraction (compression) or extension (tension)" A muscle can only contract. Either
concentric or eccentric contraction. A muscle that is getting shorter is in concentric
contraction, a muscle that is getting longer under force is in eccentric coontraction, or
not moving at all isometric contraction. So when any force is applied to a muscle it will
"pull" against that force in some way. In the case of "push the wall down" stretch it is
"pulling" to hold up the weight of the body. In the Wharton's sit down and stretch the calf
with a rope" stretch, it is "pulling" against any force applied against it by the rope. In
essense if one could apply enough force in the "sit down and pull" as with the "push the
wall down" the reaction of the muscle should be exactly the same.(unless as I'm missing
something) So the question becomes not "weight bearing" vs "not weight bearing" but "how
much force for how long".

I do see the advantage of not stretching using the weight of the body, as the amount of force is
difficult to control. IOW appling 10lbs(PFA) of force to the calf may be sufficient for a stretch.
However dropping 150 lbs onto the calf will force it to contract to a "state of protection" to
protect from overstretching or tearing.

Something is mentioned in Wharton's or some other book I read concerning, Myoflexic reaction or
something like that. I believe this is the point at which the muscle contracts to protect itself.
Also if memory serves this happens around the 2-3 sec mark that has been previously brought up in
this thread. I would suspect that if a muscle was eccentrically contracting and lowering a weight,
as in the "push the wall down" stretch that the "myoflexic" reaction would take place far in advance
of the end of the ROM of the muscle as the contraction is already acting to protect the muscle. OTOH
the Wharton's method allows the muscle to remain relaxed to the end of ROM. this would allow the 2-3
secs of time for additional stretch beyond the original ROM. However that last bit was just
speculation.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

eNo said:

Bingo! I've been reading this entire discussion, unable to push aside that old High School
Physics dictum: "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Force is force,
whether it comes from gravity or a rope pull. And the reaction to the force is contraction.

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'm at a disadvantage for not having read the book that has been discussed in this thread...
but I don't follow your logic. The reaction to a force is not always just contraction... it can be
either contraction (compression) or extension (tension).

The myotatic reflex, aka "stretch reflex", kicks in at 3 seconds. Advocates of static stretching
such as Bob Anderson (he has a book too) and of yoga either don't worry about the stretch reflex or
say that it's OK to work through it. The Whartons and their guru, Aaron Mattes, take the view that
opposing the stretch reflex doesn't pay off. I'm in the latter camp; the Whartons' technique has
always worked well for me, better than static stretching.

Quoted message said:

Again... "weight bearing stretch" sounds like an oxymoron to me. Yes there is a force... but it's a
pulling force... the opposite of weight bearing. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you guys are
talking about.

When MJuric says "weight-bearing stretch" I'm sure he's thinking of stretching a muscle that's doing
work (actively contracting) at the same time; bending over to stretch the hamstrings is one example,
the hams will be contracting some for postural stability.

--
Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Thanks for the post Matt... very intersting info. Still... all this talk
of isometric this myoflexic that... I don't know... I think I'll just
keep doing my yoga practice 🙂

One thing I would add tho'... no matter how you are stretching... always remember to breathe! 🙂
Very important.

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

Quoted message said:

Something is mentioned in Wharton's or some other book I read concerning, Myoflexic reaction or
something like that. I believe this is the point at which the muscle contracts to protect itself.
Also if memory serves this happens around the 2-3 sec mark that has been previously brought up in
this thread.

That's "myotatic reflex" (I looked it up), and you're right: It does kick in by 3 seconds. As I
mentioned in another post, there's some debate whether working against that reflex is a bad
thing or not.

--
Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Rolfing, Heller Work and any work that deals with the connective tissue: fascia works on letting the
fascia release from where it may be adhering or has shortened when there was muscle damage.

Release the fascia, massage out the knotted areas in the muscle and then begain to release/stretch
the muscles that have been constricted and unable to let go due to the fascial constriction or the
scar tissue in the muscle fibers.

If you open you hand and keep it open while trying to close it you'll get a sense of what it means
to be unable to stretch a weight bearing muscle.

Also the reason one's hams might be difficult to stretch is because the antagonist muscle group, in
this case the Quads are contracting and only semi-relaxing which means the hamstring has to work
against a resistant antagonistic muscle.

If you stop resisting with the open hand, when you close the hand the hand the antagonistic
muscles relax.

Ozzie

In article said:

In a recent thread something to the order of "A muscle cannot be stretched while it is
bearing weight" was stated. This is very interesting to me and am wondering about
specifics, articles studies etc dealing with the subject. The reason for my interest is I
have a tendancy to have two troublesome tight spots, claves and ITB. After reading the
above statement I did a mental check on my regular stretching regime and it seems that
most all my stretches except the ones used to stretch the above trouble spots are not
weight bearing. Typically I stretch my ITB doing the Lean against the wall and push the
hip in stretch and my calves using a wedge board or "push the wall down" stretch. Also
typically in all other aspects of stretching in a series of 3 x 15-30 sec stretches I can
gain noticable ROM. I.E. My hamstrings I may have an additional 10-15 (guess) degrees more
range of motion by the third stretch than the first. Typically not so with calves and or
ITB. Additionally if I'm religious about my stretching I can gain mobility I.E. Start of
the week not be able to put head on knee end of week can. Also not the case with calves or
ITB. So all of this lead me to "attempt" to do a non weight bearing calve stretch. The
first question I came to was, whether it's weight or some other force, some force must be
used to stretch the muscle. In the case of the hamstring stretch the weight of the upper
torso typically provides the force, However the hamstring is not holding any weight of the
body, but it is in some fashion bearing the "force" that is applied to it by the opposing
muscles and the weight of the torso. In the perfect world we would all have personal
trainers appliing the force for the stretch, but this still would be force. So back to the
calve stretch. Doing the "push the wall down" stretch, requires that the body be supported
by the calf of at least one foot. What I found that by taking away the weight from the
calf that was to be stretched, simply did not apply enough force to create a stretch. This
lead me back to the Whartons book were you sit down, stretch with the opposing muscle and
assist the stretch with a towel or rope. I've done this same stretch in the past but quite
doing it simply because I did not get results and I never felt I was getting a stretch
because of lack of applied force. So this lead me to a question of how does one stretch a
muscle such as the calf or IT without causing a body load and or is a body load
acceptable, just that it must be controled as to not put the muscle into a state of
contraction? In the case of the hamstring strech this is fairly easily accomplished as you
have a fairly large lever, the entire leg, and a nice controlable weight, the torso
controlled by fairly strong back muscles. In the case of the foot You have either a tiny
lever, the foot with no weight or a huge lever, the entire body with no way to control the
weight. The only thing I could come up with was a "stretching device" or doing pullups and
lowering ones weight down onto something like a wedge board. Obviously by the length of
the post and the above babbling I have absolutely no clue what's going, am barking up the
wrong tree or have missed the obvious. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

~Matt

MJuric said:

David said:

Maybe I'm at a disadvantage for not having read the book that has been discussed in this thread...
but I don't follow your logic.

I'm finding this thread interesting and confusing also.

Quoted message said:

So when any force is applied to a muscle it will "pull" against that force in some way. In the
case of "push the wall down" stretch it is "pulling" to hold up the weight of the body. In the
Wharton's sit down and stretch the calf with a rope" stretch, it is "pulling" against any force
applied against it by the rope. In essense if one could apply enough force in the "sit down and
pull" as with the "push the wall down" the reaction of the muscle should be exactly the
same.(unless as I'm missing something) So the question becomes not "weight bearing" vs "not weight
bearing" but "how much force for how long".

That does seem to be the key. Now who has the answer to that question?

Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler? 8^)

Quoted message said:

I do see the advantage of not stretching using the weight of the body, as the amount of force is
difficult to control.

Now this statement, I do not understand. Using the weight of the body seems at least consistent. I
dont really believe I can pull a rope with any consistancy day after day. But my body weight
doen't change much day to day, so a standing touch your toes stretch seems to apply a repeatable
amount of force.

The push the wall stretch doesn't really use body weight AFAIK. The stretching force seems
proportional to where you place your hands on the wall and your feet on the floor. (IOW, the angle
of your body.)

Quoted message said:

IOW appling 10lbs(PFA) of force to the calf may be sufficient for a stretch. However dropping 150
lbs onto the calf will force it to contract to a "state of protection" to protect from
overstretching or tearing.

Then again the 101 pounds of force might be too little to achieve a good stretch. Does anyone have
references to research?

Quoted message said:

Something is mentioned in Wharton's or some other book I read concerning, Myoflexic reaction or
something like that. I believe this is the point at which the muscle contracts to protect itself.
Also if memory serves this happens around the 2-3 sec mark that has been previously brought up in
this thread. I would suspect that if a muscle was eccentrically contracting and lowering a weight,
as in the "push the wall down" stretch that the "myoflexic" reaction would take place far in
advance of the end of the ROM of the muscle as the contraction is already acting to protect the
muscle. OTOH the Wharton's method allows the muscle to remain relaxed to the end of ROM. this
would allow the 2-3 secs of time for additional stretch beyond the original ROM. However that last
bit was just speculation.

~Matt

Some topics like this seem to draw more speculation than others.

--
Ed Prochak running faqs.orgrunning faqOpen ↗ netiquette psg.comemily.htmlOpen ↗
--
"Two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less travelled by
and that has made all the difference."
robert frost

Somewhere this thread seems to have lost sight of the desired effect of stretching. I had the good
fortune of having been taught the AIS system by the Wharton's and have been an off and on adherent
for the last eight years (or so). I think way to much emphasis is being put on the strength/weight
necessary to "accomplish" the stretch.

The purpose, as I understand it, of stretching is to counter act the effects of training that result
in muscle imbalances that can or have led to injury or decreases ones running performance. That said
the forces necessary to accomplish a stretch are minimal, particularly for AIS where the emphasis is
on letting the opposing muscles do most of the work and using the rope or a partner tweak the
stretch just a little bit further. Anything more is a sure road to injury just from the stretching
itself, as surely the effects of forcing the target muscle beyond its capability to stretch would
cause the previously noted reflex to tighten and foreshorten the target muscle resulting in torn
muscles fibers from the aggression as opposed to gentle coaxing of the muscles to elongate a little
bit at a time.

I cannot recall any evidence of an athlete, even a runner, needing to be able put his legs behind
his head just to improve his stride or recover from an injury, quite the contrary many would suggest
that such laxity would probably be a negative for a goal of faster or easier running. Silly remark
to follow: The birthplace of yoga is India, anyone recall the last time an Indian won a foot race in
the Olympics? Yet yoga is fully capable of creating a jello like slack footer in a matter of months.

To accomplish the previously suggested goals of returning the muscles to a state of balance would
probably require six to twelve weeks of three sessions a week stretching, but as always YMMV. I have
visions of rec.runners all across the globe with Brunhildas of several nationalities reducing their
victims/runners to pretzels all in the name of stretching.

If the muscles are that tight to begin with then maybe a few sessions of sports massage would be a
good start to loosening "things" up before beginning a stretching program. If I could only get the
Swedish Bikini Team to make house calls.

Ed Prochak said:

MJuric said:

David said:

Maybe I'm at a disadvantage for not having read the book that has been discussed in this
thread... but I don't follow your logic.

I'm finding this thread interesting and confusing also.

Quoted message said:

So when any force is applied to a muscle it will "pull" against that force in some way. In the
case of "push the wall down" stretch it is "pulling" to hold up the weight of the body. In the
Wharton's sit down and stretch the calf with a rope" stretch, it is "pulling" against any force
applied against it by the rope. In essense if one could apply enough force in the "sit down and
pull" as with the "push the wall down" the reaction of the muscle should be exactly the
same.(unless as I'm missing something) So the question becomes not "weight bearing" vs "not
weight bearing" but "how much force for how long".

That does seem to be the key. Now who has the answer to that question?

Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler? 8^)

Quoted message said:

I do see the advantage of not stretching using the weight of the body, as the amount of force
is difficult to control.

Now this statement, I do not understand. Using the weight of the body seems at least consistent. I
dont really believe I can pull a rope with any consistancy day after day. But my body weight
doen't change much day to day, so a standing touch your toes stretch seems to apply a repeatable
amount of force.

The push the wall stretch doesn't really use body weight AFAIK. The stretching force seems
proportional to where you place your hands on the wall and your feet on the floor. (IOW, the angle
of your body.)

Quoted message said:

IOW appling 10lbs(PFA) of force to the calf may be sufficient for a stretch. However dropping
150 lbs onto the calf will force it to contract to a "state of protection" to protect from
overstretching or tearing.

Then again the 101 pounds of force might be too little to achieve a good stretch. Does anyone have
references to research?

Quoted message said:

Something is mentioned in Wharton's or some other book I read concerning, Myoflexic reaction or
something like that. I believe this is the point at which the muscle contracts to protect
itself. Also if memory serves this happens around the 2-3 sec mark that has been previously
brought up in this thread. I would suspect that if a muscle was eccentrically contracting and
lowering a weight, as in the "push the wall down" stretch that the "myoflexic" reaction would
take place far in advance of the end of the ROM of the muscle as the contraction is already
acting to protect the muscle. OTOH the Wharton's method allows the muscle to remain relaxed to
the end of ROM. this would allow the 2-3 secs of time for additional stretch beyond the original
ROM. However that last bit was just speculation.

~Matt

Some topics like this seem to draw more speculation than others.

You are a fool if you believe this [censored].

[email hidden] (Bumper) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Somewhere this thread seems to have lost sight of the desired effect of stretching. I had the good
fortune of having been taught the AIS system by the Wharton's and have been an off and on adherent
for the last eight <snip BS

Quoted message said:

Weight bearing stretch sounds like an oxymoron to me... but as long as we are discussing stretches
for the backs of the legs... I also I never felt anything from the classic "wall push" stretch.
Nothing. It wasn't until I started doing Yoga that I found out what stretching really was... and
one of the best calf/hamstring stetches is "downward facing dog". That one pose alone is worth all
the money I've spent on yoga

Second the recommendation to learn the "downward facing dog" asana.

Using a force to stretch a muscle, whether bodyweight, strap or other force, and holding the
stretch for 2-20 seconds, depending..., has the name "static stretch". To protect itself, the
muscle spindle fibers sense the elongation and signal the muscle to resist the stretch. To overcome
the resistance, you can contract the muscle isometrically for a few seconds prior to stretching,
and, you can use the antagonist muscle to provide the force. Both these methods initiate a signal
to a Golgi Tendon Organ which releases the muscle. Bodyweight, strap or other force assists in the
isometric contraction and can assist in the stretch, though use of the antagonist muscle(s) gives
better results.

Get a yoga instructor or PT to demonstrate contract-release (CR) or contract-release, antagonist-
contract (CRAC) stretches for the different parts of the anatomy.

These techniques have been documented in the PT literature for over 50 years. One referrence:
"Stretching & Flexibility", Kip Laughlin, '99, pbk.

Quoted message said:

classes in the past year and a bit. Check it out if you're interested...

yogajournal.com491 1.cfmOpen ↗

Here are some other good ones for the backs of the legs...

(head to knee) yogajournal.com476 1.cfmOpen ↗ (seated forward bend)
yogajournal.com477 1.cfmOpen ↗ (standing forward bend)
yogajournal.com478 1.cfmOpen ↗

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

Bill wrote:

Bodyweight, strap or other force assists in the isometric

Quoted message said:

contraction and can assist in the stretch, though use of the antagonist muscle(s) gives better
results.

This is a really good point. When my PT was helping me with some stuff a year ago, he was providing
resistance that I pushed against, then released, then range extended. At the time, it was amazing
magic to me since I'd been trying to stretch some of those areas for a long time.

Quoted message said:

These techniques have been documented in the PT literature for over 50 years. One referrence:
"Stretching & Flexibility", Kip Laughlin, '99, pbk.

For curiosity, have you ever used McAtee and Charland's "Facilitated Stretching" (1999 for 2nd ed)
and how that compares with Laughlin. It helped explain some of the magic my PT had applied and
improve the way I was doing the self-stretches. I've been meaning to get Laughlin, but it was
unavailable (at least from amazon.com) for awhile and am waiting until I reduce my backlog of
reading a little. I've been combining this with some suggestions from other places like Sports
Injury Bulletin.

Thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope