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We're "making progress" in Iraq??

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Your Bloody Soap Box
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23 August 2005
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  1. John Pilger: Lest We Forget; These Were Blair's Bombs, truthout, July 10, 2005

    [indent] "Over the past two weeks, the contrast between the coverage of the G8, its marches and pop concerts, and another "global" event has been striking. The World Tribunal on Iraq in Istanbul has had virtually no coverage, yet the evidence it has produced, the most damning to date, has been the silent spectre at the Geldoff extravaganzas. The tribunal is a serious international public inquiry into the invasion and occupation, the kind governments dare not hold. Its expert, eyewitness testimonies, said the author Arundathi Roy, a tribunal jury member, "demonstrate that even those of us who have tried to follow the war closely are not aware of a fraction of the horrors that have been unleashed in Iraq." The most shocking was given by Dahr Jamail, one of the best un-embedded reporters working in Iraq. He described how the hospitals of besieged Fallujah had been subjected to an American tactic of collective punishment, with US marines assaulting staff and stopping the wounded entering, and American snipers firing at the doors and windows, and medicines and emergency blood prevented from reaching them. Children, the elderly, were shot dead in front of their families, in cold blood." (7/12)

    crisispapers.orgwar crimes.htm

    [/indent]

  2. these are the kinds of atrocites and related events that get "swept under the rug' by the commercialy approved state censored fit for tv media in the us.

    and to think, there are some who still would refer to the myth of the
    "left-leaning press", where the hell do they get off? what kind of press would they want, 100% sugar coated to support the cause of the ruling minority?

    you there wolfix? what gives?

    where would this leave democracy? an endangered species to be sure.

    these are everyday occurances, the us soldier is witnessing firsthand burning cities where no one is rushing to put out the fires.
    these are the young men and women who will be coming home to wreak the havoc of their war experience symptoms on their families here, with the high statistical rates of resultant drug abuse, alcoholism, domestic violence, and mental problems. all this and the dept of veteran affairs is in a shortfall of 2 billion and counting.

    when the us soldier is neglected to this extent, it hits home how much disregard is indeed given to those to whom the us is delivering this so-called freedom.

    rome is crumbling, history repeats itself. an empire that gets too big to protect itself cannot raise enough taxes to support it's continued expansion. the logistics of "guarding the roads" are as fallible today as in the past...

    an army with superior firepower and armor is still vunerable against the "guerilla" tactics of the ones they would seek to occupy. this has always been the case. applying more force leads to inreased hatred and sympathy for retalliation.
    there is a defeat looming, the only way for the us to regain respect and security is to hold those responsible accountable, we must bring to trial and sentence the guilty. if this cannot happen on a national level then it will only follow it will be addressed internationaly, as amnesty international and the un leadership has advised.

    Wurm said:

    John Pilger: Lest We Forget; These Were Blair's Bombs, truthout, July 10, 2005

    crisispapers.orgwar crimes.htm

  3. Well put, lyotard. The Bush thugs apparently think they're getting away with this for the time being, but there is no statute of limitations on murder and torture, ie: war crimes.

    lyotard said:

    these are the kinds of atrocites and related events that get "swept under the rug' by the commercialy approved state censored fit for tv media in the us.

    and to think, there are some who still would refer to the myth of the
    "left-leaning press", where the hell do they get off? what kind of press would they want, 100% sugar coated to support the cause of the ruling minority?

    you there wolfix? what gives?

    were would this leave democracy? an endangered species to be sure.

    these are everyday occurances, the us soldier is seeing firsthand burning cities where no one is rushing to put out the fires.
    these are the young men and women who will be coming home to wreak the havoc of their war experiences on the families here with the high rates of drug abuse, alcoholism, domestic violence, and mental problems. all this and the dept of veteran affairs is in a shortfall of 2 billion and counting.

    when the us soldier is neglected to this extent, it hits home how much disregard is indeed given to those to whom the us is delivering this so-called freedom.

    rome is crumbling, history repeats itself. an empire that gets too big to protect itself cannot raise enough taxes to support it's continued expansion. the logistics of "guarding the roads" are as fallible today as in the past...

    an army with superior firepower and armor is still vunerable against the "guerilla" tactics of the ones they would seek to occupy. this has always been the case. applying more force leads to inreased hatred and retalliation.
    there is a defeat looming, the only way for the us to regain respect and security is to hold those accountable, we must bring to trial and sentence the guilty. if this cannot happen on a national level then it will only follow it will be addressed internationaly, as amnesty international and the un leadership has advised.

  4. The question is: who to believe?

    The american soldiers saying that some 5 year old kid stepped out of a doorway and shot his buddy in the face or the iraqi who says that an american soldier shot his sister in cold blood?

    Personally I believe both - war in whatever form puts human's in positions so far from the norm that they do abnormal things.....

    Was the 'war' justified? Who knows.

    All I know is I feel more comfortable with americans controlling oil than I did when Hussein was.

    Would the mothers of dead american soldiers agree? Probably not.

  5. Eldron said:

    The question is: who to believe?

    Was the 'war' justified? Who knows.

    All I know is I feel more comfortable with americans controlling oil than I did when Hussein was.

    Would the mothers of dead american soldiers agree? Probably not.


    Is that the best defense/excuse you've got for this [censored]?

  6. Wurm said:

    Is that the best defense/excuse you've got for this [censored]?

    When did I defend/excuse anything? All I said was I felt more comfortable with americans controlling the oil.....

  7. Eldron said:

    When did I defend/excuse anything? All I said was I felt more comfortable with americans controlling the oil.....


    Do you also feel more comfortable that the U.S. has/is killing and permanently maiming thousands of Iraqi women, children, and old men?

    Does it make you feel better that this invasion/occupation is illegal, and we've been straight out LIED TO every step of the way, including about 9/11?

    Do you feel more comfortable knowing your government is illegally commiting torture and other war crimes in the name of "democracy" and "freedom"?

  8. Wurm said:

    Do you also feel more comfortable that the U.S. has/is killing and permanently maiming thousands of Iraqi women, children, and old men?

    Does it make you feel better that this invasion/occupation is illegal, and we've been straight out LIED TO every step of the way, including about 9/11?

    Do you feel more comfortable knowing your government is illegally commiting torture and other war crimes in the name of "democracy" and "freedom"?

    Wurm - ranting to a South African about US 'democratic' crime isn't going to help anybody.

    From your comments I would say you are equal to the pro war crowd just on the opposite side of the spectrum....

    My advice - try to find a happy medium somewhere - there is more to life than not sleeping at night because you read too many conspiracy theory websites.

  9. Eldron said:

    Wurm - ranting to a South African about US 'democratic' crime isn't going to help anybody.

    From your comments I would say you are equal to the pro war crowd just on the opposite side of the spectrum....

    My advice - try to find a happy medium somewhere - there is more to life than not sleeping at night because you read too many conspiracy theory websites.


    You can make your own uninformed conclusions about me, but every thing I've stated above is FACT my friend, and far from conspiracy. If there IS any conspiracy to be found in any of this, it is the Bush administration's and the bought-and-paid-for corporate media's obscuring and distorting of the truth about what's going on in Iraq.

    Can you show me how any of what I said is a lie, conspiracy, or exaggeration of the actual situation? If not, shut up.

  10. Wurm,

    I would definitely not call murder, torture and war crimes "[censored]"! 😕

  11. Wurm said:

    You can make your own uninformed conclusions about me, but every thing I've stated above is FACT my friend, and far from conspiracy. If there IS any conspiracy to be found in any of this, it is the Bush administration's and the bought-and-paid-for corporate media's obscuring and distorting of the truth about what's going on in Iraq.

    Can you show me how any of what I said is a lie, conspiracy, or exaggeration of the actual situation? If not, shut up.

    There is no absolute truth or fact...

    If you choose to believe the hand wrangling, head clutching thousands of innocent women and children are dying type media coverage then that becomes your truth.

    My truth is somewhere in the middle - the US have killed some (who knows how many?) Iraqis - the Iraqis have in turn turtured and beheaded some journalists, soldiers and aid workers. Both statements are FACT. Is either killing justified? Absolutely not.

    I'll leave 9/11 well enough alone - there are thousands of viewpoints, theories and 'facts' on that one.....

  12. Eldron said:

    There is no absolute truth or fact...

    If you choose to believe the hand wrangling, head clutching thousands of innocent women and children are dying type media coverage then that becomes your truth.

    My truth is somewhere in the middle - the US have killed some (who knows how many?) Iraqis - the Iraqis have in turn turtured and beheaded some journalists, soldiers and aid workers. Both statements are FACT. Is either killing justified? Absolutely not.

    I'll leave 9/11 well enough alone - there are thousands of viewpoints, theories and 'facts' on that one.....

    As per the typical party line rhetoric, people of your ilk will find some kind of way to excuse or obfuscate the situation, no matter how ridiculous or vague it has to be.

    "Somewhere in the middle"? I don't think so, not with so much evidence screaming out at the world.

  13. Wurm said:

    As per the typical party line rhetoric, people of your ilk will find some kind of way to excuse or obfuscate the situation, no matter how ridiculous or vague it has to be.

    "Somewhere in the middle"? I don't think so, not with so much evidence screaming out at the world.

    Ridiculous and vague huh? So the beheadings and turture in iraq are all US political propaganda?

    At least I'm willing to look at both sides of the story - all you do is paint every soldier with the same tainted brush. They do do some good you know....

  14. Eldron said:

    Ridiculous and vague huh? So the beheadings and turture in iraq are all US political propaganda?

    Pretty sure he didn't say that. There is no need to lie with rhetorical
    questions. It's also worth noting that the US and the UK have staged
    executions in order to achieve political agenda in occupied countries
    in the past. Seeing as they are occupying a country right now, I do
    not see any reason to believe that those Leopards have changed
    their spots.

    Eldron said:


    At least I'm willing to look at both sides of the story - all you do is paint every soldier with the same tainted brush. They do do some good you know....

    If soldiers are not trusted and accepted by the community then there
    will be conflict, and that will tend to cause more harm than good. You
    have to keep in mind that the Coalition troops *invaded* Iraq, they
    were not invited in, they are not trusted and they are not accepted.

    I have not doubt that some soldiers do some good, but the broader
    picture is somewhat different. Fallujah was once a thriving city of
    300,000 people, reknowned for it's Mosques. Right now it is mostly
    uninhabited rubble. Then there are the so called "Bad Apples" who
    abuse and murder their prisoners (this has proven to be a *widespread* problem, not a few isolated incidents).

    I am sure that there is plenty more dirt to be dug up, but I'm don't
    think it's necessary. Anyone who pays attention to history can tell
    you that occupation forces inevitably commit horrific atrocities,
    sometimes under orders, sometimes for their own individual ends. My
    feeling is that the fundamental problem is that Occupation troops
    are *not* accountable to the people that they hold life or death
    power over. The US military (for example, it is not unique in this)
    goes to great lengths to establish this legal immunity for it's troops
    everywhere they go.

  15. By FRANK RICH
    Published: August 28, 2005

    ANOTHER week in Iraq, another light at the end of the tunnel. On Monday President Bush saluted the Iraqis for "completing work on a democratic constitution" even as the process was breaking down yet again. But was anyone even listening to his latest premature celebration?

    We have long since lost count of all the historic turning points and fast-evaporating victories hyped by this president. The toppling of Saddam's statue, "Mission Accomplished," the transfer of sovereignty and the purple fingers all blur into a hallucinatory loop of delusion. One such red-letter day, some may dimly recall, was the adoption of the previous, interim constitution in March 2004, also proclaimed a "historic milestone" by Mr. Bush. Within a month after that fabulous victory, the insurgency boiled over into the war we have today, taking, among many others, the life of Casey Sheehan.

    It's Casey Sheehan's mother, not those haggling in Baghdad's Green Zone, who really changed the landscape in the war this month. Not because of her bumper-sticker politics or the slick left-wing political operatives who have turned her into a circus, but because the original, stubborn fact of her grief brought back the dead the administration had tried for so long to lock out of sight. With a shove from Pat Robertson, her 15 minutes are now up, but even Mr. Robertson's antics revealed buyer's remorse about Iraq; his stated motivation for taking out Hugo Chávez by assassination was to avoid "another $200 billion war" to remove a dictator.

    In the wake of Ms. Sheehan's protest, the facts on the ground in America have changed almost everywhere. The president, for one, has been forced to make what for him is the ultimate sacrifice: jettisoning chunks of vacation to defend the war in any bunker he can find in Utah or Idaho. In the first speech of this offensive, he even felt compelled to take the uncharacteristic step of citing the number of American dead in public (though the number was already out of date by at least five casualties by day's end). For the second, the White House recruited its own mom, Tammy Pruett, for the president to showcase as an antidote to Ms. Sheehan. But in a reversion to the president's hide-the-fallen habit, the chosen mother was not one who had lost a child in Iraq.

    It isn't just Mr. Bush who is in a tight corner now. Ms. Sheehan's protest was the catalyst for a new national argument about the war that managed to expose both the intellectual bankruptcy of its remaining supporters on the right and the utter bankruptcy of the Democrats who had rubber-stamped this misadventure in the first place.

    When the war's die-hard cheerleaders attacked the Middle East policy of a mother from Vacaville, Calif., instead of defending the president's policy in Iraq, it was definitive proof that there is little cogent defense left to be made. When the Democrats offered no alternative to either Mr. Bush's policy or Ms. Sheehan's plea for an immediate withdrawal, it was proof that they have no standing in the debate.

    Instead, two conservative Republicans - actually talking about Iraq instead of Ms. Sheehan, unlike the rest of their breed - stepped up to fill this enormous vacuum: Chuck Hagel and Henry Kissinger. Both pointedly invoked Vietnam, the war that forged their political careers. Their timing, like Ms. Sheehan's, was impeccable. Last week Mr. Bush started saying that the best way to honor the dead would be to "finish the task they gave their lives for" - a dangerous rationale that, as David Halberstam points out, was heard as early as 1963 in Vietnam, when American casualties in that fiasco were still inching toward 100.

    And what exactly is our task? Mr. Bush's current definition - "as the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down" - could not be a better formula for quagmire. Twenty-eight months after the fall of Saddam, only "a small number" of Iraqi troops are capable of fighting without American assistance, according to the Pentagon - a figure that Joseph Biden puts at "fewer than 3,000." At this rate, our 138,000 troops will be replaced by self-sufficient locals in roughly 100 years.
    For his part, Mr. Hagel backed up his assertion that we are bogged down in a new Vietnam with an irrefutable litany of failure: "more dead, more wounded, less electricity in Iraq, less oil being pumped in Iraq, more insurgency attacks, more insurgents coming across the border, more corruption in the government." Mr. Kissinger no doubt counts himself a firm supporter of Mr. Bush, but in Washington Post this month, he drew a damning lesson from Vietnam: "Military success is difficult to sustain unless buttressed by domestic support." Anyone who can read a poll knows that support is gone and is not coming back. The president's approval rating dropped to 36 percent in one survey last week.

    What's left is the option stated bluntly by Mr. Hagel: "We should start figuring out how we get out of there."

    He didn't say how we might do that. John McCain has talked about sending more troops to rectify our disastrous failure to secure the country, but he'll have to round them up himself door to door. As the retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey reported to the Senate, the National Guard is "in the stage of meltdown and in 24 months we'll be coming apart." At the Army, according to The Los Angeles Times, officials are now predicting an even worse shortfall of recruits in 2006 than in 2005. The Leo Burnett advertising agency has been handed $350 million for a recruitment campaign that avoids any mention of Iraq.

    Among Washington's Democrats, the only one with a clue seems to be Russell Feingold, the Wisconsin senator who this month proposed setting a "target date" (as opposed to a deadline) for getting out. Mr. Feingold also made the crucial observation that "the president has presented us with a false choice": either "stay the course" or "cut and run." That false choice, in which Mr. Bush pretends that the only alternative to his reckless conduct of the war is Ms. Sheehan's equally apocalyptic retreat, is used to snuff out any legitimate debate. There are in fact plenty of other choices echoing about, from variations on Mr. Feingold's timetable theme to buying off the Sunni insurgents.

    But don't expect any of Mr. Feingold's peers to join him or Mr. Hagel in fashioning an exit strategy that might work. If there's a moment that could stand for the Democrats' irrelevance it came on July 14, the day Americans woke up to learn of the suicide bomber in Baghdad who killed as many as 27 people, nearly all of them children gathered around American troops. In Washington that day, the presumptive presidential candidate Hillary Clinton held a press conference vowing to protect American children from the fantasy violence of video games.

    The Democrats are hoping that if they do nothing, they might inherit the earth as the Bush administration goes down the tubes. Whatever the dubious merits of this Kerryesque course as a political strategy, as a moral strategy it's unpatriotic. The earth may not be worth inheriting if Iraq continues to sabotage America's ability to take on Iran and North Korea, let alone Al Qaeda.

    As another politician from the Vietnam era, Gary Hart, observed last week, the Democrats are too cowardly to admit they made a mistake three years ago, when fear of midterm elections drove them to surrender to the administration's rushed and manipulative Iraq-war sales pitch. So now they are compounding the original error as the same hucksters frantically try to repackage the old damaged goods.

    IN the new pitch there are no mushroom clouds. Instead we get McCarthyesque rhetoric accusing critics of being soft on the war on terrorism, which the Iraq adventure has itself undermined. Before anyone dare say Vietnam, the president, [censored] Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld drag in the historian David McCullough and liken 2005 in Iraq to 1776 in America - and, by implication, the original George W. to ours. Before you know it, Ahmad Chalabi will be rehabilitated as Ben Franklin.

    The marketing campaign will crescendo in two weeks, on the anniversary of 9/11, when a Defense Department "Freedom Walk" will trek from the site of the Pentagon attack through Arlington National Cemetery to a country music concert on the Mall. There the false linkage of Iraq to 9/11 will be hammered in once more, this time with a beat: Clint Black will sing "I Raq and Roll," a ditty whose lyrics focus on Saddam, not the Islamic radicals who actually attacked America. Lest any propaganda opportunity be missed, Arlington's gravestones are being branded with the Pentagon's slogans for military campaigns, like Operation Iraqi Freedom, The Associated Press reported last week - a historic first. If only the administration had thought of doing the same on the fallen's coffins, it might have allowed photographs.

    Even though their own poll numbers are in a race to the bottom with the president's, don't expect the Democrats to make a peep. Republicans, their minds increasingly focused on November 2006, may well blink first. In yet another echo of Vietnam, it's millions of voters beyond the capital who will force the timetable for our inexorable exit from Iraq.

  16. Wurm said:

    John Pilger: Lest We Forget; These Were Blair's Bombs, truthout, July 10, 2005

    [indent]"Over the past two weeks, the contrast between the coverage of the G8, its marches and pop concerts, and another "global" event has been striking. The World Tribunal on Iraq in Istanbul has had virtually no coverage, yet the evidence it has produced, the most damning to date, has been the silent spectre at the Geldoff extravaganzas. The tribunal is a serious international public inquiry into the invasion and occupation, the kind governments dare not hold. Its expert, eyewitness testimonies, said the author Arundathi Roy, a tribunal jury member, "demonstrate that even those of us who have tried to follow the war closely are not aware of a fraction of the horrors that have been unleashed in Iraq." The most shocking was given by Dahr Jamail, one of the best un-embedded reporters working in Iraq. He described how the hospitals of besieged Fallujah had been subjected to an American tactic of collective punishment, with US marines assaulting staff and stopping the wounded entering, and American snipers firing at the doors and windows, and medicines and emergency blood prevented from reaching them. Children, the elderly, were shot dead in front of their families, in cold blood." (7/12)

    crisispapers.orgwar crimes.htm

    [/indent]

    I have never heard so much left wing [censored] in my life. While war is a terrible thing, there are times when war must be fought. And this is one of those times. Iran is going to one of those times if a nuclear weapons program (and for all who believe it for electricity are very mistaken) is not curtailed. We had problems with some National guard troops, but nothing like terrorist cutting off peoples heads as they pleaded for their lives. The British and the Americans are trying to make these peoples lives better, but like most liberals who have the attention span of an eight year old this has to be done overnight. I'm wearing my red, white and blue brooklyn jersey tomorrow on my commute tomorrow just to [censored] morons like you......Mike

  17. crithater said:

    I have never heard so much left wing [censored] in my life. While war is a terrible thing, there are times when war must be fought. And this is one of those times. Iran is going to one of those times if a nuclear weapons program (and for all who believe it for electricity are very mistaken) is not curtailed. We had problems with some National guard troops, but nothing like terrorist cutting off peoples heads as they pleaded for their lives. The British and the Americans are trying to make these peoples lives better, but like most liberals who have the attention span of an eight year old this has to be done overnight. I'm wearing my red, white and blue brooklyn jersey tomorrow on my commute tomorrow just to [censored] morons like you......Mike


    U R smart 🙄 What did Iraq have to do w/ 9-11 😕 I await your well reasoned response. Take your time, you're going to need it 🙄 As I type this, the Majority of American people believe Iraq was/is a disaster w/ no viable pretext. What say you 😕 Incidentally, I'm a vet from the 80's era.

  18. crithater said:

    I have never heard so much left wing [censored] in my life. While war is a terrible thing, there are times when war must be fought. And this is one of those times. Iran is going to one of those times if a nuclear weapons program (and for all who believe it for electricity are very mistaken) is not curtailed. We had problems with some National guard troops, but nothing like terrorist cutting off peoples heads as they pleaded for their lives. The British and the Americans are trying to make these peoples lives better, but like most liberals who have the attention span of an eight year old this has to be done overnight. I'm wearing my red, white and blue brooklyn jersey tomorrow on my commute tomorrow just to [censored] morons like you......Mike

    Hey Mikey -

    Don't forget to stop during that ride to torture a few ragheaded sandniggers, should you see any along the way. Better yet, why don't you drag your useless ass (or your kids'😉 over to Eye-Rack and have at it? With any luck, you might drive over an IED, and we'd all be one less Brainless Bush Fan better off.

    If you were a true patriot, you'd want the BushCo's heads on a [censored] platter. But you're not.

  19. a far fetched comparison here in any measurable terms, these horrid acts you describe are isolated incidents in comparison to the toll of the us led invasions and it's continuing aftermath, i do not point this out to minimize these acts,
    rather to provide a basis by which to come to conclusions on that does not rely on sensationalist news coverage.

    these acts are no more excusable than the "shock and awe" intent stated by the bush warmongers.

    after all, how much of the toll on the very people you are professing the us is helping makes it to the radar screen of middle america? like keepin' track of body counts of civilians killed and wouded? and how many of these were defensless babies, children and elderly? or the amount of radioactive contamination left from the us dropping of depleted uranium bombs? how bout the total tonnage of bombs dropped, and how much of this was on civilian targets? heard of the fuel-air bombs dropped in afganistan? or that the us leads the list as the #1 human rights violator as reported by amnesty international?
    then there is the bombing of schools, hospitals, villiages, mosques and other civilian centers. we must not ignore the use of cluster bombs and the number of deaths and maimings these have brought upon the populus.

    left wing? you toss this phrase out without having a leg to stand on in terms of attached meaning, we are talking here about humanitarianism, when (choose your label if you must generalize, as these terms have all morphed into meaninglessness) the right wing, or conservative disregards fundamental human rights in the name of us domination and superiority he then adopts a mindset truly as poisonous as the acts you mention, and far from anything resembling america.
    at least not of any america that i could be proud of.

    as for claiming these acts to be "terrorist", the definition of terrorist is different when invoked by bush to provide emotional support for war a war based on deception than from when described by the arab american anti defamation league, as the latter defintion would include violence against a nation or people to further a business or politcal agenda... do we see a criminal intent here? and the guilty bushco parties?

    try fascist, dictataorship, totalitarian, imperialist, adventurist, and colonialist, labels such as these have been applied to goverments which have faded from acceptance in humanitarian terms. it is due time to add the bush criminal syndicate neo-conservatism to this list of rejects.

    crithater said:

    I have never heard so much left wing [censored] in my life. had problems with some National guard troops, but nothing like terrorist cutting off peoples heads as they pleaded for their lives. just to [censored] morons like you......Mike

  20. crithater said:

    I'm wearing my red, white and blue brooklyn jersey tomorrow on my commute tomorrow just to [censored] morons like you......Mike


    the French tricolour? good for you..

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