We're all Dinosaurs

[Not Responding] wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

But I was struck by how this new generation of
internet users have almost no knowledge of usenet.

[...]

Shh! Don't tell them we're here. ;-)

Quoted message said:

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

Ah, usenet. The Radio Four of internet discussion tools.

--
Cheerful Pedalling
John Mallard

[Not Responding] vaguely muttered something like ...

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I met some internet people in RL. It was a ride put together
by someone on the C+ web forum.

It was all good fun. But I was struck by how this new generation of
internet users have almost no knowledge of usenet. I've been using
usenet for years; I like the relatively open and non-proprietorial
structure. I even grudgingly tolerate deja style archiving as it
creates a truely open and searchable cache of knowledge.

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

From what I've seen of 'forums' they are mostly a victory of style over
function and content. There _are_ some good ones out there, specialist
forums that cater for very particular niches that might not be tolerated or
be OT in many newsgroups but without the traffic to sustain themselves
without trolls and spammers moving in. One major problem I have with them
is the need, in many I've seen, for moderators and the general time-lag
betweeen posting and appearance of an article. This alone can create some
weird threads, if you can call them threads

OTOH, if newcomers to computing and the Internet like them ...

I guess a lot depends upon the base aplication for the web forum too, though
... 😉

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."
(8(|) Homer Rules !!!

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Mallard' not_me@all said:

Quoted message said:

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

Different purposes and functions. It's worse when people try to
emulate IRC in the Web.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

Enclosure of the Commons?

Quoted message said:

Ah, usenet. The Radio Four of internet discussion tools.

ROTFL! That's .sig material.

--
Nick Kew

John Mallard said:

Shh! Don't tell them we're here. ;-)

Too late, we've already been found by Cyclingforums

Tony

John Mallard said:

[Not Responding] wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

But I was struck by how this new generation of
internet users have almost no knowledge of usenet.

[...]

Shh! Don't tell them we're here. ;-)

Quoted message said:

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

Ah, usenet. The Radio Four of internet discussion tools.

I thought I had dragged myself into the 21st century, now you say
there's another way to talk to people. What's the difference between a
usenet group and a web forum?

Sniper8052

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:32:26 -0000 someone who may be "Paul - [censored]"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

There _are_ some good ones out there, specialist
forums that cater for very particular niches that might not be tolerated or
be OT in many newsgroups

Indeed. I lurk in one.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

in message <[email hidden]>, [Not

Responding (') said:

Yesterday I met some internet people in RL. It was a ride put together
by someone on the C+ web forum.

It was all good fun. But I was struck by how this new generation of
internet users have almost no knowledge of usenet.

True. New Internet users are not now introduced to Usenet, and when they
do try it it looks clunky and old fashioned to them. Of course, it is
clunky and old fashioned - but it also works extremely well, and I
honestly don't know of any 'web forum' system which works (and scales)
anything like as well.

So, frankly, I'm happy to remain a dinosaur.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; When your hammer is C++, everything begins to look like a thumb.

in message <[email hidden]>, Sniper805

(L96A1) (') said:

John Mallard said:

[Not Responding] wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

But I was struck by how this new generation of
internet users have almost no knowledge of usenet.

[...]

Shh! Don't tell them we're here. ;-)

Quoted message said:

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

Ah, usenet. The Radio Four of internet discussion tools.

I thought I had dragged myself into the 21st century, now you say
there's another way to talk to people. What's the difference between
a usenet group and a web forum?

Usenet is ancient, vast, public, decentralised, flexible, anarchic,
highly efficient in its use of network resources, and allows highly
sophisticated filtering of messages (you shouldn't ever get offered a
message you've seen before, for example, even if it was also posted to
another group you read; you can choose to highlight or wholly ignore
posts based on a wide range of criteria; and so on). You can choose
from a variety of tools to interact with Usenet through a user
interface which suits you. The 'problem' with Usenet is that although
it is cheap to run, no-one has found any way of making money out of it.

Web forums are newer, small, insular, individually centralised,
inflexible, policed, highly inefficient in use of network resources;
few allow any filtering of messages, and those that do allow only
limited filtering; and you can only interact with a web forum through
its own user interface, which is inevitably different to every other
forums user interface.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
"The result is a language that... not even its mother could
love. Like the camel, Common Lisp is a horse designed by
committee. Camels do have their uses."
;; Scott Fahlman, 7 March 1995

in message <[email hidden]>, Nick Kew

(') said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to
be taking over as the internet discussion tool.

Enclosure of the Commons?

Precisely.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

IMHO, there aren't enough committed Christians, but that's care
in the community for you. -- Ben Evans

Simon Brooke said:

True. New Internet users are not now introduced to Usenet, and when they
do try it it looks clunky and old fashioned to them. Of course, it is
clunky and old fashioned - but it also works extremely well, and I
honestly don't know of any 'web forum' system which works (and scales)
anything like as well.

I find it far from clunky and old fashioned (maybe that says something
about me). I hate reading e-mails through a web interface, preferring a
good e-mail programme like Thunderbird to read my e-mails and reading
Usenet in it is just like reading e-mails. I can download everything to
my laptop and browse, search and read everything off-line on the train,
plane or just sat around.

Tony

Not Responding said:

Yesterday I met some internet people in RL. It was a ride put together
by someone on the C+ web forum.

It was all good fun. But I was struck by how this new generation of
internet users have almost no knowledge of usenet. I've been using
usenet for years; I like the relatively open and non-proprietorial
structure. I even grudgingly tolerate deja style archiving as it
creates a truely open and searchable cache of knowledge.

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

So why do you C+ forum then ? What is your point ? That everyone should
be using usenet instead of web forums ? While I agree that it would
indeed serve the same purpose, especially as the C+ forum with no
graphics I'd like to suggest a possible reason why usenet isn't used
more widely. Not everyone uses an mail/new client. Not everyone is able
nor wants to install such a beast on their machines. Look at the flack
people, including myself, have recieved on here when attempting to use a
browser interface to u.r.c. . Google groups access is delayed makingit
useless, GG 2 is quirky, intermitent and doesn't follow the rules.
Cycclingforums is highly frowned upon. Is it any wonder that people
don't bother using usenet for this group ?

Simon Brooke said:

Usenet is ancient, vast, public, decentralised, flexible, anarchic,
highly efficient in its use of network resources, and allows highly
sophisticated filtering of messages (you shouldn't ever get offered a
message you've seen before, for example, even if it was also posted to
another group you read; you can choose to highlight or wholly ignore
posts based on a wide range of criteria; and so on). You can choose
from a variety of tools to interact with Usenet through a user
interface which suits you. The 'problem' with Usenet is that although
it is cheap to run, no-one has found any way of making money out of it.
Web forums are newer, small, insular, individually centralised,
inflexible, policed, highly inefficient in use of network resources;
few allow any filtering of messages, and those that do allow only
limited filtering; and you can only interact with a web forum through
its own user interface, which is inevitably different to every other
forums user interface.

But /apart/ from that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

--
Guy

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

What's the difference between a
usenet group and a web forum?

One advantage is that you can use a free choice of lightweight clients
to present the newsgroups of your choice in a common, usually highly
configurable interface. Kill-filters, crosspost filtering, decent
support for proper interleaved quoting and so on - all these are
collateral benefits.

The biggest drawback of web forums is you have to visit them each in
turn. Also, few of them follow the threading model particularly well.

--
Guy

MSeries said:

Google groups access is delayed makingit
useless,

IMO the delay is rarely harmful and often beneficial. There are few
contributions that would not be improved by an additional day's delay
and the chance to read some other comments, although it's only usenet
and it doesn't have to be taken that seriously. I agree the new version
of google groups seems significantly worse (someone else said the same
recently).

Quoted message said:

GG 2 is quirky, intermitent and doesn't follow the rules.
Cycclingforums is highly frowned upon. Is it any wonder that people
don't bother using usenet for this group ?

I think there are already plenty of valuable contributors here: I'm
happy that most people go elsewhere.

I'm on a couple of email lists that also work pretty well, but on the
whole I am wary of privately-owned (and moderated) fora.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Not Responding said:

Yesterday I met some internet people in RL.

I've just spent a good five minutes trying to work out where RL was on
the south coast..

And finally twigged where it is..

Bah! (errant sheep again)

...d

Just zis Guy said:

The biggest drawback of web forums is you have to visit them each in
turn. Also, few of them follow the threading model particularly well.

What threading model ? the usenet one ? why should they ? In some
respects the unthreaded way of forums follows real life more, hwoever
confusing and difficult that may be it is what everyone is most familiar
with. You are in a room with say 6 others talking about say, dynamos v
battery lights. Points are made all the time in no order really other
than chronological. Some are responding to earlier ones some or new.
Some replies carry a mix of both. No real thread exists in real life one
has to remember the material that went before.

Sniper8052(L96A1) said:

What's the difference between a usenet group and a web forum?

One is the finest decentralised textual discussion medium yet devised,
and the other sucks donkey todger.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"Opinionated weather forecasters telling me it's going to be a
miserable day. Miserable to who? I quite like a bit of drizzle,
so stick to the facts"

James Annan said:

......................, although it's only usenet
and it doesn't have to be taken that seriously

sigh, I know but in it sometimes is taken very seriously by posters on
here. Such replies such as "if you can play by the rules then don't play
at all" simply because GG2 wasn't threading properly is really not
necessary.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GG 2 is quirky, intermitent and doesn't follow the rules.
Cycclingforums is highly frowned upon. Is it any wonder that people
don't bother using usenet for this group ?

I think there are already plenty of valuable contributors here: I'm
happy that most people go elsewhere.

Can never have plenty of valuable contributors, how will we know what we
are missing ?

Quoted message said:

I'm on a couple of email lists that also work pretty well, but on the
whole I am wary of privately-owned (and moderated) fora.

James

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:39:49 -0700, MSeries <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It appears that however much I dislike web forums, they do seem to be
taking over as the internet discussion tool.

So why do you C+ forum then ? What is your point ? That everyone should
be using usenet instead of web forums ?

My "point" was merely an observation that in the past if you wanted to
discuss your favoured subject, you used usenet and so did all other
interested parties on the internet. Today most people and certainly
the new generation of users turn to web forums by default.

I'm not sure I was saying everyone *should* use usenet; it's a matter
of choice. But we as a community are certainly losing something
collectively as the division, privatisation and censorship of
discussion takes place.

Why do I use the C+ forum? Because I like talking about cycling. The
fact that I don't rate then venue is secondary.