Watts Improvement What's Possible?

Was this your first year of training, or have you been training/riding for a while? What's your lean body mass, or total weight and approximate body fat %?

wiredued said:

I trained semi orderly this year and I think my sustained watts for twenty minutes is around 200 right now from plugging in the numbers here at this site. analyticcycling.comForcesPower Page.htmlOpen ↗

If I train well for a year how much improvement can I expect? I would like to generate 300 watts for twenty minutes.... just wondering how far in the future that goal should be?

There's no way of knowing without trying. You might respond to training really well, and be over 300 watts in two months. Or you might be at your genetic limit right now (admittedly unlikely, unless you're very small or perhaps suffering from some ailment). The only way to find out is to get out there and train.

Something I wish someone had told me when I first tried to get faster, is that the only effective way of accomplishing this sort of thing is with intervals. OK, perhaps not the only effective way, but intervals are so much more effective than anything else I've tried. I've seen what I consider remarkable gains from conscientiously applying them this year (2x20s twice a week during "hard" weeks), after several years of no appreciable progress from just riding lots, racing, doing group rides, etc. There's no substitute.

First, congrats on framing your question in watts. Other measures of performance (e.g., speed) lack a common set of underlying specs and thus there is no answer. But, I think you may get more useful responses if you share some or all of the following info. About you: age, gender, weight and overall fitness. About your training last year: hours per week of training, distribution of your training time in accordance with a well-known schema (e.g., Andy Coggan's or Ric's). About your training next year: how many hours do you plan to train? Going from 200w to 300w in 20 min power in one season is challenging, but not impossible. I have raised my 20MP from ~200w to ~300w in 6 months, but I had prior racing experience and I rode 14-20 hours/week, with a significant amount of time at L4-L6 per AC's schema.

I would say yes but I know I have made some mistakes this year it has been experimental training to see what works. I have to agree with one of the posters that intervals twice a week made a big difference but intervals twice a week year round sounds contraindicated what do you think? I thought intervals fine tuned endurance gains made during the off season and should be done twice a week in the spring not fall or winter. I am 40 195lbs 6' 1".

Thanks

frenchyge said:

Was this your first year of training, or have you been training/riding for a while? What's your lean body mass, or total weight and approximate body fat %?

I designed this workout scheme after reading Scott Tinley's Winning guide to Sports Endurance it isn't the same as his but the terminology he used really stuck with me because it was simple. I do other riding outdoors like commuting but this is the backbone to my cycling.

Saturday LSD 70% MHR 2hr on trainer or 4hr to 6hr outdoor.

Sunday Junk miles 50% MHR 45 minutes trainer

Monday Hard steady 80% MHR atleast 20 minutes trainer or Seven 2 minute intervals

Tuesday same as Sunday or sleep late

Wednesday seven 3 minute intervals.

Recovery ride or sleep late

Friday absolutely nothing

RapDaddyo said:

First, congrats on framing your question in watts. Other measures of performance (e.g., speed) lack a common set of underlying specs and thus there is no answer. But, I think you may get more useful responses if you share some or all of the following info. About you: age, gender, weight and overall fitness. About your training last year: hours per week of training, distribution of your training time in accordance with a well-known schema (e.g., Andy Coggan's or Ric's). About your training next year: how many hours do you plan to train? Going from 200w to 300w in 20 min power in one season is challenging, but not impossible. I have raised my 20MP from ~200w to ~300w in 6 months, but I had prior racing experience and I rode 14-20 hours/week, with a significant amount of time at L4-L6 per AC's schema.

wiredued said:

Saturday LSD 70% MHR 2hr on trainer or 4hr to 6hr outdoor.
Sunday Junk miles 50% MHR 45 minutes trainer
Monday Hard steady 80% MHR atleast 20 minutes trainer or Seven 2 minute intervals
Tuesday same as Sunday or sleep late
Wednesday seven 3 minute intervals.
Recovery ride or sleep late
Friday absolutely nothing

It looks to me as though you are getting in enough time on your bike to improve your sustainable power, but you're not getting in many high-intensity minutes. By contrast, I do ~3 hrs of L4-L6 (per AC's schema) even in a "light" week. I'm not advocating my training program, just contrasting the weekly high-intensity time.

RapDaddyo said:

It looks to me as though you are getting in enough time on your bike to improve your sustainable power, but you're not getting in many high-intensity minutes.

I agree with this, and I'll take a stab at the original question. 20 minutes @ 300 watts is beyond what most cyclists who train by just "riding around a lot" will probably ever achieve. For a bigger rider, like yourself, 300w is certainly not out of the question but I'd guess that it'll take a couple seasons of targetted training. That means regular intervals to increase MAP and LT (zones 4 & 5 - cyclingnews.comfitnessOpen ↗ ). It's still hard to say whether you'll get to 300w, but based on your current workout routine you'll see a dramatic improvement from your current levels.

So shifting more towards endurance in the off season is counter productive and I should go back to doing intervals twice a week and do it year round. Is that the path to watts improvement?

frenchyge said:

I agree with this, and I'll take a stab at the original question. 20 minutes @ 300 watts is beyond what most cyclists who train by just "riding around a lot" will probably ever achieve. For a bigger rider, like yourself, 300w is certainly not out of the question but I'd guess that it'll take a couple seasons of targetted training. That means regular intervals to increase MAP and LT (zones 4 & 5 - cyclingnews.comfitnessOpen ↗ ). It's still hard to say whether you'll get to 300w, but based on your current workout routine you'll see a dramatic improvement from your current levels.

How many times a week do you do intervals and do you do it year round like that?

kmavm said:

There's no way of knowing without trying. You might respond to training really well, and be over 300 watts in two months. Or you might be at your genetic limit right now (admittedly unlikely, unless you're very small or perhaps suffering from some ailment). The only way to find out is to get out there and train.

Something I wish someone had told me when I first tried to get faster, is that the only effective way of accomplishing this sort of thing is with intervals. OK, perhaps not the only effective way, but intervals are so much more effective than anything else I've tried. I've seen what I consider remarkable gains from conscientiously applying them this year (2x20s twice a week during "hard" weeks), after several years of no appreciable progress from just riding lots, racing, doing group rides, etc. There's no substitute.

So longer high intensity like hard steady atleast 40 minutes instead of 20 or 14 intervals instead of 7?

RapDaddyo said:

It looks to me as though you are getting in enough time on your bike to improve your sustainable power, but you're not getting in many high-intensity minutes. By contrast, I do ~3 hrs of L4-L6 (per AC's schema) even in a "light" week. I'm not advocating my training program, just contrasting the weekly high-intensity time.

wiredued said:

So longer high intensity like hard steady atleast 40 minutes instead of 20 or 14 intervals instead of 7?

Everybody's training plan has training levels or zones to achieve the same adaptations (e.g., LT and VO2MAX), but I follow Andy Coggan's schema here peakscoachinggroup.compowertrainingchapter.pdfOpen ↗. Ric's schema is similar, but keyed off of MAP rather than 1hrMP. The key zones (in Andy's schema) are L4-L6, especially L4 and L5. To get the desired adaptation, it's important that intervals are within the target duration (e.g., L4>10min) and intensity (e.g., L4>91%LT Power). I try to get in a total of 3 hours per week of L4-L6 intensity (with each effort >= the minimum duration for that level). At the moment, I don't do track-like repeats. Rather, I have a scenic 60-mile training route with two long climbs (3 and 4.5 miles) and other sections that I do at L4 pace plus a number of shorter climbs and route sections that I do at L5 (if the section is >3min) or L6 (if the section is <3min) pace. I've basically analyzed the route and worked out an optimal pacing plan to maximize the high-intensity efforts, with necessary recoveries (under the constraint NP=FT). I do that route on MWF, with recovery rides on TT. The MWF rides are the heart of my training plan. None of these efforts is at max power for that duration. Rather, they're closer to 90% of MP for the duration. My longest climb is ~25 minutes and my 25MP would be ~295w. I typically do that climb at ~265w. So, the high-intensity efforts aren't all-out, fall off the bike at the end efforts. Rather, they are done at steady, manageable intensities well within my capabilities. I look forward to them and try to manage my power as precisely as possible during each interval. This in itself (precise power management) is no trivial task and is equally important. There are countless training plans and interval programs and my approach may be in the minority. But, I like it because the ride is a continuous loop and is very scenic. With or without the high-intensity work, it's a nice ride. It took quite a bit of work and analysis to develop an optimal pacing plan for the route and work out all of the high-intensity effort levels and push triggers, etc. Initially, I carried a cheat-sheet with notes on the push triggers and target powers, etc. But, I now know the route and the high-intensity sections and it's just a ride. Periodic testing is an important part of any training plan, but all I have to do to test myself is to ride my long climb at max power and, voila, I have tested myself. As Andy Coggan says, training is testing and testing is training (or something to that effect). The bottom line is this. We increase our sustainable power by doing high-intensity efforts and then having a recovery day. But, I prefer to integrate my high-intensity efforts into an interesting, scenic and pleasurable ride route.

You might want to consider investing in a powermeter if you really want to improve power output.

A 20MP of 300W isn't that hard to achieve, even for relatively light riders and even at altitude. I improved over 15% this season despite my imperfect training plan. The challenge now is to keep improving...

I take that as a yes. The fall off the bike effort you mentioned LOL reminded me of an 8 minute 32 second 253 watt hill charge I did Sunday I could barely keep my balance and to weak to ride back down I just stood there with my arms on the handlebars sucking it up for about 10 minutes trying not to cause a comotion by passing out:o. I guess without a powermeter that is the closest to my MAP I will get.

RapDaddyo said:

Everybody's training plan has training levels or zones to achieve the same adaptations (e.g., LT and VO2MAX), but I follow Andy Coggan's schema here peakscoachinggroup.compowertrainingchapter.pdfOpen ↗. Ric's schema is similar, but keyed off of MAP rather than 1hrMP. The key zones (in Andy's schema) are L4-L6, especially L4 and L5. To get the desired adaptation, it's important that intervals are within the target duration (e.g., L4>10min) and intensity (e.g., L4>91%LT Power). I try to get in a total of 3 hours per week of L4-L6 intensity (with each effort >= the minimum duration for that level). At the moment, I don't do track-like repeats. Rather, I have a scenic 60-mile training route with two long climbs (3 and 4.5 miles) and other sections that I do at L4 pace plus a number of shorter climbs and route sections that I do at L5 (if the section is >3min) or L6 (if the section is <3min) pace. I've basically analyzed the route and worked out an optimal pacing plan to maximize the high-intensity efforts, with necessary recoveries (under the constraint NP=FT). I do that route on MWF, with recovery rides on TT. The MWF rides are the heart of my training plan. None of these efforts is at max power for that duration. Rather, they're closer to 90% of MP for the duration. My longest climb is ~25 minutes and my 25MP would be ~295w. I typically do that climb at ~265w. So, the high-intensity efforts aren't all-out, fall off the bike at the end efforts. Rather, they are done at steady, manageable intensities well within my capabilities. I look forward to them and try to manage my power as precisely as possible during each interval. This in itself (precise power management) is no trivial task and is equally important. There are countless training plans and interval programs and my approach may be in the minority. But, I like it because the ride is a continuous loop and is very scenic. With or without the high-intensity work, it's a nice ride. It took quite a bit of work and analysis to develop an optimal pacing plan for the route and work out all of the high-intensity effort levels and push triggers, etc. Initially, I carried a cheat-sheet with notes on the push triggers and target powers, etc. But, I now know the route and the high-intensity sections and it's just a ride. Periodic testing is an important part of any training plan, but all I have to do to test myself is to ride my long climb at max power and, voila, I have tested myself. As Andy Coggan says, training is testing and testing is training (or something to that effect). The bottom line is this. We increase our sustainable power by doing high-intensity efforts and then having a recovery day. But, I prefer to integrate my high-intensity efforts into an interesting, scenic and pleasurable ride route.

I would buy one if you could give me a good come back to my wife saying "Well if you think it would be best for the family" what do you say to that.

Squint said:

You might want to consider investing in a powermeter if you really want to improve power output.

A 20MP of 300W isn't that hard to achieve, even for relatively light riders and even at altitude. I improved over 15% this season despite my imperfect training plan. The challenge now is to keep improving...

wiredued said:

I take that as a yes. The fall off the bike effort you mentioned LOL reminded me of an 8 minute 32 second 253 watt hill charge I did Sunday I could barely keep my balance and to weak to ride back down I just stood there with my arms on the handlebars sucking it up for about 10 minutes trying not to cause a comotion by passing out:o. I guess without a powermeter that is the closest to my MAP I will get.

Well, not exactly. MAP is a different testing protocol that requires a progressive ramp-up to exhaustion. The ramp rate is important to the results obtained under this testing protocol. The MAP testing protocol is described here cyclingnews.comfitnessOpen ↗. A lot of these terms sound alike (e.g., 20MP vs. MAP, LT vs. FT), but they are in fact quite different and one must be a little careful to use the right term. Actually, this forum could benefit from a glossary of terms.

frenchyge said:

Was this your first year of training, or have you been training/riding for a while? What's your lean body mass, or total weight and approximate body fat %?

Do riders with lower body fat produce more power then riders with higher body fat? take this scenario. 2 riders same genetics same training program and weight. but one has more fat then other, wich one would most likely produce more power?

wiredued said:

So shifting more towards endurance in the off season is counter productive and I should go back to doing intervals twice a week and do it year round. Is that the path to watts improvement?

I wouldn't say "counter productive," as it does help with the advertised goal of building endurance for longer rides. What it doesn't do is increase your power levels for shorter durations (ie, 20 minutes). You'll need to spend time at 200w and higher in order to get your body to adapt for those higher power levels.

As far as your comment about off-season vs. year-round, etc. Keep in mind that we didn't know that your posted routine was an off-season shift from a typical in-season routine. The feedback you're getting relates to improving your 20 minute power from 200 --> 300w, and you'll have to use your own judgement about how to incorporate the suggestions into a workable plan that fits your constraints, motivation levels, and *other* riding goals (like endurance for longer rides).

zaskar said:

Do riders with lower body fat produce more power then riders with higher body fat?

The fat neither helps nor hurts the power production, but it does skew the W/kg or W/(kg^.67) comparison to other riders of similar weight. The reason I asked the OP that question is because a 200 lb rider at 7% body fat has a much greater lean body mass than a 200lb rider at 22% body fat. If you wanted to compare the two, then the first rider would probably be capable of more W/kg.

zaskar said:

take this scenario. 2 riders same genetics same training program and weight. but one has more fat then other, wich one would most likely produce more power?

The one with the greater lean body mass will probably produce more power.