Water, on long runs

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been jogging for a few years. But nothing of long distance. 3
miles or
so. I have decided to train for a marathon. How does one keep hydrated
while
training for the long runs? It is winter now and I live in the
Northeast.
All the parks around me have the water fountains turned off. Am I
supposed
to carry the water I need for the run with me? Seems kind of heavy.

Welcome to distance training in the NE. Yes, you will need to carry
fluids(for runs longer than an hour carry a sports drink rather than
plain water) be it in you hand, waist pack, stake out, or camelback. You
could try to have a friend meet you or modify your route into loops
such that you pass your house/store with fluids every N miles. You will
hardly notice the weight after a few runs.

-DF

just get a bottle belt and carry the water. you'll forget it's there
until you need it.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for responding. I live in the suburbs, so passing a convience store
or two isn't out of the question.
Thanks.

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Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 31 Dec 2004:

Quoted message said:

I've been jogging for a few years. But nothing of long distance. 3
miles or so. I have decided to train for a marathon. How does one keep
hydrated while training for the long runs? It is winter now and I live
in the Northeast. All the parks around me have the water fountains
turned off. Am I supposed to carry the water I need for the run with
me? Seems kind of heavy.

There are several different ways of staying hydrated for a long run. My
preference (I've tried a few) is using a CamelBak FlashFlo
(http://tinyurl.com/2kjq) for distaces up to 13 miles. I can fill it with
48 oz of fluid. Every 2.5 miles I'll drink about 12 oz. For distances
past 13 miles I'll stash a 24 oz bottle at 12.5 miles (that will get me
to 17.5 miles), another bottle at 17.5 miles (that will get me to 20+
miles). You can get CamelBaks that hold more fluid, but I have not had
much success with them. I tried the CamelBak Lobo, but I never got
comfortable with using it. The [censored] pack style of the FlashFlo seems
better suited for me. It is specifically designed for running. However,
there are others on this group that love the backpack style of the Lobo
(http://tinyurl.com/6ee96).

Lately I've been using the FlashFlo along with the Ultimate Direction
FastDraw (http://tinyurl.com/5xxjp). This is convenient if you do not
feel like driving out and dropping fluids along the course. Also, since
you are in a colder climate than I, leaving bottles out on your course
could be a problem since they will likely freeze like a brick by the time
you pick them up to drink. Actually, the CamelBak may freeze also. Maybe
Dot (from Alaska) will chime in with her comments on hydrating in cold
temperatures. The FastDraw holds about 20 oz. It has a comfortable
elastic strap so you don't get tired holding the bottle for so long. I'll
drink out of the bottle for the first 5 miles, then switch to the
CamelBak for the remainder. That way I don't have to carry the full
weight of the bottle in my hand for such a long time.

You mentioned carrying water. Plain water for a long training run is not
the best fluid. You need something with calories, carbs, and electrolytes
(sodium/potassium). Find out on the marathon's web site what they will be
serving on the course. Most likely it is Gatorade (gatobarf as some like
to call it). You should start used to drinking whatever it is that they
will be serving at the aid stations of your marathon. My preference is
Cytomax, but I'll switch to Gatorade in a few weeks, since that is what
they serve at Boston.

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John
Short, South African coach.

Or you could do it this way. Fill several containers with water or juice
( I use old soda bottles) and drive along your route. Throw the bottles
out the passenger window every 3 to 4 miles.
Try not to throw to hard because if they fall out too far you will have
a hell of a time finding them.

Big draw back to this method... you got to go back and pick up the
bottles after the run.

Len

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden] of 31
Dec 2004:

Quoted message said:

Or you could do it this way. Fill several containers with water or juice
( I use old soda bottles) and drive along your route. Throw the bottles
out the passenger window every 3 to 4 miles.
Try not to throw to hard because if they fall out too far you will have
a hell of a time finding them.

Big draw back to this method... you got to go back and pick up the
bottles after the run.

Yep. Like I said, I've done that. Not my preference.

Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 31 Dec 2004:

Quoted message said:

I've been jogging for a few years. But nothing of long distance. 3
miles or so. I have decided to train for a marathon. How does one keep
hydrated while training for the long runs? It is winter now and I live
in the Northeast. All the parks around me have the water fountains
turned off.

Can't remember the last time I saw an outdoor drinking water fountain
where I am (Alaska) 😉

Am I supposed to carry the water I need for the run with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me? Seems kind of heavy.

It's not that bad once you get used to it, and it gives you the freedom
to go anywhere (well, anywhere legal).

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr - not just for the electrolytes and fuel, but they
should have a lower freezing point than water (I've not actually
measured them).

Doug gave you his very pithy summary, and Phil started the subthread for
the detail folks 😉

Quoted message said:

However,
there are others on this group that love the backpack style of the Lobo
(http://tinyurl.com/6ee96).

I use a Lobo in summer, but prefer a Cloudwalker (old style) in winter
since it can carry more gear (peel/replace layers) and it's easier to
adjust the insulation. Use what works best for you - and your needs. I
just like to carry extra layers with me when I'm out alone in subzero F
on trails, for obvious reasons. What works for me is probably not needed
by most people here, and what works for most people here probably won't
work for me.

Quoted message said:

leaving bottles out on your course
could be a problem since they will likely freeze like a brick by the

time

Quoted message said:

you pick them up to drink. Actually, the CamelBak may freeze also. Maybe
Dot (from Alaska) will chime in with her comments on hydrating in cold
temperatures.

Water or sports drink will freeze if in freezing temperatures for
extended periods - doesn't matter if store-bought bottle, sports-drink
bottle, or camelbak. Obviously the colder it is, the faster it freezes.
The sports drinks generally become like slushees, although I suppose
they may freeze solid if chilled long enough. I have had fluid become
inaccessible through the nozzles both with bottles and with camelbaks.

I've found hydration bladders the easiest way to maintain fluids on long
runs, esp. in winter. (Note: I run trails and prefer to run
self-contained. Reduces a lot of hassles for me, esp. since our races
generally have few or no aid stations. Others may be just as happy
stopping by a store or their vehicle.) I prefer to run hands free. A
standard trick is to insulate the bladder, tubing (kits available or use
pipe or quilt insulation and wrap with duct tape - latter is more
reliable), and mouthpiece, and blow the fluid in the tube back in the
bladder after every drink. Fluid in the mouthpiece is the most
vulnerable to freezing so it's best to keep this free of fluid or warm
or both. At about 0F, I drink about every 15 min, sometimes sooner.
Keeping fluid in motion helps.

With bottles, some people carry them under their jacket, some turn them
upside down to keep the slush out of the nozzle. Some bottles have wider
nozzles than others and would be less likely to freeze. I've had more
problems with frozen fluids in bottles than I have in cb. And I've never
found a 2-bottle belt that would work for me so that's another reason
*I* use cb.

FWIW, last winter I went to watch the start of the Susitna 100 (100 mi
trail race in mid-Feb winter in Alaska = cold, snow) to see how those
folks carried their fluids and learned a lot. I had been frustrated by
frozen fluids issues for awhile, but I knew others had figured it out,
so I went to the experts.

Dot

--
"If we reach all our goals, we are not setting them high enough."
- Matt Carpenter

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all for runs
up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're reasonably fit. I
usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm anticipating being out for
longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that this is good practice or the best
way of training, just pointing out another option.

Happy new year all.

Tim

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 01 Jan 2005:

Quoted message said:

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all for
runs up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're
reasonably fit. I usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm
anticipating being out for longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that
this is good practice or the best way of training, just pointing out
another option.

Very true. I did notice that you said, "I'm not saying that this is good
practice or the best way of training," but I think the OP should be made
aware of the importance of hydrating for the long run as well as the
importance of practicing drinking on the run. Even to the extent of
drinking gatorbarf, if this is what they are serving at his race. Nobody
wants any surprises on marathon day.

Phil M.

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all for
runs
up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're reasonably fit.
I
usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm anticipating being out for
longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that this is good practice or the
best
way of training, just pointing out another option.

heh, i wanted to say that but i figured it would start a flame war.

standing back.

Quoted message said:

Happy new year all.

Tim

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all for
runs
up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're reasonably
fit. I
usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm anticipating being out
for
longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that this is good practice or the
best
way of training, just pointing out another option.

You are correct and I don't always follow my own advice but I do know
that drinking during the run is much better for recovery and since
recovery is the name of the game!!!!

-DF

"Yin Yang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
of hours if the weather's cool and you're reasonably fit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I
usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm anticipating being out
for
longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that this is good practice or
the best
way of training, just pointing out another option.

heh, i wanted to say that but i figured it would start a flame war.

standing back.

In most cases we politely differ. It's usually when some starts off by
saying something like, "you dumb [censored]....this is the way it should be
done" that starts the war. The exception to this is Donovan and I
concerning speed and women. 🙂

-DougF

Tim Downie said:

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all for runs
up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're reasonably fit. I
usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm anticipating being out for
longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that this is good practice or the best
way of training, just pointing out another option.

That probably works if one is well hydrated beforehand.
I'd still probably want to drink every 30 minutes. But
as Dot and I were discussing last week a substancial
loss of body fluids and likely electrolytes (my info)
even in cooler temps is from respiration (venting the
lungs.)

So, just because it's cool doesn't mean you can't
get equally as dehydrated as when it's hot.

Quoted message said:

Happy new year all.

Tim

Dot said:

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 31 Dec 2004:

Quoted message said:

I've been jogging for a few years. But nothing of long distance. 3
miles or so. I have decided to train for a marathon. How does one keep
hydrated while training for the long runs? It is winter now and I live
in the Northeast. All the parks around me have the water fountains
turned off.

Can't remember the last time I saw an outdoor drinking water fountain
where I am (Alaska) 😉

Oh now, what do you call a stream?

Course you may have to carry an axe to
break through the ice 🙂

Quoted message said:

Am I supposed to carry the water I need for the run with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me? Seems kind of heavy.

It's not that bad once you get used to it, and it gives you the freedom
to go anywhere (well, anywhere legal).

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr - not just for the electrolytes and fuel, but they
should have a lower freezing point than water (I've not actually
measured them).

Doug gave you his very pithy summary, and Phil started the subthread for
the detail folks 😉

Quoted message said:

However,
there are others on this group that love the backpack style of the Lobo
(http://tinyurl.com/6ee96).

I use a Lobo in summer, but prefer a Cloudwalker (old style) in winter
since it can carry more gear (peel/replace layers) and it's easier to
adjust the insulation. Use what works best for you - and your needs. I
just like to carry extra layers with me when I'm out alone in subzero F
on trails, for obvious reasons. What works for me is probably not needed
by most people here, and what works for most people here probably won't
work for me.

Quoted message said:

leaving bottles out on your course
could be a problem since they will likely freeze like a brick by the

time

Quoted message said:

you pick them up to drink. Actually, the CamelBak may freeze also. Maybe
Dot (from Alaska) will chime in with her comments on hydrating in cold
temperatures.

Water or sports drink will freeze if in freezing temperatures for
extended periods - doesn't matter if store-bought bottle, sports-drink
bottle, or camelbak. Obviously the colder it is, the faster it freezes.
The sports drinks generally become like slushees, although I suppose
they may freeze solid if chilled long enough. I have had fluid become
inaccessible through the nozzles both with bottles and with camelbaks.

I've found hydration bladders the easiest way to maintain fluids on long
runs, esp. in winter. (Note: I run trails and prefer to run
self-contained. Reduces a lot of hassles for me, esp. since our races
generally have few or no aid stations. Others may be just as happy
stopping by a store or their vehicle.) I prefer to run hands free. A
standard trick is to insulate the bladder, tubing (kits available or use
pipe or quilt insulation and wrap with duct tape - latter is more
reliable), and mouthpiece, and blow the fluid in the tube back in the
bladder after every drink. Fluid in the mouthpiece is the most
vulnerable to freezing so it's best to keep this free of fluid or warm
or both. At about 0F, I drink about every 15 min, sometimes sooner.
Keeping fluid in motion helps.

I would think that if a hydration bladder is worn
on one's back (either in it's own or another pack)
and insulated by your outermost layer (trapped air),
your body would generate enough heat to keep it from
freezing. Course I don't consistently run in the
alaskan outback when it's -20. Same I'd think might
apply to a nozzel/tube. Stuff it down the front of
your outer shell..

Quoted message said:

With bottles, some people carry them under their jacket, some turn them
upside down to keep the slush out of the nozzle. Some bottles have wider
nozzles than others and would be less likely to freeze. I've had more
problems with frozen fluids in bottles than I have in cb. And I've never
found a 2-bottle belt that would work for me so that's another reason
*I* use cb.

FWIW, last winter I went to watch the start of the Susitna 100 (100 mi
trail race in mid-Feb winter in Alaska = cold, snow) to see how those
folks carried their fluids and learned a lot. I had been frustrated by
frozen fluids issues for awhile, but I knew others had figured it out,
so I went to the experts.

Dot

--
"If we reach all our goals, we are not setting them high enough."
- Matt Carpenter

Tim Downie said:

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all for runs
up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're reasonably fit.

I noticed you said "cool" here, not "cold", so I'm assuming you're
talking about temperatures above +10F/-12C, probably above 20F/-8C 🙂
It's not clear where the OP is and whether cold (below +10F) is really
an issue. That's why I thought Doug had answered the question adequately
for the level of information the OP provided, esp. since OP was content
to stop in a store. Then Phil drew me in 😉

I would agree if running in "cool" temperatures, although I've found I
need the fluids for much over about 1:15-1:30 or I'm toast (based on the
way I've trained) - and needs increase when temps get lower (yes, that's
lower) than that, to a certain extent because of the drier air. While I
have run without fluids for over an hour on a number of occasions (and
been out longer than planned), I find I have to spend so much time
rehydrating afterward, that it's easier to stay hydrated so I can go
about rest-of-life when done. While not as fit as you ultra folks 🙂,
I'm not exactly a couch potato, so should fit somewhere in the middle of
things. Usually somewhere around 20oz/hr works about right for me in
most temperatures where I run (-15F to +70F). *If* I reach the point of
being able to run in warmer temperatures sufficiently that I can do more
than slog, I expect fluid needs would increase above +60F.

Another point that I learned after my first trail race where I hadn't
adequately prepared for time to get back to car (point-to-point, no
shuttle) and then home, is that getting dehydrated and underfueled can
lead to long recoveries (although some of that was just the night race
situation as well as first out-of-town race). As Mike T. pointed out at
the time, on each of his IM workouts, he is working on the recovery for
the next workout. Granted, my workouts aren't that long and have lots of
recovery time in between 😉, but I think it's a good approach if
training like you intend to race. yea, there's always the occasional run
that doesn't go as planned.

Quoted message said:

I usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm anticipating
being out for longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that this is good
practice or the best way of training, just pointing out another
option.

Right. I tend to emphasize hydration (for me as well as posts) on all
runs since it's important for avoiding many things (at least it seems
that way) like hypothermia, frostbite, altitude effects (assortment of
issues there that us low elevation people don't have to deal with),
dehydration, etc. These are all factors that are seldom mentioned here.

Some runs may take longer than anticipated because of snow or other
unanticipated conditions, so I tend to take fluid/fuel for longer than
anticipated.

In my case, I also tend to try to stay reasonably hydrated / fueled by
the end in case I have problems driving home - or stop to help someone
who has slid off in the ditch (one of our snowshoers after the last
race. I bought new snow tires for my car this year because of that road
last year.) - or a road closure for whatever reason.

Admittedly, for people just running from their house in cool
temperatures (above +10F), these things aren't much of an issue. But
it's part of our running environment up here if going to races or group
runs.

For perspective, I drank about 30oz of fluid while xc skiing for 1:22
the other day - deliberately flat and easy (as recovery from ss running,
also my 1st time this winter) - about 12F/-12C, about 10mph wind in some
places. I drank another 20 oz of milk when I got home (did some quick
food shopping on the way). Ok, some of the milk was to rehydrate after
bean soup, but the 1st 10 oz was definitely needed. That was unusual,
since about 20oz/hr works about right for me running, almost regardless
of temp - not sure what was different (ok, I do have some ideas, but I'm
not convinced they were the issue). (see other thread with Tom Phillips
regarding winter hydration, can't remember subject of thread off top of
my head)

Quoted message said:

Happy new year all.

Thanks, and same to you!

Dot

--
"After 26 hours 38 minutes, we accomplished our mission, and the next
day were fortunate to read about our adventure in the sports section of
the local papers rather than the obituaries."
-Dean Karnazes recounting their running of the WS100 trail in winter.

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

Can't remember the last time I saw an outdoor drinking water fountain
where I am (Alaska) 😉

Oh now, what do you call a stream?

Don't usually have any stream crossings, although I am near lakes on
some runs, but they are down in kettles - would take me a 20-oz bottle
just to get up to trail again 😉

Quoted message said:

Course you may have to carry an axe to
break through the ice 🙂

Actually I skiied near a floodplain a couple days ago (that was my
turnaround point). I'm not at all sure where the channel would have been
in that willow thicket. I have an approximate idea from past years, but
it woulda been work. Some of the usual seepages were completely frozen
or buried.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would think that if a hydration bladder is worn
on one's back (either in it's own or another pack)
and insulated by your outermost layer (trapped air),
your body would generate enough heat to keep it from
freezing.

Exactly. However, the bladder itself isn't the problem. It's the narrow
tube and especially the narrower mouthpiece opening.

Course I don't consistently run in the

Quoted message said:

alaskan outback when it's -20. Same I'd think might
apply to a nozzel/tube. Stuff it down the front of
your outer shell..

Yea, that works unless the wind is blowing, and I'm zipped up tight. My
older shell had under-arm pit zips, and that worked well to slide it in
through there, but that was a tangled mess when taking layers off when
inside or even during the run. My new, lighter shell doesn't have pit
zips. We haven't had that many cold (below +10F) days yet for long runs
to try different approaches yet. So far, I bring tube over my shoulder,
but then have been able to tuck it in open shell zipper from the top
since I don't have enough insulation on mouthpiece (need to improve
that). I'm also considering making an insulated pocket for it on the
shoulder strap. I'm going to consider bringing it up under my arm also.
It's a work in progress, but I'm getting close, I think. At least I'm
not having the trouble with bottles freezing within 1+ hr that I had the
first year.

I talked with a couple people at the start of Susitna 100 (midFeb) last
year. They had their cb tubes insulated with what appeared to be either
the UD insulation or pipe insulation covered with duct tape. They need
to have about 15lb of gear or more, so most runners haul gear on a sled,
but wear cb. In that context, some have the fluid-only cb and wear that
under shell. I'm going to try to chat with more folks this year since
I'm getting so I know some of the people from other activities.

But everyone said to be sure to drink to keep that mouthpiece open - no
matter how much insulation. The obvious question that pops into mind
(well, my mind, anyway) is does this force too much drinking and that's
why 40% were hyponatremic in one study or were the "hyponatremic" folks
following some ACSM recommendation to drink 1 liter / hr or did the
study divide the competitors into hyponatremic or not based on an
arbitrary division line within the subjects, rather than a truly
fuctional one. IOW, were their "hyponatremic" subjects truly
hyponatremic or just have lower electrolyte concentrations than the
other subjects. This is what's been driving some of my questions, both
as to fluids and electrolytes.

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
"After 26 hours 38 minutes, we accomplished our mission, and the next
day were fortunate to read about our adventure in the sports section of
the local papers rather than the obituaries."
-Dean Karnazes recounting their running of the WS100 trail in winter.

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all for
runs
up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're reasonably fit.
I
usually don't bother carrying water unless I'm anticipating being out for
longer than 2 hours. I'm not saying that this is good practice or the
best
way of training, just pointing out another option.

I agree to a point, sure - it's not a problem to run without water
and just drink when you get home, but I've noticed that when I
keep right on top of the hydration game, I tend to recover faster
for tomorrow's session.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON)
www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from dot.h@#duh?att.net of
01 Jan 2005:

Quoted message said:

Tim Downie said:

Dot said:

I'll echo Doug's and Phil's comment, about using sports drink for
anything over 1 hr

Just to offer another view point, you don't *have* to drink at all
for runs up to a couple of hours if the weather's cool and you're
reasonably fit.

I noticed you said "cool" here, not "cold", so I'm assuming you're
talking about temperatures above +10F/-12C, probably above 20F/-8C 🙂
It's not clear where the OP is and whether cold (below +10F) is really
an issue. That's why I thought Doug had answered the question
adequately for the level of information the OP provided, esp. since OP
was content to stop in a store. Then Phil drew me in 😉

Oops. Was that bad?

Quoted message said:

I would agree if running in "cool" temperatures, although I've found I
need the fluids for much over about 1:15-1:30 or I'm toast

I wouldn't call it toast, but I will bring fluids along for runs of 8
miles or longer. Anything shorter than that, and I just make sure I have
about 20 oz before I head out the door. Anything 8-10 miles I just carry
a UD handheld. 10 and up and I strap on the CamelBak, not only for the
fluids but to carry my pager and cell phone. I don't feel good staying
out of touch from our IT department too long.

(based on

Quoted message said:

the way I've trained) - and needs increase when temps get lower (yes,
that's lower) than that, to a certain extent because of the drier air.

How dry? In the winter it gets to be in the 30-40% humidity range,
compared with 60-80% in the summer. I hadn't noticed my fluid needs
decreasing. I don't feel any stomach sloshing and I don't have the urge
to urinate during the long runs. So I assume I'm still hydrating
properly. I do have to remind myself to drink when it's cooler.

Quoted message said:

Usually somewhere around 20oz/hr works about right for me in most
temperatures where I run (-15F to +70F).

About 36 oz per hour for me, regardless of temps, 30F to 85F. So I may be
over-hydrating in the winter or under-hydrating in the summer. I do feel
better after a long run in cooler temps, but that me be due to other
problems with running in the heat.

Quoted message said:

*If* I reach the point of
being able to run in warmer temperatures sufficiently that I can do
more than slog, I expect fluid needs would increase above +60F.

How much of the year is it over 60F? What is slog? Slow jog? Shuffle a
log? Sleigh with a dog?

Quoted message said:

Another point that I learned after my first trail race where I hadn't
adequately prepared for time to get back to car (point-to-point, no
shuttle) and then home, is that getting dehydrated and underfueled can
lead to long recoveries (although some of that was just the night race
situation as well as first out-of-town race). As Mike T. pointed out
at the time, on each of his IM workouts, he is working on the recovery
for the next workout. Granted, my workouts aren't that long and have
lots of recovery time in between 😉, but I think it's a good approach
if training like you intend to race. yea, there's always the
occasional run that doesn't go as planned.

That was my point. If you're training for a specific event, you should
mimic that event with appropriate fluids when possible. For me it took
several long runs before I got the whole hydration/nutrition thing down.
What to dringk/eat, how to carry it, when to drink/eat it. I recall a few
posts a while back where people were still wondering what they were going
to do for the marathon. IMO, that's one of the things you have to figure
out for yourself (because everyone's different) by doing the long runs
and trying various things. If you've only got a few long runs to figure
it out, then you just hope you get things right very quickly.

Quoted message said:

In my case, I also tend to try to stay reasonably hydrated / fueled by
the end in case I have problems driving home - or stop to help someone
who has slid off in the ditch (one of our snowshoers after the last
race. I bought new snow tires for my car this year because of that
road last year.) - or a road closure for whatever reason.

So you have post-run adventures as well? No wonder you need so much
fluid. You need to be super woman after your workout. ;-)

Phil M.

--
"What counts in battle is what you do once the pain sets in." -John
Short, South African coach.

Dot said:

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

Can't remember the last time I saw an outdoor drinking water fountain
where I am (Alaska) 😉

Oh now, what do you call a stream?

Don't usually have any stream crossings, although I am near lakes on
some runs, but they are down in kettles - would take me a 20-oz bottle
just to get up to trail again 😉

But you like those hills, no?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Course you may have to carry an axe to
break through the ice 🙂

Actually I skiied near a floodplain a couple days ago (that was my
turnaround point). I'm not at all sure where the channel would have been
in that willow thicket. I have an approximate idea from past years, but
it woulda been work. Some of the usual seepages were completely frozen
or buried.

Well I would assume (because that's what I do)
that on a preplanned route water sources would be
preidentified for quick breaks. That's usually
how I travel in the backcountry. I _hate_ carrying
water 🙂 But sounds like you're in a swamp.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would think that if a hydration bladder is worn
on one's back (either in it's own or another pack)
and insulated by your outermost layer (trapped air),
your body would generate enough heat to keep it from
freezing.

Exactly. However, the bladder itself isn't the problem. It's the narrow
tube and especially the narrower mouthpiece opening.

Course I don't consistently run in the

Quoted message said:

alaskan outback when it's -20. Same I'd think might
apply to a nozzel/tube. Stuff it down the front of
your outer shell..

Yea, that works unless the wind is blowing, and I'm zipped up tight. My
older shell had under-arm pit zips, and that worked well to slide it in
through there, but that was a tangled mess when taking layers off when
inside or even during the run. My new, lighter shell doesn't have pit
zips.

Easy to modify. Cut a suitable slit in the shell
back and stitch around the edges. Same thing as
you find on backpacks with hydration pockets. Then
just run the tube in through the slit and over the
shoulder to the neck.

Quoted message said:

We haven't had that many cold (below +10F) days yet for long runs
to try different approaches yet. So far, I bring tube over my shoulder,
but then have been able to tuck it in open shell zipper from the top
since I don't have enough insulation on mouthpiece (need to improve
that). I'm also considering making an insulated pocket for it on the
shoulder strap. I'm going to consider bringing it up under my arm also.
It's a work in progress, but I'm getting close, I think. At least I'm
not having the trouble with bottles freezing within 1+ hr that I had the
first year.

I talked with a couple people at the start of Susitna 100 (midFeb) last
year. They had their cb tubes insulated with what appeared to be either
the UD insulation or pipe insulation covered with duct tape. They need
to have about 15lb of gear or more, so most runners haul gear on a sled,
but wear cb. In that context, some have the fluid-only cb and wear that
under shell. I'm going to try to chat with more folks this year since
I'm getting so I know some of the people from other activities.

But everyone said to be sure to drink to keep that mouthpiece open - no
matter how much insulation. The obvious question that pops into mind
(well, my mind, anyway) is does this force too much drinking

I'd speculate all you need is a mouthful every
10 minutes or so to keep it flowing.

Quoted message said:

and that's
why 40% were hyponatremic in one study or were the "hyponatremic" folks
following some ACSM recommendation to drink 1 liter / hr or did the
study divide the competitors into hyponatremic or not based on an
arbitrary division line within the subjects, rather than a truly
fuctional one. IOW, were their "hyponatremic" subjects truly
hyponatremic or just have lower electrolyte concentrations than the
other subjects. This is what's been driving some of my questions, both
as to fluids and electrolytes.

I'd say the latter, since 1 L/hr hardly seems a
hyponatremia situation to me. Heck, I drink that
when just mowing the lawn 🙂 Were they drinking
electrolytes or just water. That's the question..

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
"After 26 hours 38 minutes, we accomplished our mission, and the next
day were fortunate to read about our adventure in the sports section of
the local papers rather than the obituaries."
-Dean Karnazes recounting their running of the WS100 trail in winter.

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from dot.h@#duh?att.net of
01 Jan 2005:

Then Phil drew me in 😉

Oops. Was that bad?

No. Just that I recognize that most people here aren't running under the
same conditions as myself, so I refrain from more general or Alaskanized
replies unless I see there's a need for it. "Cold" to some people may be
20-30F, where many of these issues aren't that significant, esp. for the
duration of runs most people here do. The OP hadn't really given much
information to get a feeling for whether frozen fluids was really an
issue or not (or maybe that was a treat he had yet to experience 😉 ) so
I wasn't going to say anything unless he said something.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would agree if running in "cool" temperatures, although I've found I
need the fluids for much over about 1:15-1:30 or I'm toast

Quoted message said:

(based on

Quoted message said:

the way I've trained) - and needs increase when temps get lower (yes,
that's lower) than that, to a certain extent because of the drier air.

How dry? In the winter it gets to be in the 30-40% humidity range,
compared with 60-80% in the summer.

We've been around 0-20F, 60-80% *relative* humidity the last few days. I
haven't gone back and looked at last winter, but I thought we might be
closer to 30-40%, maybe even 10-20% with the really cold temps (-20F). I
have not yet felt a need to cover my mouth yet to keep moisture in the
air and usually hits around +10F and below. My throat has been a little
dry but I found fluid relieved some of that so maybe we do get lower rel
humidity usually, I'm getting more adapted to it, or I'm using fluids
rather than balaclava to relieve dryness? I notice Fairbanks is also
around the same humidity right now and I thought they're usually lower.

BUT 0F air at 70% rel humidity holds much less moisture than 80F, 70%
rel humidity. When that 0F air enters nasal passageways and continues to
lungs, it warms to body temperature 98+F, and absorbs moisture up to
100% humidity, probably mostly from the lungs but some from the
passageway liners. It's important but whether it makes the fluid
requirements at -20F equal to those at +80F, I doubt it.

Quoted message said:

I hadn't noticed my fluid needs
decreasing.

Tom and I are saying that fluid needs to not decrease as much as some
people think - at least for "many" people. Some people think fluid needs
reduce with lower temperatures, and I think they may slightly from, say,
90F to, say, 40F (numbers pulled out of sky), since sweat and need for
cooling should theoretically be reduced. But if you're not seeing a
reduced need maybe that also is not necessarily true. But the body
sweats to some extent regardless of temperature. Additionally, when
temperatures get below about 0 to +10F, it feels like the air just
dehydrates the lungs because of the dryness.

Quoted message said:

I don't feel any stomach sloshing and I don't have the urge
to urinate during the long runs. So I assume I'm still hydrating
properly. I do have to remind myself to drink when it's cooler.

Quoted message said:

Usually somewhere around 20oz/hr works about right for me in most
temperatures where I run (-15F to +70F).

About 36 oz per hour for me, regardless of temps, 30F to 85F.

Interesting.

So I may be

Quoted message said:

over-hydrating in the winter or under-hydrating in the summer. I do feel
better after a long run in cooler temps, but that me be due to other
problems with running in the heat.

Quoted message said:

*If* I reach the point of
being able to run in warmer temperatures sufficiently that I can do
more than slog, I expect fluid needs would increase above +60F.

How much of the year is it over 60F?

In a hot year like this past one, most of our summer (say 2-3 months)
was above 60F. We set record for most days above 70F, and I can't
remember if it was 24 days or 40. Usually temperatures in the 80s are
counted on one hand. But places in the state still had forest fires
burning when they should be getting snow. Gave new meaning
to the term baked Alaska 🙁

In a more normal (=wet) year, a typical late summer day is probably in
the 50s with rain, or at least overcast. Late May and June may be warm
and sunny - and typically that's when we get our few days of 60-70F. So
in a normal year, say 5% above 60F, I'm guessing.

Since I've been in the field a lot in the past, I don't have much
experience at running either in heat or rain.

Quoted message said:

What is slog? Slow jog? Shuffle a
log? Sleigh with a dog?

Very slow jog 😉 For some reason this summer, I could barely move when
it was above 70F - not sure if I was overall tired from other stuff, the
heat, the *continuous* heat without relief (we don't cool off at
"night"😉, lack of heat adaptation or what. In 2003, I was able to run my
hills even above 80F on those couple days when that happened. But I
could sweat fine last in 2003. In 2004, I was having a lot of problems
sweating in the warm temperatures - not sure if that's related or not.

Quoted message said:

IMO, that's one of the things you have to figure
out for yourself (because everyone's different) by doing the long runs
and trying various things. If you've only got a few long runs to figure
it out, then you just hope you get things right very quickly.

I agree. I think that's one of the drawbacks of some of the canned
programs - unless they have a section dealing with hydration and fuels.
You build miles by the program, but not necessarily the experience in
the other aspects needed.

This is an aside, but since I'm babbling anyway 😉, the first year I ran
(still on roads), I built up to about 2 hr, 9mi and kinda had this,
but "what if?" feeling. Then the "what ifs" hit for the next 2 yr. I'm
just now getting close to being back where I was (on trails now), but I
feel I can handle a *lot* more situations with a broader experience
background. My peak weekly mileage still isn't close to where it was 3
yr ago, but I tend to pack more experience into each mile now 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In my case, I also tend to try to stay reasonably hydrated / fueled by
the end in case I have problems driving home - or stop to help someone
who has slid off in the ditch (one of our snowshoers after the last
race. I bought new snow tires for my car this year because of that
road last year.) - or a road closure for whatever reason.

So you have post-run adventures as well? No wonder you need so much
fluid. You need to be super woman after your workout. ;-)

Actually, a guy with a macho truck had stopped first but didn't have his
normal tow strap with him. I contributed a snow shovel, which didn't
help that much, but kinda flagged the couple cars so they wouldn't run
into the cable he was trying to use. Finally someone else came with
strap that they put on the macho truck, I stopped traffic from the
downhill direction, and they got him out. Everyone wished everyone else
a merry christmas and went home, saving the guy a AAA call.

I think that plus the really nasty ice we had the last day of work has
had me running mostly from the house this week with an occasional trip
to trails for ss or ski. There's enough snow in the gutters now that I
can run on uncrowned surface there so no need to get the car out.

Dot

--
"After 26 hours 38 minutes, we accomplished our mission, and the next
day were fortunate to read about our adventure in the sports section of
the local papers rather than the obituaries."
-Dean Karnazes recounting their running of the WS100 trail in winter.