Was Oscar Clean?

Jack Hollis said:

What's the odds?

Is it coming down to being the best cheater?

Should they, to be fair, do an exo/T test on one of Oscar's samples.

Maybe Oscar was cheating as well. Nothing would seem surprising after
this summer's events. After all, Oscar rode for Phonak, and Phonak
seemed to have a lot of trouble with doping.

But if you change the testing protocol in this manner, where do you
stop? Do we go back and test Basso's Giro samples? Should they re-test
Armstrong's 2005 samples? Do we unseal the 1999 Armstrong test on the B
sample and pull that crown if it shows doping?

If we disqualify Oscar as well, does Kloden win? But was Kloden ever
tested at all, since, IIRC, he was never in yellow and didn't win a
stage?

It's not a question of fairness, since these drugs have been banned for
some time and the testing protocol isn't (so far as I know) part of a
master union agreement. But it is a question of where things should
stop. I don't know.

"Bob Dole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jack Hollis said:

What's the odds?

Is it coming down to being the best cheater?

Should they, to be fair, do an exo/T test on one of Oscar's samples.

Maybe Oscar was cheating as well. Nothing would seem surprising after
this summer's events. After all, Oscar rode for Phonak, and Phonak
seemed to have a lot of trouble with doping.

But if you change the testing protocol in this manner, where do you
stop? Do we go back and test Basso's Giro samples? Should they re-test
Armstrong's 2005 samples? Do we unseal the 1999 Armstrong test on the B
sample and pull that crown if it shows doping?

Aren't the B samples destroyed after a while?

coldbeer! said:

"Bob Dole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jack Hollis said:

What's the odds?

Is it coming down to being the best cheater?

Should they, to be fair, do an exo/T test on one of Oscar's samples.

Maybe Oscar was cheating as well. Nothing would seem surprising after
this summer's events. After all, Oscar rode for Phonak, and Phonak
seemed to have a lot of trouble with doping.

But if you change the testing protocol in this manner, where do you
stop? Do we go back and test Basso's Giro samples? Should they re-test
Armstrong's 2005 samples? Do we unseal the 1999 Armstrong test on the B
sample and pull that crown if it shows doping?

Aren't the B samples destroyed after a while?

http://velonews.com/galleries/contest42/Donner%20Pass%20July%202006%20-%20by%20Brent%20Warner.html

Oscar sure is acting pretty sanctimonous to assume he would have won if
landis had lost. For one thing, I think Landis probably would have done
better without the drugs. Look at all the people who thing smoking,
caffeine, marijuani, etc improve their lives. All the anti-depressants.
I would be surprised if Oscar did not use drugs.

Jack Hollis said:

What's the odds?

Is it coming down to being the best cheater?

Should they, to be fair, do an exo/T test on one of Oscar's samples.

"Jack Hollis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the odds?

Is it coming down to being the best cheater?

Should they, to be fair, do an exo/T test on one of Oscar's samples.

Did he ever say, i deserve to win TdF because I'm clean?
That's the answer.

in message <[email hidden]>, Jack Hollis

(') said:

What's the odds?

He passed all the tests, that's for sure. Further testing won't find
anything different.

Me? I think he's clean. I think 75% of them are clean. I know I could be
wrong.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those
who are now possible remain possible -- Michael Bakunin

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Jack Hollis

(') said:

What's the odds?

He passed all the tests, that's for sure. Further testing won't find
anything different.

Will they test some of his samples from earlier stages? If you
eliminate Landis, then does that imply some additional testing? Like
on the final stage, for instance?

Quoted message said:

Me? I think he's clean. I think 75% of them are clean. I know I could be
wrong.

I get the impression from "Breaking the Chain" that few of the older
riders are clean, they just dope below the testing limits. The younger
ones tend to be clean, probably because drugs cannot help them with
their limiting factor (experience).

But, the testing should be better now than back in the late 90s, then
again the dope is better too.

One would hope they are better about preventing the switching of urine
samples, but who knows?

Quoted message said:

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those
who are now possible remain possible -- Michael Bakunin

coldbeer! said:

Aren't the B samples destroyed after a while?

You'd think so. I'm getting a mental image of a giant cold storage
warehouse somewhere, with thousands of ... well, you get the picture,
and it's not a pretty one.

But under at least some conditions test samples are not destroyed. For
example, they kept some from the 1999 TdF that were used for research
years later to test improved testing methods. This would have been a
quiet little science project if L'Equipe hadn't contended they'd broken
the blind code and Armstrong had tested positive for a banned substance.

Quoted message said:

Oscar sure is acting pretty sanctimonous to assume he would have won if
landis had lost.

Oscar won because the other teams didn't consider him to be a threat
and let him go on a breakaway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But if you change the testing protocol in this manner, where do you
stop? Do we go back and test Basso's Giro samples? Should they re-test
Armstrong's 2005 samples? Do we unseal the 1999 Armstrong test on the B
sample and pull that crown if it shows doping?

The only time you're going to get an exoT test is if your ratio test
comes up positive. So you can take exoT as long as you keep the T
levels within reasonable limits and keep the epiT in the proper ratio.
With a testing protocol like that I assume that using exoT would be
common.

Jack Hollis said:

Quoted message said:

Oscar sure is acting pretty sanctimonous to assume he would have won if
landis had lost.

Oscar won because the other teams didn't consider him to be a threat
and let him go on a breakaway.

And, he stayed with the leaders (with a GC rank of 1 or 2) for the rest
of the race, including all the stages in the Alps and the final time
trial. He did not telegraph this ability in the 1st time trial and in
the Pyrennes

Bob Dole wrote:
:: Jack Hollis wrote:
::: What's the odds?
:::
::: Is it coming down to being the best cheater?
:::
::: Should they, to be fair, do an exo/T test on one of Oscar's samples.
::
:: Maybe Oscar was cheating as well.

Please refresh my memory: Didn't Oscar put forth of his best time trails
ever on that stage where Landis regained the lead?

Nothing would seem surprising after
:: this summer's events. After all, Oscar rode for Phonak, and Phonak
:: seemed to have a lot of trouble with doping.
::
:: But if you change the testing protocol in this manner, where do you
:: stop? Do we go back and test Basso's Giro samples? Should they
:: re-test Armstrong's 2005 samples? Do we unseal the 1999 Armstrong
:: test on the B sample and pull that crown if it shows doping?
::
:: If we disqualify Oscar as well, does Kloden win? But was Kloden ever
:: tested at all, since, IIRC, he was never in yellow and didn't win a
:: stage?
::
:: It's not a question of fairness, since these drugs have been banned
:: for some time and the testing protocol isn't (so far as I know) part
:: of a master union agreement. But it is a question of where things
:: should stop. I don't know.

in 521937 20060808 214524 'Roger Zoul said:

Please refresh my memory: Didn't Oscar put forth of his best time trails
ever on that stage where Landis regained the lead?

Of course he did, he had incentive, and that's what matters most in time-trialling.

Bob Martin wrote:
:: in 521937 20060808 214524 "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>
:: wrote:
::
::: Please refresh my memory: Didn't Oscar put forth of his best time
::: trails ever on that stage where Landis regained the lead?
::
:: Of course he did, he had incentive, and that's what matters most in
:: time-trialling.

And he's never had incentive before? Floyd had incentive too, but now he's
on the hook of doping.
So, was Oscar clean?

Bob Martin said:

in 521937 20060808 214524 'Roger Zoul said:

Please refresh my memory: Didn't Oscar put forth of his best time trails
ever on that stage where Landis regained the lead?

Of course he did, he had incentive, and that's what matters most in time-trialling.

That and panache.

But he wasn't tested for dope that day.

Ron