WARNING! - Real-Design Sealed Bearing Hubs

I had a set of Real Designs wheels - total [censored]. The rear axle was
some screwy design with Aluminum that eventually worked its way out of
the press-fit design causing the freehub body to slide out from the hub
(only to be held on the axle by the frame). The internals were a
rusty, crudy mess front and rear. I relegated the wheels to trainer
bike use only.

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

I got a set of wheels with these hubs with a new Litespeed bicycle
late last year. The bike now has about 3K miles on it under 96% dry
conditions.

Recently, I started having all kinds of drive train noise. It
originally sounded like BB noise so I started from there and worked my
way back.

I finally found the source of all of the noise when I took the rear
hub apart. The bearings being sealed cartridge types were in fine
shape. The freehub on the other hand was a real mess.

The first thing I noticed was that the freehub appeared to have
totally ineffective sealing. There was all sorts of crud and grit
inside. I suspect that most of this got in there when I was caught in
the rain about 10 miles into a century in mid-April. Having supposedly
sealed hubs I never thought to take the hub apart to look at the
innards.

I cleaned everything up and before I re-assembled it I did a test
fitting of the seal. It was fall off loose when put on the freehub OR
in the hub body. Therefore the only real seal you get is a thin layer
of grease which fills the gaps. This probably lasts all of 10 minutes
riding in the rain.

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

Another thing I found was that the positioning stop for the circular
spring that holds the pawls had broken and the spring slid around such
that only 2 of the pawls had any outward tension on them. I
temporarily patched this with a drop of J-B Weld but the freehub body
will need to be replaced.

I called Real-Design and mentioned both of these issues. They said
that they hadn't heard of the moving spring issue but the freehub body
would have to be returned through a dealer for replacement. The person
also noted that the freehub seal was "sort of loose" but that it
hadn't become an major issue at least as a warranty concern. Maybe
they expect these wheels to only last the year warranty period and
then it becomes the buyers problem.

The bottom line is that if you have wheel that uses these hubs they
should not be ridden in the rain and if you do they should be
immediately pulled apart and the freehub rebuilt. At least these
wheels disassemble easily. All it takes is to remove the skewer and
put a 5mm allen wrench in each side of the axle.

Best regards,

Steve

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

I got a set of wheels with these hubs with a new Litespeed bicycle
late last year. The bike now has about 3K miles on it under 96% dry
conditions.

Recently, I started having all kinds of drive train noise. It
originally sounded like BB noise so I started from there and worked my
way back.

I finally found the source of all of the noise when I took the rear
hub apart. The bearings being sealed cartridge types were in fine
shape. The freehub on the other hand was a real mess.

The first thing I noticed was that the freehub appeared to have
totally ineffective sealing. There was all sorts of crud and grit
inside. I suspect that most of this got in there when I was caught in
the rain about 10 miles into a century in mid-April. Having supposedly
sealed hubs I never thought to take the hub apart to look at the
innards.

I cleaned everything up and before I re-assembled it I did a test
fitting of the seal. It was fall off loose when put on the freehub OR
in the hub body. Therefore the only real seal you get is a thin layer
of grease which fills the gaps. This probably lasts all of 10 minutes
riding in the rain.

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

If Campag system-Record/Chorus/Centaur, if shimano-7700 or Ultegra...CK
are too complicated to be worth it. Hugi are nice as are Phil(sealed
the very best, but shimano only.

I just overhauled another 7800 rear and was again impressed by how
complicated it was(balls not in cages) and how poorly the freehub
bearings survived(gritty after only a few miles, no replacements except
the whole body).

Quoted message said:

Another thing I found was that the positioning stop for the circular
spring that holds the pawls had broken and the spring slid around such
that only 2 of the pawls had any outward tension on them. I
temporarily patched this with a drop of J-B Weld but the freehub body
will need to be replaced.

I called Real-Design and mentioned both of these issues. They said
that they hadn't heard of the moving spring issue but the freehub body
would have to be returned through a dealer for replacement. The person
also noted that the freehub seal was "sort of loose" but that it
hadn't become an major issue at least as a warranty concern. Maybe
they expect these wheels to only last the year warranty period and
then it becomes the buyers problem.

another, " gee we have never heard of that' type response...I think
inside guys all go to the same school to learn how to say that w/o
giggling...A lot of bikes that are OEM as complete bikes come with
crappy but flashy wheels...many bike shops that sell 'em, don't
warranty them, service them...tell ya to call the maker...crappola..

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is that if you have wheel that uses these hubs they
should not be ridden in the rain and if you do they should be
immediately pulled apart and the freehub rebuilt. At least these
wheels disassemble easily. All it takes is to remove the skewer and
put a 5mm allen wrench in each side of the axle.

Best regards,

Steve

Steve Sr. said:

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

Shimano.

Shimano hubs are probably the best deal in bicycle components. I did
replace an Ultegra (road) freehub once, I just swapped the freehub body
with a MTB unit. You can often buy complete MTB freehubs for $25, I
bought a couple of hubs on sale just for parts.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

If Campag system-Record/Chorus/Centaur, if shimano-7700 or Ultegra...CK
are too complicated to be worth it. Hugi are nice as are Phil(sealed
the very best, but shimano only.

I just overhauled another 7800 rear and was again impressed by how
complicated it was(balls not in cages) and how poorly the freehub
bearings survived(gritty after only a few miles, no replacements except
the whole body).

Peter,

What do you think of the American Classic hubs for MTB? I don't care
for the alum cassette body, but the rest looks nice. Any experiences?

-nate

Real Design's products have been sucking hard ever since the company
closed it's doors and was sold off to Profile Design about 3 or 4 years
ago.

i know about 6 road riders who've had nothing but trouble with the Real
Design hubs.

save yourself lots of hassle, toss then out, and get something else....

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

I got a set of wheels with these hubs with a new Litespeed bicycle
late last year. The bike now has about 3K miles on it under 96% dry
conditions.

Recently, I started having all kinds of drive train noise. It
originally sounded like BB noise so I started from there and worked my
way back.

I finally found the source of all of the noise when I took the rear
hub apart. The bearings being sealed cartridge types were in fine
shape. The freehub on the other hand was a real mess.

The first thing I noticed was that the freehub appeared to have
totally ineffective sealing. There was all sorts of crud and grit
inside. I suspect that most of this got in there when I was caught in
the rain about 10 miles into a century in mid-April. Having supposedly
sealed hubs I never thought to take the hub apart to look at the
innards.

I cleaned everything up and before I re-assembled it I did a test
fitting of the seal. It was fall off loose when put on the freehub OR
in the hub body. Therefore the only real seal you get is a thin layer
of grease which fills the gaps. This probably lasts all of 10 minutes
riding in the rain.

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

Another thing I found was that the positioning stop for the circular
spring that holds the pawls had broken and the spring slid around such
that only 2 of the pawls had any outward tension on them. I
temporarily patched this with a drop of J-B Weld but the freehub body
will need to be replaced.

I called Real-Design and mentioned both of these issues. They said
that they hadn't heard of the moving spring issue but the freehub body
would have to be returned through a dealer for replacement. The person
also noted that the freehub seal was "sort of loose" but that it
hadn't become an major issue at least as a warranty concern. Maybe
they expect these wheels to only last the year warranty period and
then it becomes the buyers problem.

The bottom line is that if you have wheel that uses these hubs they
should not be ridden in the rain and if you do they should be
immediately pulled apart and the freehub rebuilt. At least these
wheels disassemble easily. All it takes is to remove the skewer and
put a 5mm allen wrench in each side of the axle.

Best regards,

Steve

"Llatikcuf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

If Campag system-Record/Chorus/Centaur, if shimano-7700 or Ultegra...CK
are too complicated to be worth it. Hugi are nice as are Phil(sealed
the very best, but shimano only.

I just overhauled another 7800 rear and was again impressed by how
complicated it was(balls not in cages) and how poorly the freehub
bearings survived(gritty after only a few miles, no replacements except
the whole body).

Peter,

What do you think of the American Classic hubs for MTB? I don't care
for the alum cassette body, but the rest looks nice. Any experiences?

I have the WTB Laserdisc Lite hubs, which are licensed copies of the AC
hubs. They seem to work fine, and I don't think they're affected by the
recall. AC MTB hubs are somewhat rare compared to road hubs. They're
light, and I tend to ride them in the dry only. They're also draggy, so I
try not to freewheel 😉

--
Phil

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

I got a set of wheels with these hubs with a new Litespeed bicycle
late last year. The bike now has about 3K miles on it under 96% dry
conditions.

Recently, I started having all kinds of drive train noise. It
originally sounded like BB noise so I started from there and worked my
way back.

I finally found the source of all of the noise when I took the rear
hub apart. The bearings being sealed cartridge types were in fine
shape. The freehub on the other hand was a real mess.

The first thing I noticed was that the freehub appeared to have
totally ineffective sealing. There was all sorts of crud and grit
inside. I suspect that most of this got in there when I was caught in
the rain about 10 miles into a century in mid-April. Having supposedly
sealed hubs I never thought to take the hub apart to look at the
innards.

I cleaned everything up and before I re-assembled it I did a test
fitting of the seal. It was fall off loose when put on the freehub OR
in the hub body. Therefore the only real seal you get is a thin layer
of grease which fills the gaps. This probably lasts all of 10 minutes
riding in the rain.

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

Another thing I found was that the positioning stop for the circular
spring that holds the pawls had broken and the spring slid around such
that only 2 of the pawls had any outward tension on them. I
temporarily patched this with a drop of J-B Weld but the freehub body
will need to be replaced.

I called Real-Design and mentioned both of these issues. They said
that they hadn't heard of the moving spring issue but the freehub body
would have to be returned through a dealer for replacement. The person
also noted that the freehub seal was "sort of loose" but that it
hadn't become an major issue at least as a warranty concern. Maybe
they expect these wheels to only last the year warranty period and
then it becomes the buyers problem.

The bottom line is that if you have wheel that uses these hubs they
should not be ridden in the rain and if you do they should be
immediately pulled apart and the freehub rebuilt. At least these
wheels disassemble easily. All it takes is to remove the skewer and
put a 5mm allen wrench in each side of the axle.

Best regards,

Steve

My daily commuter/grocery bike/dinner run bike is running on 1979 Phil
Wood hubs - have had them serviced a couple of time ... IN 27 years ...
and some of that was covered under warranty (the most recent was in
April of this year - try to find another mfr that does warranty
maintenance on a 27 year old component!). I have 3 year old Phil
hubs on my touring bike, with 10K miles on them including a lot of rain
and some snow, and they are still smooth and solid. I have/service a
lot of hubs - Campy, Shimano, Chris King (also nice, if noisy), etc.
but IMHO the Phil's may be expensive up-front but they pay off in the
long run.

- rick

Llatikcuf said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

If Campag system-Record/Chorus/Centaur, if shimano-7700 or Ultegra...CK
are too complicated to be worth it. Hugi are nice as are Phil(sealed
the very best, but shimano only.

I just overhauled another 7800 rear and was again impressed by how
complicated it was(balls not in cages) and how poorly the freehub
bearings survived(gritty after only a few miles, no replacements except
the whole body).

Peter,

What do you think of the American Classic hubs for MTB? I don't care
for the alum cassette body, but the rest looks nice. Any experiences?

-nate

I think they are junque-just mucked with one Friday....too complicated,
too small bearings, not impressed.

Andrew F Martin said:

I had a set of Real Designs wheels - total [censored]. The rear axle was
some screwy design with Aluminum that eventually worked its way out of
the press-fit design causing the freehub body to slide out from the hub
(only to be held on the axle by the frame). The internals were a
rusty, crudy mess front and rear. I relegated the wheels to trainer
bike use only.

I can see that if the bearings in the freehub ever get loose the
freehub will do as you say. I think these are probably press fit maybe
with non-permanent loc-tite. So far this has not been a problem.

The freehub and sealing seems to be about the worst of these wheels.
The hub bearings themselves seem pretty well protected. The spokes are
all straightpull making them less likely to break and if one does they
are readily replaceable in the field i.e. you don't have to remove the
cassette.

I was almost pleasantly surprised by the design until I looked at the
freehub.

Steve

Quoted message said:

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

I got a set of wheels with these hubs with a new Litespeed bicycle
late last year. The bike now has about 3K miles on it under 96% dry
conditions.

Recently, I started having all kinds of drive train noise. It
originally sounded like BB noise so I started from there and worked my
way back.

I finally found the source of all of the noise when I took the rear
hub apart. The bearings being sealed cartridge types were in fine
shape. The freehub on the other hand was a real mess.

The first thing I noticed was that the freehub appeared to have
totally ineffective sealing. There was all sorts of crud and grit
inside. I suspect that most of this got in there when I was caught in
the rain about 10 miles into a century in mid-April. Having supposedly
sealed hubs I never thought to take the hub apart to look at the
innards.

I cleaned everything up and before I re-assembled it I did a test
fitting of the seal. It was fall off loose when put on the freehub OR
in the hub body. Therefore the only real seal you get is a thin layer
of grease which fills the gaps. This probably lasts all of 10 minutes
riding in the rain.

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

Another thing I found was that the positioning stop for the circular
spring that holds the pawls had broken and the spring slid around such
that only 2 of the pawls had any outward tension on them. I
temporarily patched this with a drop of J-B Weld but the freehub body
will need to be replaced.

I called Real-Design and mentioned both of these issues. They said
that they hadn't heard of the moving spring issue but the freehub body
would have to be returned through a dealer for replacement. The person
also noted that the freehub seal was "sort of loose" but that it
hadn't become an major issue at least as a warranty concern. Maybe
they expect these wheels to only last the year warranty period and
then it becomes the buyers problem.

The bottom line is that if you have wheel that uses these hubs they
should not be ridden in the rain and if you do they should be
immediately pulled apart and the freehub rebuilt. At least these
wheels disassemble easily. All it takes is to remove the skewer and
put a 5mm allen wrench in each side of the axle.

Best regards,

Steve

Peter Cole said:

Steve Sr. said:

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

Shimano.

Shimano hubs are probably the best deal in bicycle components. I did
replace an Ultegra (road) freehub once, I just swapped the freehub body
with a MTB unit. You can often buy complete MTB freehubs for $25, I
bought a couple of hubs on sale just for parts.

So are the MTB freehubs better sealed than the regular road freehubs?
if so this would sound like a good upgrade for Shimano hubs.

Steve

On 3 Jun 2006 14:51:16 -0700, "sal bass" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Real Design's products have been sucking hard ever since the company
closed it's doors and was sold off to Profile Design about 3 or 4 years
ago.

Actually they are now part of the American Bicycle Group, the folks
that bring you litespeed, merlin and others.

Quoted message said:

i know about 6 road riders who've had nothing but trouble with the Real
Design hubs.

Thanks for the corroboration. Were these problems with the rear hubs
only? The fronts look like they are pretty solid for relatively low
spoke count wheels.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

save yourself lots of hassle, toss then out, and get something else....

I will eventually but I hate to have shelled out what I did for a new
bike and then turn around and replace the wheels right away. For now
i'll have to be careful to not ride in the rain and occasionally pull
the freehub off and re-lube it. At least it comes off real easy. you
don't even have to remove the cassette.

Steve

Quoted message said:

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

I got a set of wheels with these hubs with a new Litespeed bicycle
late last year. The bike now has about 3K miles on it under 96% dry
conditions.

Recently, I started having all kinds of drive train noise. It
originally sounded like BB noise so I started from there and worked my
way back.

I finally found the source of all of the noise when I took the rear
hub apart. The bearings being sealed cartridge types were in fine
shape. The freehub on the other hand was a real mess.

The first thing I noticed was that the freehub appeared to have
totally ineffective sealing. There was all sorts of crud and grit
inside. I suspect that most of this got in there when I was caught in
the rain about 10 miles into a century in mid-April. Having supposedly
sealed hubs I never thought to take the hub apart to look at the
innards.

I cleaned everything up and before I re-assembled it I did a test
fitting of the seal. It was fall off loose when put on the freehub OR
in the hub body. Therefore the only real seal you get is a thin layer
of grease which fills the gaps. This probably lasts all of 10 minutes
riding in the rain.

So why bother with sealed bearing hubs if the freehub is barely sealed
at all? Is this the difference that makes the Chris King and Phil Wood
hubs worth their weight in gold? Are there any other hubs that have
better freehub sealing or is this the Achilles heel of rear hubs?

Another thing I found was that the positioning stop for the circular
spring that holds the pawls had broken and the spring slid around such
that only 2 of the pawls had any outward tension on them. I
temporarily patched this with a drop of J-B Weld but the freehub body
will need to be replaced.

I called Real-Design and mentioned both of these issues. They said
that they hadn't heard of the moving spring issue but the freehub body
would have to be returned through a dealer for replacement. The person
also noted that the freehub seal was "sort of loose" but that it
hadn't become an major issue at least as a warranty concern. Maybe
they expect these wheels to only last the year warranty period and
then it becomes the buyers problem.

The bottom line is that if you have wheel that uses these hubs they
should not be ridden in the rain and if you do they should be
immediately pulled apart and the freehub rebuilt. At least these
wheels disassemble easily. All it takes is to remove the skewer and
put a 5mm allen wrench in each side of the axle.

Best regards,

Steve

Steve Sr. said:

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:57:45 -0400, Peter Cole
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano hubs are probably the best deal in bicycle components. I did
replace an Ultegra (road) freehub once, I just swapped the freehub body
with a MTB unit. You can often buy complete MTB freehubs for $25, I
bought a couple of hubs on sale just for parts.

So are the MTB freehubs better sealed than the regular road freehubs?
if so this would sound like a good upgrade for Shimano hubs.

They appear to be.

I've had a set of Real Design wheels for 2 years and have about 2500 miles on them. They have never needed truing from day one. I follow the recommended freehub clean / repack about every 1000 miles and have not had any problems with the hub or hub body. The freehub seal is adequate if placed correctly on the freehub body. I once hauled my bike on the roof of my car in heavy rain for 6 hours at 70mph and have ridden in rain a number of times. I have not seen any sign of moisture getting into my hubs or freehub body.
That's my experience. So I guess they are like most products; some are great, others have issues. My Ultegra 6500 rear hub is noisy and the freehub sounds loud with only 1500 miles on it. My past 600 hubset had 35000 miles on it and never was a problem with only annual clean / re-grease.
Jim