Walking with Poles

Amanda said:

Never having walked that far in one go I am looking into the training
and equipment very carefully. I have some fabulous boots and have just
bought some trail shoes (possibly to change into towards the end), but

Consider wearing the shoes for the whole thing. It'll mean less weight
on your feet and consequently less fatigue over the distance. Give them
a try on your next walk and see if you really need the boots.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure about walking with poles.

For some background and tips see
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/poles.htm

Quoted message said:

Someone else walking with me suggested poles, but never having walked
with then I don't know how helpful they will be, and to be honest I do
not want to buy a pair (£60-£70) only to find then a hindrance.

No need to spend that much: Aldi had some last week for a fraction of
that that would have been fine.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 18 Apr 2005 06:53:54 -0700, [email hidden] (Amanda) wrote:

| At the end of the summer I will be doing the Lyke Wake Walk, which is
| a 40 mile walk across the Yorkshire Moors.
|
| Never having walked that far in one go I am looking into the training
| and equipment very carefully. I have some fabulous boots and have just
| bought some trail shoes (possibly to change into towards the end), but
| I'm not sure about walking with poles.
|
| Someone else walking with me suggested poles, but never having walked
| with then I don't know how helpful they will be, and to be honest I do
| not want to buy a pair (£60-£70) only to find then a hindrance.
|
| Can anyone offer any advice?

Go to Lidl this Thursday they have poles for GBP6.99 per pair.
http://www.lidl.co.uk/gb/index.nsf/pages/c.o.oow.20050421.index
Arrive within the first hour they are open or they may be all gone.

They will allow you to find if you like poles at reasonable cost.
You may well find that you do not need the expensive ones, because Lidl
stuff is surprisingly good quality at the price.

--
Dave F
Howard Flight was right

No need to spend that much: Aldi had some last week for a fraction of
that that would have been fine.

And the same trekking poles are on sale this Thursday from Lidl - 6.99 each

http://www.lidl.co.uk/gb/index.nsf/pages/c.o.oow.20050421.index

--
sandy saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
email: saunders.sandy at ntlworld.com

'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still
brings the same excitement'

Quoted message said:

At the end of the summer I will be doing the Lyke Wake Walk, which is
a 40 mile walk across the Yorkshire Moors.

Never having walked that far in one go I am looking into the training
and equipment very carefully. I have some fabulous boots and have just
bought some trail shoes (possibly to change into towards the end), but
I'm not sure about walking with poles.

Someone else walking with me suggested poles, but never having walked
with then I don't know how helpful they will be, and to be honest I do
not want to buy a pair (£60-£70) only to find then a hindrance.

Can anyone offer any advice?

Some time ago, TGO Magazine (The Great Outdoors) carried out a study using
Doctors and other highly qualified people into the use of, and benefit from,
trekking poles. The conclusion was that over a 10 mile mountain walk, the
poles absorbed in the region of 60% of the shock to the knees and hips. The
stress on these joints was about a few hundred tons (I think that was the
figure quoted). Now, that didn't get me started on them, but I have been
using them for a few years, both in mountain areas and locally on the South
Downs. I find them a great asset to my walking capability in the stress
they take away from my lower limbs.

One thing that always intrigues me through, is that often I see walkers
going up/down steep rocky sections in the Lake District ..... with two
excellent poles on their rucksacks! I feel if you are going to get some,
make sure it is two ...... and always use both.

(Sorry about the duplicate post about Lidl's trekking pole sale ..... didn't
read the other posting.)

--
sandy saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
email: saunders.sandy at ntlworld.com

'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still
brings the same excitement'

Quoted message said:

No need to spend that much: Aldi had some last week for a fraction of

Quoted message said:

that that would have been fine.

Just purchased two poles for £15.98 @ Aldi, Peterborough!

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] (Amanda) contains these words:

Quoted message said:

At the end of the summer I will be doing the Lyke Wake Walk, which is
a 40 mile walk across the Yorkshire Moors.

Quoted message said:

Never having walked that far in one go I am looking into the training
and equipment very carefully. I have some fabulous boots and have just
bought some trail shoes (possibly to change into towards the end), but
I'm not sure about walking with poles.

Quoted message said:

Someone else walking with me suggested poles, but never having walked
with then I don't know how helpful they will be, and to be honest I do
not want to buy a pair (£60-£70) only to find then a hindrance.

Quoted message said:

Can anyone offer any advice?

Yes, don't use poles. They will make your arms very tired and, unless
you already have quite exceptional arm strength, will not significantly
help you to cover more ground. The few situations where poles would
assist - river crossings and ascent and descent of really steep ground
are in short supply on the LWW which is relatively flat.

I dug out a few notes I made just prior to my second crossing in 1971
but since the information was culled from the 1" Tourist Map the figures
are doubtless less accurate than are required by todays discriminating
walkers.

The 4 sections quoted are Beacon Hill - Hasty Bank - Rosedale Head -
Ellerbeck Bridge - Ravenscar.

Section Distance Ascent Naismiths Chapmans
(miles) (feet) Rule times Rule times
hrs min hrs min

1 8.5 2100 3 54 2 50
2 8.5 1200 3 26 2 31
3 12.0 700 4 20 3 14
4 9.0 1000 3 30 2 35

Totals 38.0 5000 15 10 11 10

You do of course have to get to the start which adds some ascent and
distance but the amount depends on where your transport leaves you.

ISTR reading recently that the first bit from the start on Beacon Hill
to the first road crossing at Scarth Nick is not often done these days
which makes what is left of the walk not the Lyke Wake Walk IYSWIM.

As to training the best training for walking is walking but thrashing up
high hills on a short day out is not going to help much for the LWW
where what is needed is endurance. There is (comparatively speaking)
little ascent on the LWW and ISTR that a full half of that occurs in the
first 10 miles but after that you still have to keep going for another
30 miles. Most people who frequent this group apparently can't keep up
with Naismith even for 8 hours so unless you are already a strong walker
you will have to keep going for something in excess of 16 hours. And if
you are not at all used to it you are going to suffer towards the end of
the walk from one or more (probably most) of blisters, stiffness, knee
problems and soreness caused by rubbing clothing. But do not despair,
get some long distance training in and some if not all of these will go
away at least till after you have finished and even if not just remember
that in its heyday the LWW attracted large numbers annually, 1000s of
whom actually managed to complete it.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 28 summits
New - 15 (Marilyns 4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 13 (Marilyns 3, Sweats 7, Wainwrights 6, Outlying Fells 0)

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:56:17 GMT, "sandy saunders"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Some time ago, TGO Magazine (The Great Outdoors) carried out a study using
Doctors and other highly qualified people into the use of, and benefit from,
trekking poles. The conclusion was that over a 10 mile mountain walk, the
poles absorbed in the region of 60% of the shock to the knees and hips. The
stress on these joints was about a few hundred tons (I think that was the
figure quoted). Now, that didn't get me started on them, but I have been
using them for a few years, both in mountain areas and locally on the South
Downs. I find them a great asset to my walking capability in the stress
they take away from my lower limbs.

Do you find that your arms get tired from using the poles? I've tried
them twice in the past but wasn't able to get used to them. I've read
so many good things about them, though, that I've often considered
trying again. I've concluded that I find them tiring, and also find it
difficult to benefit from them, because - rather typically for a woman
- I don't have a lot of arm strenght.

Having said that, I'm aware that my knees are becoming less robust
with each passing year, so I've just bought my third and final pair
and intend to take them to Scotland with me. I really hope they'll
help, but I'm concerned that my arms are too weak to take advantage of
them.

Do any pole users have any views on the arm strength issue? Thanks for
any help.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

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(Amanda) said:

Can anyone offer any advice?

Yes, ignore Roger :-)

If you can, then borrow a pole or two and see if you get on with them.
Some (like Roger) don't, others (like, well, most other people) do.

I've just bought some new ones from www.alpkit.com, only £35 the pair
and lighter than the super-lightweight Leki ones.

S.
--
Stop ID cards and the Database State
http://www.no2id.net/

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:40:20 +0100, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Do any pole users have any views on the arm strength issue?

My arms don't get tired, but my wrists do. I get the same thing when
ski-touring, I think it's partly because I put too much weight on
them, partly due to having very weak wrists.

It's still preferable to the pain I used to suffer in my knees though.

S.

--
Stop ID cards and the Database State
http://www.no2id.net/

Unlike Roger, I'm a big fan!

But it depends on whether you're a walker or a scrambler!

As a walker, they're a big help when ascending but even more
descending.

I'm sure my technique using walking poles is not perfect but it does
provide a 'better' workout for the whole body. My arms don't get tired
using poles and I'm not blessed with any singnificant arm muscles.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Do you find that your arms get tired from using the poles?

I use my pole/s for balance rather than anything else and I
don't find my arms getting tired. My legs do - but that's
probably because they have to carry me around on top of them
:-)
--
If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs...
then you've failed to grasp some important aspect of the
situation.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:40:20 +0100, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Do any pole users have any views on the arm strength issue? Thanks for
any help.

IME, your arms will get stronger as you use the poles more. Remember
our trip to Scotland? I didn't use poles on Day 1 and ended up with
very tired legs from tramping through snow and over rough ground. On
Day 2 my shoulders were tired but my legs were not as tired as they
had been the day before.

Yes, I *know* I went to bed at 8:30pm and was too tired to even play
Snap, but imagine if I hadn't used the poles!

I think you may have left it too late to get much benefit from your
poles on your X-Scotland trip. By that I mean that if you use your
poles properly, ie to take some weight off your legs, you really will
feel the effort in your shoulders. However, I would still take them,
as I find them handy for downhill sections and crossing boggy bits.

However! I am not a doctor etc and have had a very trying
relationship with trekking poles.

Judith

Simon Caldwell said:

(Amanda) said:

Can anyone offer any advice?

Yes, ignore Roger :-)

If you can, then borrow a pole or two and see if you get on with them.
Some (like Roger) don't, others (like, well, most other people) do.

I borrowed a pair from a local outdoor shop with a UKP 10.00 deposit.
They were old and in poor condition and the twistlocks were awkward
but they hepled me up the northwest ridge of Catstye Cam and on over
Helvellyn, White Side, Raise, Stybarrow Dodd, Green Side and Sheffield
Pike. I felt quite frisky at the end of all that which previously
would have made me feel I'd done enough for one day. I bought a pair
of Black Diamond Flicklocks after that and have been delighted with
them. I don't use them on metalled roads, on the flat, on shallow
downhill slopes or very steep rocky climbs but on the walks I do that
doesn't amount to much. I've not found them make my arms ache at all,
and I'm an eight and a half stone weakling, and they do wonders in
saving my knees and thigh muscles.

John D.
John Dawson at home in Kendal, Cumbria.
Lake District Walks Web Pages: http://www.lakedistrictwalks.com/
44 detailed walks, 400+ photographs, GPS data, Screen Saver

Peewiglet said:

Do you find that your arms get tired from using the poles?

No, not really. If this were a major issue with Joe and Jo public
then there wouldn't be many XC skiers (skiers use poles for motive
power as well as propping themselves up, so it's a far more
vigorous use of arms than walking poles), but there are...

Quoted message said:

them twice in the past but wasn't able to get used to them. I've read
so many good things about them, though, that I've often considered
trying again. I've concluded that I find them tiring, and also find it
difficult to benefit from them, because - rather typically for a woman
- I don't have a lot of arm strenght.

See above: it's about technique, not power. Aside from the XC ski
community, think about little old ladies with walking sticks.
They're doing exactly what you use walking poles for, but they're
hardly in the running for Gladiators.

Quoted message said:

Having said that, I'm aware that my knees are becoming less robust
with each passing year, so I've just bought my third and final pair
and intend to take them to Scotland with me. I really hope they'll
help, but I'm concerned that my arms are too weak to take advantage of
them.

You're leaning down on them and pushing weight through your bones
if you get it right. Anyone with a modicum of fitness who works on
the technique /can/ get considerable benefit.

I tend not to use my poles so much walking these days, but on long
days I am glad of them.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 18 Apr 2005 17:04:03 -0500, John Dawson <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I bought a pair
of Black Diamond Flicklocks after that and have been delighted with
them. I don't use them on metalled roads, on the flat, on shallow
downhill slopes or very steep rocky climbs but on the walks I do that
doesn't amount to much. I've not found them make my arms ache at all,
and I'm an eight and a half stone weakling, and they do wonders in
saving my knees and thigh muscles.

Many thnaks 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

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Peter Clinch said:

Peewiglet said:

Do you find that your arms get tired from using the poles?

No, not really. If this were a major issue with Joe and Jo public
then there wouldn't be many XC skiers (skiers use poles for motive
power as well as propping themselves up, so it's a far more
vigorous use of arms than walking poles), but there are...

Well, in relative terms there *aren't* many XC skiers :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them twice in the past but wasn't able to get used to them. I've read
so many good things about them, though, that I've often considered
trying again. I've concluded that I find them tiring, and also find it
difficult to benefit from them, because - rather typically for a woman
- I don't have a lot of arm strenght.

See above: it's about technique, not power. Aside from the XC ski
community, think about little old ladies with walking sticks.
They're doing exactly what you use walking poles for, but they're
hardly in the running for Gladiators.

Hmm.... I thought little old ladies used them for balance?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Having said that, I'm aware that my knees are becoming less robust
with each passing year, so I've just bought my third and final pair
and intend to take them to Scotland with me. I really hope they'll
help, but I'm concerned that my arms are too weak to take advantage of
them.

You're leaning down on them and pushing weight through your bones
if you get it right. Anyone with a modicum of fitness who works on
the technique /can/ get considerable benefit.

I tend not to use my poles so much walking these days, but on long
days I am glad of them.

Ok, thanks - I'm certainly hoping to get the hang of it. I think my
knees will soon need the help.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:39:54 +0100, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>
wrote:

| Ok, thanks - I'm certainly hoping to get the hang of it. I think my
| knees will soon need the help.

Old adage.
There are two kinds of walkers.
Those who have bad knees and those who will have bad knees.

--
Dave F
Howard Flight was right

The message <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

It's interesting to me that another woman feels that arm strength is
an issue. I realise that technique is important, but I also wonder
whether blokes are so much stronger in the arm department that you
just don't notice how much effort is required even just to keep moving
the poles along?

It is not just women. I have poor upper arm strength which is maybe why
I find poles next to useless for saving the legs.

An awful lot of tosh is written about poles and most of it just doesn't
add up. Poles don't magic the effort away, they just transfer in from
the strong lower limbs to the weak upper limbs and moreover transfer it
in a way that is mechanically very inefficient while probably upsetting
the rhythm that is very important in walking.

I think the comparison with skiing is misleading. Skiers use poles to
push and the height of the hands and the angles involved are different.
I can't manage anything that involves keeping my arms above shoulder
height for more than a few minutes at a time. I can support myself with
a walking stick providing I can get a straight arm vertically above it
but trying to transmit any meaningful force downwards through a half
bent arm is impossible.

But the proof of the pudding (and Judiths cake) is in the eating. Poles
obviously help some people, if only psychologically, but look around
when you are out walking and you will be lucky to see anyone who is more
than waving their poles around and tickling the ground at every strike.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 28 summits
New - 15 (Marilyns 4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 13 (Marilyns 3, Sweats 7, Wainwrights 6, Outlying Fells 0)

Roger said:

An awful lot of tosh is written about poles and most of it just doesn't
add up. Poles don't magic the effort away, they just transfer in from
the strong lower limbs to the weak upper limbs

Though crucially they do it in such a way that the amount of effort
expended in the arms is /entirely/ at the discretion of the user. If
your arms are getting tired then put a bit less weight through the
straps and let the legs do a greater share.

Quoted message said:

and moreover transfer it
in a way that is mechanically very inefficient while probably upsetting
the rhythm that is very important in walking.

Inefficiency is only a real problem if your cardiuovascular system just
isn't up to the overall effort. With most walkers it is. There is no
reason to upset the rhythm at all: as with XC skiing diagonal stride,
the arm swing is entirely in sync with natural arm swing. It's down to
technique.

Quoted message said:

I think the comparison with skiing is misleading. Skiers use poles to
push and the height of the hands and the angles involved are different.

This is indeed true, but it remains the case that the natural swinging
rhythm that underpins both techniques is much the same. Use of poles
for traction in skiing takes considerably /more/ effort than weight
spreading while walking.

Quoted message said:

I can't manage anything that involves keeping my arms above shoulder
height for more than a few minutes at a time. I can support myself with
a walking stick providing I can get a straight arm vertically above it
but trying to transmit any meaningful force downwards through a half
bent arm is impossible.

Then shorten the pole so you don't have a half bent arm... A lot of
people I see waving poles at the ground to no real effect have them much
longer than I do, which may be connected.

Quoted message said:

But the proof of the pudding (and Judiths cake) is in the eating. Poles
obviously help some people, if only psychologically, but look around
when you are out walking and you will be lucky to see anyone who is more
than waving their poles around and tickling the ground at every strike.

This is very true. The majority of polers aren't even through the
straps as they should be and I think it's fair to say that a lot of the
claimed benefit from many folk comes from their imagination. But with
some practice for good technique you can increase the range of your
legs, and if your arms get tired then, hey ho, they get tired. Better
than your legs getting tired, you don't need them to keep walking.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/