Walking on snowy tops

Maybe you should not think of it as a 2 week backpack. It sounds like
you are going into the wilds for the full two weeks, with all food and
fuel, that would be tough, and I would want a mule or yak for it. (a
friend to share tent/stove at the least)
but, a weekend backpack is a different issue, not too bad even with
full winter kit. and most could cope with a few of these weekends
strung one after the other until 2 weeks are up.
For most thats what I think they would do in Scotland; weekend kit,
with maybe an extra base layer, food and fuel replenished on route.

I think if you get it in to your head that it is a 2 week backpack, you
will over pack, just think of it as a weekend, and forget to come home
on time.

Peewiglet said:

Does that mean they'll need to carry crampons, ice axe
and/or big boots suitable for crampons? I'm
wondering how that would work with a 2 week backpack.

It sounds like it might be a good idea to carry those things... I certainly
would.

If you choose carefully, and know that you're not going to be doing anything
wildly technical, then you can get the weight of the crampons and axe below
a kilo. If you're going to be using trekking poles anyway, then you could
perhaps find one of those poles that has a built-in axe (for self arrest
only). Petzl make one, and BD, too, I think.

You can put suitable crampons, with suitable bindings, on non-rigid boots.
Of course, this isn't going to work well when front-pointing solid water
ice, but for short passages on non-technical ground, it's certainly
possible. Something as bendy as the Simond Alligators, and light as Camp's
aluminium offerings would probably be an ideal solution. I don't know if
such a thing actually exists though...

I have worn crampons with tennis shoes on easy ground at 3400m. Of course,
it's not ideal (NB. this was a day-trip rather than a two week winter trek),
but you can find workable compromise solutions if you understand the
limitations of your gear and plan accordingly.

Martin.

On 6 Dec 2004 07:20:18 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I think if you get it in to your head that it is a 2 week backpack, you
will over pack, just think of it as a weekend, and forget to come home
on time.

Thanks. This is a walk across Scotland that takes about 2 weeks, and
quite a lot of people doing it will be camping along the way. I'm
wondering whether they're likely to be carrying crampons and ice axes,
and wearing crampon-compatible boots, if they're planning to walk over
high, snowy mountains. I'm wondering because I've not been on a winter
skills course - probably once I have I'll have a clearer idea. In the
meantime, though, it looks to me as though those items would be
necessary, and I'm thinking that would make a 2 weeks backpack rather
a heavy affair.

Many thanks for any insight into this: I'm just curious, and learning.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:30:55 +0100, "Martin Carpenter"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

It sounds like it might be a good idea to carry those things... I certainly
would. [...]

Thanks! That's v. helpful 🙂 Presumably that's what they're doing
then.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

The message <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

I'm still having a bit of a look around for winter skills courses, but
in the meantim I wondered if anyone could help wiht this. When I do my
walk across Scotland next May I'll be sticking to a low level route if
it's snowy on the tops, because I don't have recent experience with
ice axe, crampons etc. However, lots of people will presumably be
aiming for a high level crossing. Does that mean they'll need to carry
crampons, ice axe and/or big boots suitable for crampons? I'm
wondering how that would work with a 2 week backpack.

I doubt if they would be needed. I did the Scottish 4000s in early June
and while it snowed on the Ben the fresh snow was like cottonwool and
the old stuff soggy. A few days later on Macdui it was a matter of
paddling through slush floating on the old snow. Wellies would have been
more appropriate than ice axe and crampons but I had neither. I don't
know where the snow line is likely to be in May next year but I would
have thought it highly likely to be higher than it as in June over 30
years ago.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 123 summits
New - 94 (Marilyns 14, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 82)
Repeats - 29 (Marilyns 11, Sweats 21, Wainwrights 16, Outlying Fells 2)

In message <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I'm still having a bit of a look around for winter skills courses, but
in the meantim I wondered if anyone could help wiht this. When I do my
walk across Scotland next May I'll be sticking to a low level route if
it's snowy on the tops, because I don't have recent experience with
ice axe, crampons etc. However, lots of people will presumably be
aiming for a high level crossing. Does that mean they'll need to carry
crampons, ice axe and/or big boots suitable for crampons? I'm
wondering how that would work with a 2 week backpack.

I've only needed an ice axe on one of ten high level crossings. I've
never carried crampons, though they would have been useful in a few
places on the crossing where I needed the ice axe, and I've never worn
big boots. On the last two crossings I wore trail shoes.

I have done two week backpacks earlier in the year in the Highlands and
in places abroad where an ice axe and crampons were needed, along with
boots just stiff enough to take crampons. It just means more weight -
especially as a warmer sleeping bag and more clothing are needed as
well.

For a good winter course look at Play y Brenin in Snowdonia:

http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses/welsh-winter.php

http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses/scottish-winter.php

Or

http://www.hightrek.co.uk/climbing/weekends/winter.htm

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:00:44 GMT, Roger <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I doubt if they would be needed. I did the Scottish 4000s in early June
and while it snowed on the Ben the fresh snow was like cottonwool and
the old stuff soggy. A few days later on Macdui it was a matter of
paddling through slush floating on the old snow. Wellies would have been
more appropriate than ice axe and crampons but I had neither. I don't
know where the snow line is likely to be in May next year but I would
have thought it highly likely to be higher than it as in June over 30
years ago.

V. helpful, thanks 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:19:16 +0000, Chris Townsend
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I've only needed an ice axe on one of ten high level crossings. I've
never carried crampons, though they would have been useful in a few
places on the crossing where I needed the ice axe, and I've never worn
big boots. On the last two crossings I wore trail shoes.

That's v. helpful, thanks.

It sounds as though crampons are really for underlying ice, then,
rather than a foot or so of snow? I realise that probably sounds like
a pretty naive question, but I'm working on the principle that it's
more stupid not to ask... I've walked in thick snow in the Lakes with
ordinary 3 season leather boots and not had any problem, but earlier
this year I had to turn back on the way up towards the 'Hole in the
Wall' (approaching Helvellyn) because underlying ice made it
impossible for me to keep my footing. I'm going to book onto a course
to learn what it's all about, but in the meantime I'm wondering about
it.

Quoted message said:

I have done two week backpacks earlier in the year in the Highlands and
in places abroad where an ice axe and crampons were needed, along with
boots just stiff enough to take crampons. It just means more weight -
especially as a warmer sleeping bag and more clothing are needed as
well.

Ok, thanks - that helps 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:07:22 GMT, Andy Howell

andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk said:

For a good winter course look at Play y Brenin in Snowdonia:

http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses/welsh-winter.php

http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses/scottish-winter.php

Or

http://www.hightrek.co.uk/climbing/weekends/winter.htm

Many thanks! I've been looking at PyB, and also at Glenmore Lodge, but
I'd not seen the Hightrek one. I think an intensive 2 days over a
weekend sounds like what I need.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

In message <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:19:16 +0000, Chris Townsend
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I've only needed an ice axe on one of ten high level crossings. I've
never carried crampons, though they would have been useful in a few
places on the crossing where I needed the ice axe, and I've never worn
big boots. On the last two crossings I wore trail shoes.

That's v. helpful, thanks.

It's rare for anyone on the Challenge to carry or need crampons even on
high level routes. Of course next year might be different and it's worth
watching the weather and snow conditions from mid April.

Quoted message said:

It sounds as though crampons are really for underlying ice, then,
rather than a foot or so of snow? I realise that probably sounds like
a pretty naive question, but I'm working on the principle that it's
more stupid not to ask...

Crampons are for hard snow and ice. If you sink into the snow then
they're not needed. For a foot or snow I'd want skis or snowshoes.

Quoted message said:

I've walked in thick snow in the Lakes with
ordinary 3 season leather boots and not had any problem, but earlier
this year I had to turn back on the way up towards the 'Hole in the
Wall' (approaching Helvellyn) because underlying ice made it
impossible for me to keep my footing.

That's when crampons are needed.

Quoted message said:

I'm going to book onto a course
to learn what it's all about, but in the meantime I'm wondering about
it.

Good idea.

For hillwalking you don't need expensive rigid boots for use with
crampons, whatever instructors or others tell you. Flexible walking
crampons with cradle bindings, like Grivel G10s, will fit three season
walking boots.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have done two week backpacks earlier in the year in the Highlands and
in places abroad where an ice axe and crampons were needed, along with
boots just stiff enough to take crampons. It just means more weight -
especially as a warmer sleeping bag and more clothing are needed as
well.

Ok, thanks - that helps 🙂

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 6 Dec 2004 07:20:18 -0800, [email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I think if you get it in to your head that it is a 2 week backpack, you
will over pack, just think of it as a weekend, and forget to come home
on time.

Thanks. This is a walk across Scotland that takes about 2 weeks, and
quite a lot of people doing it will be camping along the way. I'm
wondering whether they're likely to be carrying crampons and ice axes,
and wearing crampon-compatible boots, if they're planning to walk over
high, snowy mountains. I'm wondering because I've not been on a winter
skills course - probably once I have I'll have a clearer idea. In the
meantime, though, it looks to me as though those items would be
necessary, and I'm thinking that would make a 2 weeks backpack rather
a heavy affair.

Many thanks for any insight into this: I'm just curious, and learning.

Very unlikely you'll need crampons in May as any remaining snow will likely
be soft and "kickable". In fact, I'd top up on the sunscreen - walking over
snowy tops, 3,000 ft up on some of these very long Scottish days can eat
your skin!

druidh

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:21:02 GMT, "druidh" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Very unlikely you'll need crampons in May as any remaining snow will likely
be soft and "kickable". In fact, I'd top up on the sunscreen - walking over
snowy tops, 3,000 ft up on some of these very long Scottish days can eat
your skin!

It sounds gorgeous! :-)) Bring on the sunshine!

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:09:47 +0000, Chris Townsend
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

It's rare for anyone on the Challenge to carry or need crampons even on
high level routes. Of course next year might be different and it's worth
watching the weather and snow conditions from mid April.

That's what I'll do then, thanks 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It sounds as though crampons are really for underlying ice, then,
rather than a foot or so of snow? I realise that probably sounds like
a pretty naive question, but I'm working on the principle that it's
more stupid not to ask...

Quoted message said:

Crampons are for hard snow and ice. If you sink into the snow then
they're not needed. For a foot or snow I'd want skis or snowshoes.

Thinking about it, a foot is an exageration. I was just thinking of
what felt like thick but soft snow on some of the Lakes tops last
March, but it was probably no more than 4-6" outside of little drifts.

It's reassuring to know that's what the crampons are for, though: I'd
begun to wonder whether I should have been wearing them in all snow.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've walked in thick snow in the Lakes with
ordinary 3 season leather boots and not had any problem, but earlier
this year I had to turn back on the way up towards the 'Hole in the
Wall' (approaching Helvellyn) because underlying ice made it
impossible for me to keep my footing.

That's when crampons are needed.

That makes more sense, then, thanks 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm going to book onto a course
to learn what it's all about, but in the meantime I'm wondering about
it.

Good idea.

For hillwalking you don't need expensive rigid boots for use with
crampons, whatever instructors or others tell you. Flexible walking
crampons with cradle bindings, like Grivel G10s, will fit three season
walking boots.

That's exactly what I needed to know - thank you v. much 🙂

This is really good news for me, because I thought I'd have to avoid
all the tops next May as I wasn't planning to carry an ice axe!
<blush...> Now I can hopefully just exercise common sense, and climb
some mountains along the way, subject to conditions.

Exciting stuff!! :-)

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Peewiglet said:

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:21:02 GMT, "druidh" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Very unlikely you'll need crampons in May as any remaining snow will
likely be soft and "kickable". In fact, I'd top up on the sunscreen
- walking over snowy tops, 3,000 ft up on some of these very long
Scottish days can eat your skin!

It sounds gorgeous! :-)) Bring on the sunshine!

Best wishes,

I go away the third or fourth week in May every year. Depending on the snow
during the winter you will get some in the deep gullys other than that it
should be fine. The temperatures are a different matter, go prepared for
temperatures from 40ºF to 75ºF and watch out for sunstroke and dehydration,
or freezing cold and soaking wet, it can be that kind of month 🙂

--

Don`t Worry, Be Happy

Sandy
--

E-Mail:- [email hidden]
Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk
Looking for a webhost? Try http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=2966019

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:32:18 GMT, "Sandy Birrell" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I go away the third or fourth week in May every year. Depending on the snow
during the winter you will get some in the deep gullys other than that it
should be fine. The temperatures are a different matter, go prepared for
temperatures from 40ºF to 75ºF and watch out for sunstroke and dehydration,
or freezing cold and soaking wet, it can be that kind of month 🙂

Often all in the same day :-} I got caught in a blizzard on top of Scafell
Pike in May, having started (and subsequently finished) the walk in a
t-shirt and light fleece. That was the last time I went out so badly
equipped - no hat, gloves, nor decent waterproofs even.

--
Team effort: A lot of people doing what I say.

Mail john rather than nospam...

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

For hillwalking you don't need expensive rigid boots for use with
crampons, whatever instructors or others tell you. Flexible walking
crampons with cradle bindings, like Grivel G10s, will fit three season
walking boots.

ooh good. That a 100+ quid saved.

--
Darren

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:42:25 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>
wrote:

/me comes charging into the fray...
late, as seems to be the nrom at the mo' !! ;-)

Quoted message said:

When I do my
walk across Scotland next May I'll be sticking to a low level route if
it's snowy on the tops,

It likely that you'll be able to find snow, possibly on the [highest]
tops, prolly in some gullies/north facing corries but, under normal
conditions for the time of year, it would be soft, probably to the
point of being mushy tbh. I think its also fair to say that, whatever
you do find, you could circumnavigate with ease (mushy snow is
something you /really/ want to avoid walking in, its a major
nuisance!).

The conditions that might affect the above would be weather conditions
out of the norm (sic.) at the specific time of your/any walk, i.e. not
the poss of snow [showers] on a top or two but prolonged wintry
conditions giving blanket coverage.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any illumination.

/me offers pw head torch... help any?

SteveO
--
NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
http://www.thenmc.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php

NMC website: http://www.thenmc.org.uk

Peewiglet said:

Chris Townsend said:

Quoted message said:

Peewiglet wrote:
I've walked in thick snow in the Lakes with
ordinary 3 season leather boots and not had any problem, but earlier
this year I had to turn back on the way up towards the 'Hole in the
Wall' (approaching Helvellyn) because underlying ice made it
impossible for me to keep my footing.

That's when crampons are needed.

That makes more sense, then, thanks 🙂

Crampons, as has already been noted, are needed when you can't get a
grip underfoot because of ice or hard snow. Soft snow isn't a problem,
unless it is on top of ice, but if this is the case you need to worry
more about an avalanch.

I would say they are much less essential than an ice-axe. I never
thought I would need them at all, until one winter in the Lakes. We had
planned Fairfield by a round of Deepdale as a winter walk (snowline at
about 300 metres) but the weather worsened as we approached St. Sunday
Crag and the top was in cloud with a howling gale and persistent snow.
We retreated, but missed the ridge and came down to the south, into Cold
Cove, where the snow layer was continuous, windswept and frozen so hard
that I couldn't kick steps in it. My two companions put on their
crampons and had an easy descent. I had to use the ice-axe brake once,
and after that descended by plunging the axe into the snow spike-first
at every step. My axe is an ancient wood-shafted Stubai Aschenbrenner,
walking-axe length (nearly reaches the ground when dangled from the
hand). I suppose I could have cut steps, but that would have been even
slower.

After that I bought some crampons, Camp Ice Trek, that are flexible
enough to fit on my Scarpa SL's. Boots don't have to be rigid to take
crampons, rigidity is only needed by ice-climbers who will be using the
front-points all day. The boots only need to be rigid enough so that
the crampons don't slip off. You need to adopt a different walking
style too, placing the foot flat to get all the points in contact.

As a lightweight emergency-use-only measure you might consider instep
crampons, four-pointed things that you strap under the instep. They
aren't well regarded, though - I think they have a tendency for snow to
ball up between the points, rendering them ineffective.

Quoted message said:

This is really good news for me, because I thought I'd have to avoid
all the tops next May as I wasn't planning to carry an ice axe!
<blush...> Now I can hopefully just exercise common sense, and climb
some mountains along the way, subject to conditions.

It is vitally important to carry an axe if there is any amount of snow.
The axe is the tool that will save your life if you should slip. On a
frozen surface, once you start sliding, you can stop with the axe and
just look embarassed: without it you will only stop when you hit
something. The axe, and practice in using the ice-axe brake, are
essential winter tools. Even if you go on a course, the first thing to
do on a snowy walk is find a safe slope and practice the brake again.
You have to do it until you are familiar and comfortable with it. No
amount of reading about it will do, you have to practice. You can get
away without crampons, but never without an axe.