vulcanising solution goes off ?

news.virgin.net said:

Hi,
Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives ? If so whats the
usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube. With tyres getting
so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure there are people who never
use their puncture kits and might find they fail when needed.

Thanks in advance,

Bruce.

for the super high pressures of today's tires , over 100 psi on road
tires, i would not use glue or any patching kits. you can get a whole
set of tubes on ebay for $20 a pack of 10
carlos
www.bikingthings.com
ride fast, get fit, live better, be happy

Quoted message said:

news.virgin.net said:

Hi,
Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives ? If so whats the
usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube. With tyres getting
so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure there are people who never
use their puncture kits and might find they fail when needed.

Quoted message said:

Thanks in advance,

Quoted message said:

Bruce.

for the super high pressures of today's tires , over 100 psi on road
tires, i would not use glue or any patching kits.

Huh? Why not? Why toss a perfectly good tube when a patch does the
job. It's not just a money issue, it's a "why be wasteful?" issue,
too.

Quoted message said:

you can get a whole
set of tubes on ebay for $20 a pack of 10
carloswww.bikingthings.com
ride fast, get fit, live better, be happy

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:32:28 -0800 (PST), [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

news.virgin.net said:

Hi,
Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives ? If so whats the
usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube. With tyres getting
so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure there are people who never
use their puncture kits and might find they fail when needed.

Thanks in advance,

Bruce.

for the super high pressures of today's tires , over 100 psi on road
tires, i would not use glue or any patching kits. you can get a whole
set of tubes on ebay for $20 a pack of 10
carlos
www.bikingthings.com
ride fast, get fit, live better, be happy

Dear Carlos,

Bicycle tire pressures are about what they've been for decades and
don't bother patches.

I've put over 200 Rema patches on three dozen Slime tubes, mostly for
goathead thorn punctures.

I'm down to two dozen tubes, twelve having been so badly damaged that
they couldn't be patched.

I run 110 psi, but used to run 125 psi.

I've had no patch problems and haven't heard of anyone on RBT with
patch problems.

Many bike shops do replace tubes because a new tube is faster and
cheaper than patching when the customer is waiting and you have to pay
an employee.

For someone who gets only occasional flats, a cheap new tube can make
sense for speed and convenience, but not for any improved
reliability--plenty of RBT posters patch without any problems.

In my case, 200 flats times $7 per mail-order Slime tube would have
been $1400, which would have been rather more expensive than $252 for
36 $7 Slime tubes plus about $30 for patches and glue.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

news.virgin.net said:

Hi,
Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives ? If so
whats the usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube.
With tyres getting so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure
there are people who never use their puncture kits and might find
they fail when needed.

It can dry up in the tube. One theory is that air gets in if the tube
wasn't crimped well.

It's not predicatable, so give your tube a squeeze every so often to test it
feels OK. If it's been opened, squeeze some solution out to see if it looks
OK.

Carry Park self-adhesive patches for backup.

Quoted message said:

for the super high pressures of today's tires , over 100 psi on road
tires, i would not use glue or any patching kits. you can get a whole
set of tubes on ebay for $20 a pack of 10

A properly patched inner tube will take 130 psi and more, no problem.

Anyway you should have a patch kit in addition to spare tube(s) for obvious
reasons.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives? If so
whats the usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube.
With tyres getting so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure
there are people who never use their puncture kits and might find
they fail when needed.

Quoted message said:

It can dry up in the tube. One theory is that air gets in if the
tube wasn't crimped well.

Its volatile solvent (that allows the glue to dry when used)
evaporates through the crimped end, the warmer the faster.

Quoted message said:

It's not predicatable, so give your tube a squeeze every so often to
test it feels OK. If it's been opened, squeeze some solution out to
see if it looks OK.

The accurate diagnostic is to open the cap, tube vertical, and see
whether solid or liquid emerges when squeezing the crimped end. If
liquid, carefully screw on cap with the liquid while still squeezing
the tube.

Quoted message said:

Carry Park self-adhesive patches for backup.

....and belt and spenders!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the super high pressures of today's tires, over 100 psi on road
tires, i would not use glue or any patching kits. you can get a
whole set of tubes on ebay for $20 a pack of 10

Quoted message said:

A properly patched inner tube will take 130 psi and more, no problem.

There is no force on the patch that might make it fail, inflation
pressure being retained by the tire casing. Pressure has no part in
patch survival. However, a freshly patched tube is massaged in use by
biased ply tires allowing the tube to peel away from a fresh patch.

Quoted message said:

Anyway you should have a patch kit in addition to spare tube(s) for
obvious reasons.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

> Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives? If so
> whats the usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube.
> With tyres getting so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure
> there are people who never use their puncture kits and might find
> they fail when needed.

Quoted message said:

It can dry up in the tube. One theory is that air gets in if the
tube wasn't crimped well.

Its volatile solvent (that allows the glue to dry when used)
evaporates through the crimped end, the warmer the faster.

Quoted message said:

It's not predicatable, so give your tube a squeeze every so often to
test it feels OK. If it's been opened, squeeze some solution out to
see if it looks OK.

The accurate diagnostic is to open the cap, tube vertical, and see
whether solid or liquid emerges when squeezing the crimped end. If
liquid, carefully screw on cap with the liquid while still squeezing
the tube.

Quoted message said:

Carry Park self-adhesive patches for backup.

...and belt and spenders!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the super high pressures of today's tires, over 100 psi on road
tires, i would not use glue or any patching kits. you can get a
whole set of tubes on ebay for $20 a pack of 10

Quoted message said:

A properly patched inner tube will take 130 psi and more, no problem.

There is no force on the patch that might make it fail, inflation
pressure being retained by the tire casing. Pressure has no part in
patch survival. However, a freshly patched tube is massaged in use by
biased ply tires allowing the tube to peel away from a fresh patch.

Quoted message said:

Anyway you should have a patch kit in addition to spare tube(s) for
obvious reasons.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Jobst Brandt

Dear Bruce, Pete, and Jobst,

This kind of tube takes a long time to dry out:

http://i23.tinypic.com/x1x6ih.jpg

Eight ounces, genuine Rema, $9.95 plus shipping:

http://biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=24393435553&d=single&c=Tire-Tube&sc=Repair-Kits-and-Supplies&tc=Cement&item_id=RE-203

Or you can stop by an auto store and pick up the same stuff for $5:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=VCT&MfrPartNumber=M8062&CategoryCode=3190

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:40:52 GMT, "news.virgin.net" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Hi,
Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives ? If so whats the
usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube. With tyres getting
so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure there are people who never
use their puncture kits and might find they fail when needed.

It doesn't usually decompose, it dries out. The small tubes are
particularly bad about this; the sealing crimp at the bottom of the
tube is sufficiently leaky that a patch kit which has lain unused in
the bottom of your spares bag (or on the store shelf) for a year will
often prove to have no useful adhesive in it when first opened.

I replace the tube of cement in my seat bag at the start and end of
summer whether I've used it up or not. The screw-top can I use at
home lasts for years.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

for the super high pressures of today's tires , over 100 psi on road
tires, i would not use glue or any patching kits. you can get a whole
set of tubes on ebay for $20 a pack of 10

May be cheap, but sure is bad for the environment.
--

Where's the Hat-rack said:

Quoted message said:

Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives? If so whats
the usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube. With
tyres getting so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure there
are people who never use their puncture kits and might find they
fail when needed.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't usually decompose, it dries out. The small tubes are
particularly bad about this; the sealing crimp at the bottom of the
tube is sufficiently leaky that a patch kit which has lain unused in
the bottom of your spares bag (or on the store shelf) for a year
will often prove to have no useful adhesive in it when first opened.
I replace the tube of cement in my seat bag at the start and end of
summer whether I've used it up or not. The screw-top can I use at
home lasts for years.

You might think that Rema and others would discover that highly
volatile solutions don't survive reliably in mechanically crimped
"toothpaste" tubes, their solvents being highly volatile by design.
This reminds me of the REMA representative at InterBike in 2006 who
was not aware that his patches take time to cure and that a fresh
patch can be pulled off with ease while a day-old one cannot.

To show how good his patches are, he installed on on a sample tube he
had at hand, allowing the rubber solution to dry before placing the
red-rimmed patch and rolling it down with a roller. Then he handed it
to me for inspection and I pulled it off effortlessly.

That is how little practical understanding of tire patching anyone at
REMA seems to have. They still believe patches are held best if the
surface of the tube is "roughened". Many of my patch kits of the past
had cheese graters for that purpose. That's how bad things are in the
business. Well installed, day-old cured patches cannot be readily
removed in one piece without heat.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Jobst Brandt

Where's the Hat-rack said:

Quoted message said:

Does vulcanising solution go off like other adhesives? If so whats
the usefull life of a) a sealed tube and b) an opened tube. With
tyres getting so good at preventing punctures today, I'm sure there
are people who never use their puncture kits and might find they
fail when needed.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't usually decompose, it dries out. The small tubes are
particularly bad about this; the sealing crimp at the bottom of the
tube is sufficiently leaky that a patch kit which has lain unused in
the bottom of your spares bag (or on the store shelf) for a year
will often prove to have no useful adhesive in it when first opened.
I replace the tube of cement in my seat bag at the start and end of
summer whether I've used it up or not. The screw-top can I use at
home lasts for years.

You might think that REMA and others would discover that highly
volatile solutions don't survive reliably in mechanically crimped
"toothpaste" tubes, their solvents being highly volatile by design.
This reminds me of the REMA representative at InterBike in 2006 who
was not aware that his patches take time to cure and that a fresh
patch can be pulled off with ease while a day-old one cannot.

To show how good his patches are, he installed one on a sample tube he
had at hand, allowing the rubber solution to dry before placing the
red-rimmed patch and rolling it down with a roller. Then he handed it
to me for inspection and I pulled it off effortlessly.

That is how little practical understanding of tire patching anyone at
REMA seems to have. They still believe patches are held best if the
surface of the tube is "roughened". Many of my patch kits of the past
had cheese graters for that purpose. That's how bad things are in the
business. Well installed, day-old cured patches cannot be readily
removed in one piece without heat.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Jobst Brandt

On 2007-11-20, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

That is how little practical understanding of tire patching anyone at
REMA seems to have. They still believe patches are held best if the
surface of the tube is "roughened". Many of my patch kits of the past
had cheese graters for that purpose.

I always thought the cheese grater was for grating the French chalk.

After gluing the patch on you make some chalk powder and then spread it
around on top of the patch. I think the purpose is to neutralize any
excess glue and so stop the tube sticking to the inside of the outer
tyre.

Ben C said:

I always thought the cheese grater was for grating the French chalk.

After gluing the patch on you make some chalk powder and then spread it
around on top of the patch. I think the purpose is to neutralize any
excess glue and so stop the tube sticking to the inside of the outer
tyre.

But these days it would be caulk from Thailand.

[email hidden] wrote:
Well installed, day-old cured patches cannot be readily

Quoted message said:

removed in one piece without heat.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

What I have started doing is keeping a spare tube. When I get a flat, I
toss that tube in there and patch the other under controlled conditions
at home. That way, the patch gets more than a full day to cure before
the tube is needed and the patched tube becomes the spare.

vey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Well installed, day-old cured patches cannot be readily

Quoted message said:

removed in one piece without heat.

Quoted message said:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

What I have started doing is keeping a spare tube. When I get a flat, I
toss that tube in there and patch the other under controlled conditions
at home. That way, the patch gets more than a full day to cure before
the tube is needed and the patched tube becomes the spare.

Yep, that's the sensible solution: carry a spare tube and patch the
puncture victim at home.

Ben C said:

On 2007-11-20, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

That is how little practical understanding of tire patching anyone at
REMA seems to have. They still believe patches are held best if the
surface of the tube is "roughened". Many of my patch kits of the past
had cheese graters for that purpose.

I always thought the cheese grater was for grating the French chalk.

After gluing the patch on you make some chalk powder and then spread it
around on top of the patch. I think the purpose is to neutralize any
excess glue and so stop the tube sticking to the inside of the outer
tyre.

I've never had a patch stick to the inside of a tire, even when I tried
to deliberately glue it on.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is how little practical understanding of tire patching anyone
at REMA seems to have. They still believe patches are held best
if the surface of the tube is "roughened". Many of my patch kits
of the past had cheese graters for that purpose.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I always thought the cheese grater was for grating the French chalk.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After gluing the patch on you make some chalk powder and then
spread it around on top of the patch. I think the purpose is to
neutralize any excess glue and so stop the tube sticking to the
inside of the outer tyre.

Quoted message said:

I've never had a patch stick to the inside of a tire, even when I
tried to deliberately glue it on.

I've never had a butyl tube not stick to the tire casing if it was in
there for more than 100 miles, and why should I care. A stuck tube
doesn't go flat a suddenly as a loose one, the tire casing then being
the local leak that is plugged by the piece of glass or thorn. The
tube must be pulled from the tire with a little force but that isn't a
drawback.

Jobst Brandt

Peter Cole said:

Ben C said:

On 2007-11-20, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

That is how little practical understanding of tire patching anyone at
REMA seems to have. They still believe patches are held best if the
surface of the tube is "roughened". Many of my patch kits of the past
had cheese graters for that purpose.

I always thought the cheese grater was for grating the French chalk.

After gluing the patch on you make some chalk powder and then spread it
around on top of the patch. I think the purpose is to neutralize any
excess glue and so stop the tube sticking to the inside of the outer
tyre.

I've never had a patch stick to the inside of a tire, even when I tried
to deliberately glue it on.

I've had them stick a little bit, but not so you couldn't just pull them
apart fairly easily and without damaging anything.

Not all puncture repair kits come with the chalk anyway. I don't think
it's necessary.

In article
<[email hidden]
egroups.com>,
Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

vey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Well installed, day-old cured patches cannot be readily

Quoted message said:

removed in one piece without heat.

Quoted message said:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

What I have started doing is keeping a spare tube. When I get a flat, I
toss that tube in there and patch the other under controlled conditions
at home. That way, the patch gets more than a full day to cure before
the tube is needed and the patched tube becomes the spare.

Yep, that's the sensible solution: carry a spare tube and patch the
puncture victim at home.

On rides out away from home I like to have three spare tubes.
* One to replace the punctured tube.
* One to replace the replacement tube that does not hold air.
* One for backup.

And a patch kit 🙂

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]
egroups.com>,
Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

vey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well installed, day-old cured patches cannot be readily

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> removed in one piece without heat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I have started doing is keeping a spare tube. When I get a flat, I
toss that tube in there and patch the other under controlled conditions
at home. That way, the patch gets more than a full day to cure before
the tube is needed and the patched tube becomes the spare.

Quoted message said:

Yep, that's the sensible solution: carry a spare tube and patch the
puncture victim at home.

On rides out away from home I like to have three spare tubes.
* One to replace the punctured tube.
* One to replace the replacement tube that does not hold air.
* One for backup.

And a patch kit 🙂

The belt, belt, belt and suspenders approach! ;-)

I'm lucky in that I very rarely (prior to this August, my last flat
was in May or June '05) get flats, so a single tube seems to serve me
quite well. I have taken to carrying some glueless patches (duck!) to
help those poor souls who flat and have neither tube nor patch. I
carry an extra CO2 cartridge for the same reason.