Volume at L4 questions

-What is your total volume?-What are your target events?-When are your target events?-Are you currently focusing on raising FTP? if so, how long have you been doing so? what do you mean by 'experienced'? what do you mean by 'good'? etc etc

I don't see how there could be one answer to your question re: maximum time. (not to mention that I'd be surprised if there are *significant* differences in the adaptations caused by time spent at 88-94% vs. 95-105% FTP.) FWIW, I spent around 3 hrs between 88-105% last week, out of 17hrs total. Probably be in the range of 4 out of 15 this week.

btw, I do like the idea of a "sweatspot." Although for me that probably is everything above 50% FTP. 😄

peterpen said:

-What is your total volume?-What are your target events?-When are your target events?-Are you currently focusing on raising FTP? if so, how long have you been doing so? what do you mean by 'experienced'? what do you mean by 'good'? etc etc

I don't see how there could be one answer to your question re: maximum time. (not to mention that I'd be surprised if there are *significant* differences in the adaptations caused by time spent at 88-94% vs. 95-105% FTP.) FWIW, I spent around 3 hrs between 88-105% last week, out of 17hrs total. Probably be in the range of 4 out of 15 this week.

btw, I do like the idea of a "sweatspot." Although for me that probably is everything above 50% FTP. 😄

I fixed my post🙂

Quadsweep said:

I am wondering how much time per week you guys do at sub L4 or sweatspot (88-94% FTP), and true L4(95-105% FTP)when focusing on increasing FTP?
I think a lot of you guys are doing just that right now.

What do you think is a good maximum amount of time, at each L4 level, that an experienced good rider should shoot for if riding 10-15 hours of riding per week?
Personally, I jumped quickly to Cat 3 and I am banging on Cat 2 door even though I am older. I am currently focusing on increasing FTP as my strength is AWC and sprinting and I need much more FTP. First races in 5 weeks.

It would be good to hear what some of you Cat 3, 2 and 1 riders do.

I widen the sweetspot range a little wider than TARWAPMS. I log all my 'effective' training time in L3/4/5/6.

Now I hardly ever end up riding much below 0.85IF or higher than 0.95IF when targetting sweet spot so I guess my data might be of interest. Most of these rides I call UL3-LL4 in my log.

Average total L3/4 time: ~10 hrs/wk out of an average of 14 hrs/wk. Total last year was 500 hrs in L3/4 or ~70% of total training time.

The past 2-3 months being 95% indoors and with a lot of SST under the hood from last season(and CTL), I've been doing a more traditional L4 focus and indeed nearly all L4 work has been in the 0.95-1.03 range.

Average L4 time: ~3.5 hrs/wk out of 8-12 hrs indoor training. It ranges from a low of 2hrs to a high of 6hrs. That excludes one rest week before Xmas and one sick week in January.

If I had six weeks left before racing, I'd certainly be pounding away on core mid-upper L4 + whatever higher intensity work might be appropriate for you.

Quadsweep said:

I am wondering how much time per week you guys do at sub L4 or sweatspot (88-94% FTP), and true L4(95-105% FTP)when focusing on increasing FTP?
I think a lot of you guys are doing just that right now.

What do you think is a good maximum amount of time, at each L4 level, that an experienced good rider should shoot for if riding 10-15 hours of riding per week?
Personally, I jumped quickly to Cat 3 and I am banging on Cat 2 door even though I am older. I am currently focusing on increasing FTP as my strength is AWC and sprinting and I need much more FTP. First races in 5 weeks.

It would be good to hear what some of you Cat 3, 2 and 1 riders do.

My riders are still on their trainer TSS diet at the moment, averaging little over 40tss/d (5hr / week). Improvement in FTP (our main focus) are still being recorded so I'm keeping them on this diet.

This diet is made of 2hr20min of L4, booked in a 3day block, ending with a single 20min hard effort (Max Mean Power for this duration) on the last day of the block. The second weekly block is made of 2 short CP testing (2 and 5) in one 30min long workout. Together the CP2,5 and 20 give us our CP power/duration curve. A longish L2 ride completes the second block.

But when we hit the roads (outdoor), this volume will double (roughly). A majority of which will be done at or near L4.

The context is that the riders rely mainly on FTP for their events (uphill bike races, 10miles and 40k TT)

Quadsweep said:

I fixed my post🙂

I was really just giving you hard time by way of pointing out that there are almost an infinite number of different variables that can influence time spent at certain powers.

I'm a 36 y.o. cat 3, starting my third year of racing/training. I currently spend around 30% of my training time *targeting* 88-105% FTP, i.e. doing intervals in that range, which works out to ~3-5 hrs/wk. I also get time in that range via the weekly group ride.

Next month will probably have more intervals in the 95-105% FTP range, and I start racing this weekend - my NP in crits tends to fall in that range - so I'll get some regular time there that way. But my targets are in the late spring, so I'm in no hurry to be piling on lots of intensity - most of my rides are in the 3-4 hr range and rarely go over .75 IF.

I'm a regular slacker compared to rmur17. :p

As mentioned, the answer depends on how one calculates "time in zone" for those levels. It's also something I don't really track. But if I had to give you some numbers, I'd guesstimate 2-4 hours of SST for 9-13hrs of training (my weekly volume as of late). So about 20-30% of ride time. I also have been doing some VO2 work and one neuromuscular workout per week.

Personally, I prefer TSS and IF as a simple way to quantify training for a workout or time period. For example, I'm more confident in telling you that I've been doing about 700-750TSS/week at an IF of .77-.86 during my "on" weeks (non-recovery weeks).

But either way, don't use me as an example...I'm still figuring all this stuff out! This is the first winter I'm focusing on higher intensity work, but from some of the posts I've read, it may not be high enough?! :eek:

Quadsweep said:

I am wondering how much time per week you guys do at sub L4 or sweatspot (88-94% FTP), and true L4(95-105% FTP)when focusing on increasing FTP?
I think a lot of you guys are doing just that right now.

What do you think is a good maximum amount of time, at each L4 level, that an experienced good rider should shoot for if riding 10-15 hours of riding per week?
Personally, I jumped quickly to Cat 3 and I am banging on Cat 2 door even though I am older. I am currently focusing on increasing FTP as my strength is AWC and sprinting and I need much more FTP. First races in 5 weeks.

It would be good to hear what some of you Cat 3, 2 and 1 riders do.

About 3-4 hours in the lower zone, .5-1 in the upper of the two you listed. Rest is lower L3 or L2. FTP is up ~10 watts from peak in season values.

My response to this question is, "It depends on how far up the curve I am relative to my (perceived) maximum attainable FTP." Let's say that I am relatively detrained and that my FTP is <90% of my max attainable FTP (in my opinion). In this scenario, I will see good FTP improvement with L4s at anything around 90%FTP and the major consequence of doing my L4s at >=100%FTP is that my efforts are shorter in duration. OTOH, let's say that I am relatively trained and that my FTP is >95% of my max attainable FTP (again, in my opinion). I would increase the intensity of my L4 efforts to the 100-105% range, to extrapolate this last 5% of my FTP potential, at the expense of shorter L4 durations. As to L4 time relative to other intensities, I would inrease L5-L7 as I get within ~6-8 weeks of a target event. But, even in the last few weeks before a target event, L4 would still make up ~50% of my high-intensity training time.

RapDaddyo said:

My response to this question is, "It depends on how far up the curve I am relative to my (perceived) maximum attainable FTP." Let's say that I am relatively detrained and that my FTP is <90% of my max attainable FTP (in my opinion). In this scenario, I will see good FTP improvement with L4s at anything around 90%FTP and the major consequence of doing my L4s at >=100%FTP is that my efforts are shorter in duration. OTOH, let's say that I am relatively trained and that my FTP is >95% of my max attainable FTP (again, in my opinion). I would increase the intensity of my L4 efforts to the 100-105% range, to extrapolate this last 5% of my FTP potential, at the expense of shorter L4 durations. As to L4 time relative to other intensities, I would inrease L5-L7 as I get within ~6-8 weeks of a target event. But, even in the last few weeks before a target event, L4 would still make up ~50% of my high-intensity training time.

Rap....you and rmur17 ROCK. Good advice for ya Quad. All the other guys have given good input too by the way.

I might add my .02......
Quad, a lot depends on your unique abilty to recover and especailly how you structure recovery in your program week to week. Also, recovery weeks are critical and they have to be pretty easy when you are training hard or you'll go backwards. Lots of other things have to be factored in too ....like when your first races are, how long you have been focusing on threshold work of late, your base of SST etc etc etc.

Right now, in an attempt to re-gain Cat 1 status (for fun or my wife would divorce me), I am doing 60 minutes at 98-102% FTP per week and 2 hours at 95%. I block train L4, as do many of my clients, and get good results. I also do a 4 hour very tough group ride and get another hour at mid to high L4 with this. That's 4 hours a week at 95% and up. I also do a reoovery rides for an hour and an off day.
I also do sprints year round.
Other than warm ups/cool downs and in between intervals the only L2, L3, and SST I get is in the group ride right now...although not much L2 as the guys are getting ready for some early races. I also get in some L5, L6 and L7 in the group ride.
Not a lot of total volume becuase I don't have the time, but it's damn tough work.

Soon it will be time to work VO2 max and some L6 as my first races are not that far away.
Keep in mind that I am an old war horse with many many years of racing behind me and lots of time at Cat1 and I have never been "out of shape" or even close. I have good recovery capacity, especially for my age. I am also VERY particular with recovery.

Quadsweep said:

I am wondering how much time per week you guys do at sub L4 or sweatspot (88-94% FTP), and true L4(95-105% FTP)when focusing on increasing FTP?
I think a lot of you guys are doing just that right now.

Hard to say really as my mix of volume and intensity I expect to change over time somewhat as I develop further myself. Season by season development. Outta time right now to go back to that phase and investigate it. See my previous post on parsing time. That should give you some idea...

I actually don't do the high volume of structured L4 intervals that many others quote. But I race frequently (shorter races <1hr) so they end up as sweetspot / L4 anyway. Maybe one set of 2x20s per week with one high end tempo 87-88% FTP for around 80-100 minutes as part of my long ride each week. Even then I've built up the volume of tempo I do (several months ago I would just do 30 min tempo, then 45, then 60 and at mid tempo intensity before that would rise towards sweetspot levels) and that again is less than what others quote. But the fitter I become, the more of that sweetspot I am capable of.

I'd apply the same principle to riders that are relatively new to this type of training (as opposed to JRA) - it takes time to build the ability to train with this volume of intensity. Bit like trying to jump your season CTL peak too much one year to the next (assuming it was a reasonable level last year reflective of what is solid training for the athlete).

The term "Sweatspot" is quite apt though, it's been really muggy here last few weeks and fluid loss through sweating has been a problem, simply can't drink enough to keep up.:eek:

Quadsweep said:

I am wondering how much time per week you guys do at sub L4 or sweatspot (88-94% FTP), and true L4(95-105% FTP)when focusing on increasing FTP?
I think a lot of you guys are doing just that right now.

What do you think is a good maximum amount of time, at each L4 level, that an experienced good rider should shoot for if riding 10-15 hours of riding per week?
Personally, I jumped quickly to Cat 3 and I am banging on Cat 2 door even though I am older. I am currently focusing on increasing FTP as my strength is AWC and sprinting and I need much more FTP. First races in 5 weeks.

It would be good to hear what some of you Cat 3, 2 and 1 riders do.

Well, I certainly don't claim to know what I'm doing, but since I am only training 7-8 hrs per week, including warm-up and cool-down, I have generally been spending about 5-6 hrs on sweet spot training. Maybe 3-4 hrs at high L3 and 2-3 hrs at low L4. Not much time spent at or above threshold, except for the odd chunk here and there, or the occasional 'burst' of L6-7.

I am just now starting to work at higher intensities. After a 'shaky' Tuesday L5 session, I returned to SST for Thurday, and it was great - 3 x 30' on 5' off, averaging 92%, 94%, and 96% for the work intervals. I would have tried for a 4th, but I was out of 'sugary fluids'.🙄

I decided to make the switch to intervals for my low L4's because I was starting to get mentally fatigued. I think that this new approach could lead to a pb for my 3 hr MP. Maybe as part of a 5 x 30' workout.😉

Anyway, since starting SST in October, I have increased FTP from <4.2 w/kg to at least 4.6 w/kg, and my 3 hr MP stands at 4 w/kg. What was that saying about 'bang for your buck'?🙂

postal_bag said:

Well, I certainly don't claim to know what I'm doing, but since I am only training 7-8 hrs per week, including warm-up and cool-down, I have generally been spending about 5-6 hrs on sweet spot training. Maybe 3-4 hrs at high L3 and 2-3 hrs at low L4. Not much time spent at or above threshold, except for the odd chunk here and there, or the occasional 'burst' of L6-7.

I am just now starting to work at higher intensities. After a 'shaky' Tuesday L5 session, I returned to SST for Thurday, and it was great - 3 x 30' on 5' off, averaging 92%, 94%, and 96% for the work intervals. I would have tried for a 4th, but I was out of 'sugary fluids'.🙄

I decided to make the switch to intervals for my low L4's because I was starting to get mentally fatigued. I think that this new approach could lead to a pb for my 3 hr MP. Maybe as part of a 5 x 30' workout.😉

Anyway, since starting SST in October, I have increased FTP from <4.2 w/kg to at least 4.6 w/kg, and my 3 hr MP stands at 4 w/kg. What was that saying about 'bang for your buck'?🙂

Progress is it's own reward ... or something like that 🙂