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Vodka sauce question.

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
8 February 2004
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24 February 2004
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Richard Periut
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  1. Rodney Myrvaagnes said:
    sf said:
    Richard Periut said:

    Any opinions on the matter?


    I don't think "vodka" sauce is anything special.

    I have the same objections to it that I have against most restaurant tomato sauces served over
    pasta... it's too bland to order again.

    I am baffled. Is vodka sauce the same at all restaurants?

    <thanks for asking> A: I have absolutely NO idea!

    I live in a big city which is famed for Italian food (originally, Sicilian - now we have more
    regions). I tried it at a local restaurant which is famed for Vodka Sauce but I didn't think the
    dish lived up to its mystique. I was SO dissapointed, it didn't rate a retry (anywhere) for me.

    Please don't let my opinion color your thinking, because I don't like most restaurant produced
    tomato based sauces (yes, I'm picky). The mystique of vodka sauce completely escapes me, but maybe
    you will find a nuance that I've missed.

    I have my opinion, but you are free to have a different one.

    :-)

    Practice safe eating - always use condiments

  2. (snip)

    Quoted message said:

    I am baffled. Is vodka sauce the same at all restaurants?

    Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

    "Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass


    you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia

    That's a good question! One of the best cheaper Italian Restaurants here on Maui (Marco's) has a
    FABULOUS vodka sauce. Theirs is a pink colored, tomato-cream sauce with pancetta bits served over a
    ziti-like pasta. It's wonderful! They have a lunch appetizer for about $12.00 that I can get two
    meals out of. Their dinner portion sells for about $28.00 and I can get 4 meals out of that. It's so
    rich and good.

    kili

  3. Rodney Myrvaagnes said:
    (Victor Sack) said:
    Richard Periut said:

    Any opinions on the matter?

    Posted a few years ago:

    Here's what Arthur Schwartz writes at <http://www.thefoodmaven.com/radiorecipes/penne.html>.

    <quote> This is not a traditional Italian recipe. I know because I was there -- more or less -- at
    its invention. It was the early 1970s and vodka was a relatively new spirit to Italians. To
    promote the consumption of vodka in Italy, vodka distillers provided restaurants with gizmos that
    kept both the vodka and vodka glasses chilled and they held recipe contests among Italian chefs.
    This dish was the rage in fashion-conscious Italian circles in the mid '70s. I never see it
    anymore in Italy. But Americans are entranced by the idea, even though it is nothing more than a
    tomato cream sauce with hot pepper and a good dose of vodka, which, to be frank, is hardly
    detectable in the finished dish. </quote>


    I first saw it on a menu in Quebec City in 1965. I didn't order it because it didn't make sense to
    me. The subsequent discussions on this group lead me to think of trying it sometime.

    I don't believe, without further evidence, that a large fraction of the alcohol remains after
    cooking. If that were true, stills wouldn't work in a reasonable period of time.

    Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

    "Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today."
    --Former mayor Ciancia


    I'm currently questioning that also; doesn't make sense. Perhaps the food can hinder the process a
    bit, but not with 15 minutes of boiling/heat.

    Rich

    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.

  4. "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]... <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I don't believe, without further evidence, that a large fraction of the alcohol remains after
    cooking. If that were true, stills wouldn't work in a reasonable period of time.


    .

    Quoted message said:

    Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

    A flat-earther eh Rodney? <grin> The alcohol certainly remains in my favorite recipe as it goes in
    at the end of cooking. So here is a no-question-about-it alcoholic pasta!

    Charlie

    PENNE A LA VODKA

    Source: San Diego Union, date unknown

    3/4 lb. penne 1 tbs. olive oil 2 tbs. butter 1 onion, finely chopped
    4/2 lb. tomatoes, peeled and chopped 4 tbs. heavy cream coarse salt to taste freshly ground pepper
    to taste 4 tbs. vodka, steeped overnight or longer with 1 tbs. hot red pepper flakes freshly
    grated Parmesan to taste

    Cook penne to al dente and drain. Meanwhile make the sauce. Heat olive oil and butter in a skillet.
    Soften the onions without browning and add the tomatoes. Cook for about 5 minutes. Add the cream and
    cook for 1 minute. Season with salt and pepper. Add the vodka and simmer for 2 minutes. Toss the
    penne with the sauce in a heated bowl and serve with the cheese.

  5. "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Adam Fineman said:
    Richard Periut said:

    Recently I tasted a vodka sauce recipe from a local Italian Ma & Pa place. The place is very
    good; byob, quick service, and the best


    Italian

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    food in the area.

    I ordered a Penne a la Vodka as a side dish, and found it quite good. However, my
    questions are:

    1 Vodka is pretty much tasteless, so what does it give the dish? <snip>

    As other people have said, tomatoes contain a few compounds that are alcohol-soluble. Adding
    alcohol to a tomato-based sauce will release those flavor compounds into the sauce. Vodka is
    commonly used because, while not completely tasteless, has a fairly neutral flavor. Other sauces
    might use white wine. I would avoid red wines as they often are too complex to just add to a
    recipe that is already fairly well balanced, especially if the sauce will be reduced further.

    You should try it yourself. When I first heard that tomatoes have alcohol-soluble flavors, I made
    a fairly simple tomato sauce and split it in half when it was done. I added a shot of vodka to
    one and let them both continue to simmer for another 5 minutes. I could definitely taste the
    difference, and it was not vodka I was tasting. The sauce just seemed to have a wider range of
    flavors.


    Thanks, Adam. You actually contributed something helpful to the discussion.

    That sounds like a major put-down Rodney. And after I shared my favorite recipe with you. Tut.

    Charlie

    Quoted message said:

    Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

  6. Kenneth said:
    Dimitri said:

    Nope - There are many flavors of vodka athough the basic flavor for me is lemon zest (very
    subtle).

    Howdy,

    No expert I, but it was my understanding that in Russia, if there were detectable flavors, the
    distillate of fermented potatoes could not be sold as "vodka."


    Vodka is not made from potatoes. That's an old wives' tale.

  7. sf <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Rodney Myrvaagnes said:

    On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 03:40:49 GMT, sf <[email hidden]>


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 02:37:07 GMT, Richard Periut <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Any opinions on the matter?
    >
    I don't think "vodka" sauce is anything special.

    I have the same objections to it that I have against most restaurant tomato sauces served over
    pasta... it's too


    bland

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to order again.

    I am baffled. Is vodka sauce the same at all restaurants?

    <thanks for asking> A: I have absolutely NO idea!

    I live in a big city which is famed for Italian food (originally, Sicilian - now we have more
    regions). I tried it at a local restaurant which is famed for Vodka Sauce but I didn't think the
    dish lived up to its mystique. I was SO dissapointed, it didn't rate a retry (anywhere) for me.

    Please don't let my opinion color your thinking, because I don't like most restaurant produced
    tomato based sauces (yes, I'm picky). The mystique of vodka sauce completely escapes me, but maybe
    you will find a nuance that I've missed.

    I have my opinion, but you are free to have a different one.

    :-)

    About the only way I can enjoy vodka is in a spicy bloody mary or in orange or grapefruit juice.
    Otherwise, it simply tastes like rubbing alcohol to me and I've never understood it's strong
    attraction to so many. I doubt that I'd have even bothered trying a vodka sauce. It certainly
    doesn't offer the much flavor (apart from the alcohol taste) like other liquors.

    JMO Wayne

  8. Charles Gifford said:


    "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]... <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I don't believe, without further evidence, that a large fraction of the alcohol remains after
    cooking. If that were true, stills wouldn't work in a reasonable period of time.


    .

    Quoted message said:

    Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

    A flat-earther eh Rodney? <grin> The alcohol certainly remains in my favorite recipe as it goes in
    at the end of cooking. So here is a no-question-about-it alcoholic pasta!

    Charlie

    PENNE A LA VODKA

    Source: San Diego Union, date unknown

    3/4 lb. penne 1 tbs. olive oil 2 tbs. butter 1 onion, finely chopped
    1/2 lb. tomatoes, peeled and chopped 4 tbs. heavy cream coarse salt to taste freshly ground pepper
    to taste 4 tbs. vodka, steeped overnight or longer with 1 tbs. hot red pepper flakes freshly
    grated Parmesan to taste

    Cook penne to al dente and drain. Meanwhile make the sauce. Heat olive oil and butter in a skillet.
    Soften the onions without browning and add the tomatoes. Cook for about 5 minutes. Add the cream
    and cook for 1 minute. Season with salt and pepper. Add the vodka and simmer for 2 minutes. Toss
    the penne with the sauce in a heated bowl and serve with the cheese.


    Sounds pleasant enough, but doesn't address what I said. Your 4 tbsp of vodka contains about 4 tsp
    of alcohol, depending on proof, when you put it in. You simmer for 2 minutes near the boiling point
    of water, or about 20 deg C above the boiling point of the vodka (water-alcohol mix ca 40% by wt.)

    One could devise an experiment to measure the alcohol loss in 2 minutes, but unless there is some
    reputable published measurement, I don't consider that amount worth bothering about.

    The rest of the sauce amounts to about a pint, so before simmering you have about 5% by vol--
    like beer.

    In no way comparable to a creme-de-menthe parfait.

    Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    "That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore
    forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick I? How can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my
    own husband?"

  9. Charles Gifford said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    taste the difference, and it was not vodka I was tasting. The sauce just seemed to have a wider
    range of flavors.


    Thanks, Adam. You actually contributed something helpful to the discussion.

    That sounds like a major put-down Rodney. And after I shared my favorite recipe with you. Tut.


    Sorry, Charlie,

    I thanked you for the recipe, but it didn't answer my question, for the reason you pointed
    out yourself.

    Anyhow, Pastorio pointed to web sites that actually contained an answer. I know, USDA is not a
    refereed journal either, except by lobbyists and congressmen.

    If anyone actually knows the reference to Akbar's journal article, I might be able to look it up.

    Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    "That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore
    forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick I? How can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my
    own husband?"

  10. On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:08:57 GMT, [email hidden] (Tim Vanhoof)

    Quoted message said:
    Kenneth said:
    Dimitri said:

    Nope - There are many flavors of vodka athough the basic flavor for me is lemon zest (very
    subtle).

    Howdy,

    No expert I, but it was my understanding that in Russia, if there were detectable flavors, the
    distillate of fermented potatoes could not be sold as "vodka."


    Vodka is not made from potatoes. That's an old wives' tale.

    Howdy,

    Those old wives were certainly fermenting lots of potatoes <g>.

    I am not sure that traditionally vodka was made only from potatoes, but it most certainly is often
    made that way.

    You might want to check:

    google.comsearch

    for a ton of interesting hits.

    All the best,

    --
    Kenneth

    If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

  11. Wayne Boatwright said:

    sf <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:54:05 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I am baffled. Is vodka sauce the same at all restaurants?

    <thanks for asking> A: I have absolutely NO idea!

    Quoted message said:


    About the only way I can enjoy vodka is in a spicy bloody mary or in orange or grapefruit juice.
    Otherwise, it simply tastes like rubbing alcohol to me and I've never understood it's strong
    attraction to so many. I doubt that I'd have even bothered trying a vodka sauce. It certainly
    doesn't offer the much flavor (apart from the alcohol taste) like other liquors .

    OH, Wayne... have you bought into the current "alternative" martinis? They are like the modern
    daiquiris and margaritas.

    Try Absolute Orange with a "splash" of Grand Marnier (or Triple Sec, to be frugal). It's Absolutely
    to die for!!!!!

    Alternatively, try Absolute Kurrant with a splash of Chambord... which you can dilute with cranberry
    juice, if you wish. It's not as good as the orange (IMO), but far better than an appletini.

    Practice safe eating - always use condiments

  12. Rodney Myrvaagnes said:

    Sounds pleasant enough, but doesn't address what I said. Your 4 tbsp of vodka contains about 4 tsp
    of alcohol, depending on proof, when you put it in. You simmer for 2 minutes near the boiling point
    of water, or about 20 deg C above the boiling point of the vodka (water-alcohol mix ca 40% by wt.)

    Ah hah! I used to be of the "all the alcohol boils off/cooks out" persuasion, 'til the figures were
    presented (and once again in a recent thread here). Consider: Water boils at 212F (at sea level).
    Does this mean when you bring a pot of water to the boil, all of it instantantly evaporates? Of
    course not. That'd make steaming green beans *extremely* treacherous. Warm water, then ![censored]! bare
    pot over high flame! Alcohol indeeds boils/evaporates at a lower temperature than water, but that
    *doesn't* mean it all disappears at around 78C.

    I very much doubt that 4Tblsp of 60-proof (30%) alcohol in a pot of pasta sauce simmered for 20
    minutes would intoxicate even a small child, but there is *some* alcohol remaining. Now whether it
    was ever enough to be a superior solvent for releasing certain flavors is, IMHO, rather
    questionable.

  13. Rodney Myrvaagnes <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Charles Gifford said:


    "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]... <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I don't believe, without further evidence, that a large fraction of the alcohol remains after
    cooking. If that were true, stills wouldn't work in a reasonable period of time.


    .

    Shankar posted a reference to a refereed, published article over ten years ago. Here's a pointer to
    his reference:

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=16&selm=43778%40rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

    -bwg

  14. Wayne Boatwright said:


    About the only way I can enjoy vodka is in a spicy bloody mary or in orange or grapefruit juice.

    Quoted message said:

    Wayne

    give it a whack with pineapple juice sometime.

    your pal, blake

  15. Rodney Myrvaagnes said:

    If anyone actually knows the reference to Akbar's journal article, I might be able to look it up.

    I don't know who or what "Akbar" is, but see <groups.google.comgroups
    duesseldorf.de>

    and

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=Xns90DD9A7B6FF5sbhattacatattnet%40204.127.36.1>.

    Victor

  16. sf <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Wayne Boatwright said:

    sf <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:54:05 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >
    > I am baffled. Is vodka sauce the same at all


    restaurants?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >

    <thanks for asking> A: I have absolutely NO idea!

    Quoted message said:


    About the only way I can enjoy vodka is in a spicy bloody


    mary

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    or in orange or grapefruit juice. Otherwise, it simply tastes


    like

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    rubbing alcohol to me and I've never understood it's


    strong

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    attraction to so many. I doubt that I'd have even


    bothered trying a

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    vodka sauce. It certainly doesn't offer the much flavor


    (apart from

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the alcohol taste) like other liquors .

    OH, Wayne... have you bought into the current "alternative" martinis? They are like the modern
    daiquiris and margaritas.

    Try Absolute Orange with a "splash" of Grand Marnier (or Triple Sec, to be frugal). It's
    Absolutely to die for!!!!!

    Alternatively, try Absolute Kurrant with a splash of Chambord... which you can dilute with
    cranberry juice, if you wish. It's not as good as the orange (IMO), but far better than an
    appletini.

    Now those sound good! I would definitely be willing to try them, especially the Kurrant. But my
    "real" martinis must be with either Bombay, Tanqueray, or Beefeater gin, never vodka.

    As to "vodka", I was referring to just plain vodka, even the best of brands, which all taste like
    rubbing alcohol to me. Maybe it's genetic. I love beets! <G>

    Wayne

  17. On 10 Feb 2004 12:12:35 -0800, [email hidden] (Barry Grau)

    Quoted message said:

    Rodney Myrvaagnes <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Charles Gifford said:


    "Rodney Myrvaagnes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]... <snip>
    > I don't believe, without further evidence, that a large fraction of the alcohol remains after
    > cooking. If that were true, stills wouldn't work in a reasonable period of time.


    .

    Shankar posted a reference to a refereed, published article over ten years ago. Here's a pointer to
    his reference:

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=16&selm=43778%40rnd.GBA.NYU.EDU>


    I looked at that link. I found no reference after reading through it twice. Shankar's argument in
    that site is entirely verbal and qualitative, and he never names the journal that the putative
    refereed article could be found in. Nor does he summarize any quantitative results.

    His verbal arguments are reasonable, in that they suggest an asymptotic approach to zero alcohol. I
    doubt ayone disputes that. The operative question might be something like "When does a sauce have
    the alcohol content of orange juice?"

    *******************************

    Pastorio provided links that actually answer questions:

    This one:

    cinnamonhearts.comCookWithAlc.htm

    gives a USDA table of retained percentage vs time for various cooking methods.

    Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    "That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore
    forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick I? How can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my
    own husband?"

  18. blake murphy <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Wayne Boatwright said:


    About the only way I can enjoy vodka is in a spicy bloody


    mary

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    or in orange or grapefruit juice.

    Quoted message said:

    Wayne

    give it a whack with pineapple juice sometime.

    your pal, blake

    Actually, I have, and it's good. Thanks, Blake. I just need something to mix it with that overpowers
    the "rubbing alcohol" flavor. <G>

    Wayne

  19. On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:55:57 +0100, [email hidden] (Victor

    Sack) said:
    Rodney Myrvaagnes said:

    If anyone actually knows the reference to Akbar's journal article, I might be able to look it up.

    I don't know who or what "Akbar" is, but see <groups.google.comgroups
    duesseldorf.de>

    and

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=Xns90DD9A7B6FF5sbhattacatattnet%40204.127.36.1>.

    Victor

    Thanks, Victor.

    I past from the first link:

    Martin Golding said:
    Raymond said:

    How fast does alcohol burn off during cooking?

    The table is flawed, as it doesn't mention starting mixture strength. That there's an entry for
    'flamed' would imply liquor, but dishes baked or simmered would imply a mixture of wine and other
    liquids. It would be interesting to find the original report, or reproduce it with a bit more
    rigorous controls.

    Quoted message said:

    Agricultural Research Service, from work done in 1989.


    [snip]

    The study in question is by J. Augustin, E. Augustin, R. Cutrufelli,
    S.Hagen, and C. Teitzel in "Alcohol retention in food preparation," Journal Of The American Dietetic
    Association, Vol 92, No. 4, April 1992. ***************end of paste

    It doesn't sound worth looking for, if it doesn't identify starting points, or is the above
    referring to a different paper?

    Thanks again.

    Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

    "That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore
    forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick I? How can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my
    own husband?"

  20. Wayne Boatwright said:

    blake murphy <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Wayne Boatwright said:

    About the only way I can enjoy vodka is in a spicy bloody

    mary

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    or in orange or grapefruit juice.

    Quoted message said:

    Wayne

    give it a whack with pineapple juice sometime.

    your pal, blake

    Actually, I have, and it's good. Thanks, Blake. I just need something to mix it with that
    overpowers the "rubbing alcohol" flavor. <G>

    Wayne

    Actually,if you ever tasted Gray Goose or Ketel One, or any of the premium vodkas, take it straight
    and very chilled, you'll pick up certain nuances and it shouldn't taste like rubbing ETOH. I've had
    Stoli, and IMO, doesn't come close to the aforementioned ones. Absolut is not bad, Chopin and
    Belvedere are also excellent.

    Want to make it interesting, add some allspice and cloves to it; you can experiment with other
    spices. It's like plain rice, by itself it really tastes bland. But combine it with sacues, cheese,
    et cetera, and you have a base on which to build a mountain of recipes.

    Rich

    --
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.

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