VO2max testing interpretation - implications for training

Roadie_scum said:

I am working with a very talented rider who could probably currently be considered trained, but far from well trained. He has been riding max 10 hours a week. Recently he had a VO2max test and something piqued my interest in the data when combined with my knowledge of his training background.

If anyone wants to confirm my theory or tell me I'm off my tree, either would be welcome, or offer your own ideas.

This rider was a very talented junior, making state and national teams on the road and putting in some good pursuits on the track. He then raced infrequently for a couple of years, before committing a bit more and doing big miles and a good training block, then racing overseas. Whilst racing overseas he was at a similar bodyweight and body composition to now, and he tested at ~80ml/kg/min. Now, a couple of years later, he has tested at ~67ml/kg/min. Obviously this is a long way from his genetic ceiling.

The thing that interested me is that there is not an obvious plateau in his VO2 measurements before cessation of the test. I know this occurs somewhat frequently but I don't have sufficient expertise in examining such tests to really know how often. What I am wondering is this: does the lack of a plateau indicate a different cause of fatigue to a plateau occuring. For example, my thought was that perhaps the rider hasn't truly hit his ceiling for VO2, but instead doesn't have sufficient resistance to neural fatigue of motor units. This might align with his observation that he rarely needs to train with hard VO2max intervals, but instead in the past has effectively pushed up all parts of his power-duration curve with long slow(ish - coggan L2) rides and a little bit of L3-L4 climbing.

This rider has also shown a remarkable ability to oxidise fat in the lab...

So, I'm thinking, if there is any merit to my logic, when training in a time limited environment he should focus on L2-3-4 SST to get similar metabolic adaptions to when he used to ride longer slow rides and push his p-d curve up from the right.

Thoughts, comments, criticisms on any or all of this are welcomed...

Peace,

Roadie

I think you may be overthinking things a bit (well, a lot, actually). The simplest explanation is that one (or both) of the tests doesn't really reflect his true VO2max. That could be due either (or again, both) measurement error, or simlpy failure to provide a maximal effort. However, w/o seeing the complete results of both tests and/or having some additional insight into who made the measurements and how they made them, it's hard to say much more, but the part that I bolded above certainly caught my attention.

acoggan said:

I think you may be overthinking things a bit (well, a lot, actually). The simplest explanation is that one (or both) of the tests doesn't really reflect his true VO2max. That could be due either (or again, both) measurement error, or simlpy failure to provide a maximal effort. However, w/o seeing the complete results of both tests and/or having some additional insight into who made the measurements and how they made them, it's hard to say much more, but the part that I bolded above certainly caught my attention.

Thanks Andy, I do tend to overthink things and your insight is definitely appreciated.

I'm sure of the accuracy of the current test - John Hawley supervised and it was performed by one of his PhD students. It is possible he failed to provide maximal effort as I wasn't there, but it seems unlikely to me. The one a couple of years ago was a lab in France so I don't really know about that, but unless they had both incorrect power measurements and incorrect gas collection and they were off by the same factor, it looks ok, because he achieved a substantially higher MAP in the French test which correlated well with the VO2 achieved (like 60-80W higher for a 68kg rider, from memory w/o looking again).

It was my understanding (which is somewhat limited admittedly - cf a Tim Noakes article) that it is at least not uncommon for riders to fail to reach a true plateau in a VO2max test.

Roadie_scum said:

Thanks Andy, I do tend to overthink things and your insight is definitely appreciated.

I'm sure of the accuracy of the current test - John Hawley supervised and it was performed by one of his PhD students. It is possible he failed to provide maximal effort as I wasn't there, but it seems unlikely to me. The one a couple of years ago was a lab in France so I don't really know about that, but unless they had both incorrect power measurements and incorrect gas collection and they were off by the same factor, it looks ok, because he achieved a substantially higher MAP in the French test which correlated well with the VO2 achieved (like 60-80W higher for a 68kg rider, from memory w/o looking again).

It was my understanding (which is somewhat limited admittedly - cf a Tim Noakes article) that it is at least not uncommon for riders to fail to reach a true plateau in a VO2max test.

The latter depends in part on the test protocol, as well as the motivation and "freshness" of the subject. Given the lack of plateau, though, you can't be certain that the current test really represents the athlete's VO2max (his peak heart rate in relation to his maximal heart rate might give some insight here...I'd also be looking at ventilation and RER). The safest thing to do, then, is simply repeat the test. (And in fact, if I'd been there, was aware that the individual had been measured at 80 mL/min/kg before, and saw no plateau, I would have immediately suggested that they try again.)

P.S. Should you run into John H., please tell him I said hello.

acoggan said:

The latter depends in part on the test protocol, as well as the motivation and "freshness" of the subject. Given the lack of plateau, though, you can't be certain that the current test really represents the athlete's VO2max (his peak heart rate in relation to his maximal heart rate might give some insight here...I'd also be looking at ventilation and RER). The safest thing to do, then, is simply repeat the test. (And in fact, if I'd been there, was aware that the individual had been measured at 80 mL/min/kg before, and saw no plateau, I would have immediately suggested that they try again.)

P.S. Should you run into John H., please tell him I said hello.

I think he might be in the lab when I test on Sunday. Will pass on a hello in the next few weeks whatever the case.

Roadie_scum said:

I think he might be in the lab when I test on Sunday. Will pass on a hello in the next few weeks whatever the case.

Interesting. Are people carrying out many VO2 Max tests nowdays since we have PMs able to deliver pretty instant power profiles?

Well in my case last year I got a VO2 max test for free, while a PM definitely wouldn't be.

-bikeguy

Alex Simmons said:

Interesting. Are people carrying out many VO2 Max tests nowdays since we have PMs able to deliver pretty instant power profiles?

Similar to Bikeguy, the VO2max test was free for this athlete (in fact part of a study for which participants are paid for their time).

I will leave it to the physiologists to comment as to the true usefulness of basic lab tests if powermeters are available.

acoggan said:

P.S. Should you run into John H., please tell him I said hello.

Andy, was going to PM you, but it turns out you have PMs disabled:

John H returns the hello - his face lit up when I mentioned your name. It's quite obvious he has a fair amount of respect and affection for you.