VO2max Intervals

robkit said:

Please share your experience of VO2max intervals.

What works for you in terms of number, duration, recovery duration, and in particular how many watts do you ride above the power you can maintain for 20 minutes?

Intuitively I'm thinking the intention is to hit max HR, is this correct?

I just tried a session of 5x5 mins but I must be having an off day or expecting too much - failed in the 3rd interval at only 20watts above the power I use for a 20 min LT interval. My heart rate peaked at about 5 bpm under max in the last 2 mins of the intervals.

First, turn off the HR display. This sentiment will be echoed here I bet.

Coggan suggest 106-120%, I think one should start at 106% and work up from there. Re-do the zone, make sure you didn't start too high, especially if you are just starting out. Inferring your 20 watts above FT, your FT is 333w right?

I do 6x(6,3) after racing all year. That is six minutes on, rest three minutes, six times. Early in the year, I wouldn't be able to do this. So, start with 3-4 minute efforts with 1:1 rest at 106%. Gradually increase work, decrease rest, increase watts throughout your training period.

I follow a little different approach to these intervals (actually, all intervals). It's easy to describe but harder to explain. The short answer is that I do L5 (VO2MAX) intervals for durations ranging from 3-8 mins and at power equal to 90% of my MP for that duration. I follow Andy Coggan's power training schema and it calls for power at 106%-120% of FT for L5s. But, that's a pretty big range (290w-330w). So, I ride them at the top end of the range for the short end of duration (330w/3min) and vice versa for the top end of duration (290w/8min). This turns out to be ~90% of my MP for these durations. For example, my peak 3min power is 362w (90%=326w) and my peak 8min power is 326w (90%=293w). Getting my peak power for any duration is dead-easy with CP -- I just do a mean maximal NP chart for the duration(s) of interest. Or, I can pick them off the power/duration curve. I almost never go out and do repeats. Rather, I work these intervals into my rides on terrain with varying grade. Recovery varies as a function of both power and duration, but at this level recovery durations range from 0.5-1:1. Some segments lend themselves to the longer L5s and other segments lend themselves to the shorter L5s. Like I said, short answer but long explanation.

robkit said:

Please share your experience of VO2max intervals.

What works for you in terms of number, duration, recovery duration, and in particular how many watts do you ride above the power you can maintain for 20 minutes?

Intuitively I'm thinking the intention is to hit max HR, is this correct?

I just tried a session of 5x5 mins but I must be having an off day or expecting too much - failed in the 3rd interval at only 20watts above the power I use for a 20 min LT interval. My heart rate peaked at about 5 bpm under max in the last 2 mins of the intervals.

I am using 5 x 4 min. intervals with 4 min. recovery. I was up to 120% of my 1 hr power at the peak of my season. That works out to 115% of my 20 min. interval power or 50 watts more. My heart rate hits over 97% of max. usually.

I don't do 5 min intervals at this time, but I would probably try them at 112-113% of my 1 hr power, or 25 to 30 watts over my 20 min power.

I think of the 106 to 120% of FT power guideline as dependant on duration, ie: 3 min intervals done at ~120%, 8 min intervals done at ~106%

I have a question about how to use the power tap correctly. A little about my stats, 38 male, 160lbs, sprinter build, Cat 3, max HR 210, can hit that easily, ride crits at 195-205 & can finish but have nothing to sprint with or bridge gaps with in RR. I would like to increase my aerobic power so I’m not as pegged in a race. I have had my power tap for about 3 months & have been gathering a bunch of numbers. I have read a bunch of your post and some I cannot comprehend, (on my part) too much info. I did a simple plan, I simplee road a certain wattage as long as I could up to the point where it was either real hard to hold watts anymore, legs just failed or HR went to high causing me to go anaerobic which I did not continue to hold it anymore. Here’s what I can hold certain wattage at, these are all done on rollers with resistance & cadence is about 80rpm

(1) 30min at 225watts, Hr starts at 160-165 then increases gradually in time to 175,176 the last 2-3min of the interval. (This is about 84% max HR)
(3) 10min at 250watts, Hr 170-185, its 185 the last 2min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)
(5) 4min at 275watts, Hr 180-185, its 185 the last 1min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)

This one in on a 5% hill, that last only 2minutes
(10) 2min at 300watts, Hr 180-185, its 189, 190 the last 20sec of the interval. (This is 90% max HR)

My 10mi TT is 22mph on a flat course, pretty pitiful for a cat 3, want to up that.
Did a 65mile masters 35+ race in July, got the winning 7 man break at mile 3, that held 25-28mph and rode 1hr:44min straight, above HR 190, (194ave) could work with them very, very little, but just stayed with the group until legs just went away, NEED help on getting a larger aerobic capacity.

Can anyone tell me if these workouts sound correct for what I want to accomplish and/or is there a better approach.
I would appreciate any advice.

I have a question about how to use the power tap correctly. A little about my stats, 38 male, 160lbs, sprinter build, Cat 3, max HR 210, can hit that easily, ride crits at 195-205 & can finish but have nothing to sprint with or bridge gaps with in RR. I would like to increase my aerobic power so I’m not as pegged in a race. I have had my power tap for about 3 months & have been gathering a bunch of numbers. I have read a bunch of your post and some I cannot comprehend, (on my part) too much info. I did a simple plan, I simplee road certain wattages as long as I could up to the point where it was either real hard to hold watts anymore, legs just failed or HR went to high causing me to go anaerobic which I did not continue to hold it anymore. Here’s what I can hold certain wattages at, these are all done on rollers with resistance & cadence is about 80rpm

(1) 30min at 225watts, Hr starts at 160-165 then increases gradually in time to 175,176 the last 2-3min of the interval. (This is about 84% max HR)
(3) 10min at 250watts, Hr 170-185, its 185 the last 2min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)
(5) 4min at 275watts, Hr 180-185, its 185 the last 1min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)

This one in on a 5% hill, that last only 2minutes
(10) 2min at 300watts, Hr 180-185, its 189, 190 the last 20sec of the interval. (This is 90% max HR)

My 10mi TT is 22mph on a flat course, pretty pitiful for a cat 3, want to up that.
Did a 65mile masters 35+ race in July, got the winning 7 man break at mile 3, that held 25-28mph and rode 1hr:44min straight, above HR 190, (194ave) could work with them very, very little, but just stayed with the group until legs just went away, NEED help on getting a larger aerobic capacity.

Can anyone tell me if these workouts sound correct for what I want to accomplish and/or is there a better approach.
I would appreciate any advice.

jeff828 said:

Can anyone tell me if these workouts sound correct for what I want to accomplish and/or is there a better approach. I would appreciate any advice.

I guess I don't understand. The data you posted are basically power tests (max power at different durations), not workouts. Are you asking if your power at different durations is consistent with others or are you asking about workouts to increase power?

RapDaddyo said:

I guess I don't understand. The data you posted are basically power tests (max power at different durations), not workouts. Are you asking if your power at different durations is consistent with others or are you asking about workouts to increase power?

These are power tests I have done to see what I can hold and for how long. I have been doing these also as my intervals (eg 3x10min @250watts is the one I am doing the most) I guess I am asking if this is the way to increase my power. What would you suggest I do as a workout to increase power for duration with these test numbers I put up.
Thanks

cat 2 - 6x 350w@4min:3min. My FT is about 315-320. Last 90 seconds of these require a large amount of concentration and self-bullying.

I would stay away from 5 minute+ efforts for vo2 workouts... But that's based upon questionable literature.

rouleur said:

cat 2 - 6x 350w@4min:3min. My FT is about 315-320. Last 90 seconds of these require a large amount of concentration and self-bullying.

I would stay away from 5 minute+ efforts for vo2 workouts... But that's based upon questionable literature.

its tough to know what is the optimal duration.

its seems to be thought that VO2max can only be achieved with a workout of minimum 3 mins, and held for a max of 8 mins.

linking that with Coggans 106-120% benchmark we might conclude that 3 min intervals should be at 120% through to 8 mins at 106% and 5 mins at about 112%.

physcologically, and from my experience, i beleive it is going to be harder to hold 112% for five mins than 120% for 3.

jeff828 said:

These are power tests I have done to see what I can hold and for how long. I have been doing these also as my intervals (eg 3x10min @250watts is the one I am doing the most) I guess I am asking if this is the way to increase my power. What would you suggest I do as a workout to increase power for duration with these test numbers I put up.
Thanks

Well, I certainly don't claim to be an expert at training programs, but I'll make a few observations on what you are doing. First, there is usually a difference between testing one's power at a given duration and training intervals. Training adaptations are typically achieved at power levels less than one's max power at a duration. So, your 3x10min-250w intervals are being done at your 10MP. These intervals (10min) are basically at the low end of L4 (LT) intervals. You should be able to achieve your adaptation objectives at less power (e.g., ~95%-105%FT). Assuming your FT is a little less than your 30MP, let's assume for the moment that your FT=220w. So, your L4 intervals (10min-30min) can be done at 209w-231w. The major consequence is that you will be able to spend more time at 209w-231w in an hour than you can at 250w (due to the longer recovery time at 250w). So, think of it this way. Doing your L4 intervals at 250w is a poor use of a 1-hour training ride because you have to waste too much time in recovery. You can achieve the desired LT adaptation at 209w-231w and get in more high-intensity time in an hour. Personally, I follow Andy Coggan's training and testing schema here midweekclub.cacoggan.pdfOpen ↗. This document covers both training and testing.

Jeff,

You're correct in your thoughts -- your limiter does indeed appear to be aerobic capacity, and with that in mind you need to increase your sustainable power, and your MAP. There's several ways to cover these needs, which are long efforts (up to ~ 90-mins) at a high percentage of your 1-hr TT power (e.g., 85 - 90%), efforts of up to 30 to 60 mins at 95 - 100 % of your TT power, and efforts at 80 - 100 % of MAP for up to a few mins (e.g., ~ 5+ mins).

The specific 'mix' that you'd need would depend in part on your goals, when your next races are, when you needed to be fit by, and importantly how much training time you have available to you.

If you're unsure how to plan your training, or need some coaching then don't hesitate to give me a shout,

cheers
ric

jeff828 said:

I have a question about how to use the power tap correctly. A little about my stats, 38 male, 160lbs, sprinter build, Cat 3, max HR 210, can hit that easily, ride crits at 195-205 & can finish but have nothing to sprint with or bridge gaps with in RR. I would like to increase my aerobic power so I’m not as pegged in a race. I have had my power tap for about 3 months & have been gathering a bunch of numbers. I have read a bunch of your post and some I cannot comprehend, (on my part) too much info. I did a simple plan, I simplee road certain wattages as long as I could up to the point where it was either real hard to hold watts anymore, legs just failed or HR went to high causing me to go anaerobic which I did not continue to hold it anymore. Here’s what I can hold certain wattages at, these are all done on rollers with resistance & cadence is about 80rpm

(1) 30min at 225watts, Hr starts at 160-165 then increases gradually in time to 175,176 the last 2-3min of the interval. (This is about 84% max HR)
(3) 10min at 250watts, Hr 170-185, its 185 the last 2min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)
(5) 4min at 275watts, Hr 180-185, its 185 the last 1min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)

This one in on a 5% hill, that last only 2minutes
(10) 2min at 300watts, Hr 180-185, its 189, 190 the last 20sec of the interval. (This is 90% max HR)

My 10mi TT is 22mph on a flat course, pretty pitiful for a cat 3, want to up that.
Did a 65mile masters 35+ race in July, got the winning 7 man break at mile 3, that held 25-28mph and rode 1hr:44min straight, above HR 190, (194ave) could work with them very, very little, but just stayed with the group until legs just went away, NEED help on getting a larger aerobic capacity.

Can anyone tell me if these workouts sound correct for what I want to accomplish and/or is there a better approach.
I would appreciate any advice.

And obviously as the amount of time "in zone" decreases, repitition must increase... 8min x3, 4min x6, whatever... What I like about the 4 minute intervals is the ability to put down an additional interval or two if I'm having a good day. It's a bit more difficult if you're doing the 8 minute thing.

I don't know about the psychological thing of 112%-120% - I'm not sure the difference is entirely perceptable, given daily fluctuations in "interval readiness". Sleep, diet, stress, cummulative training load, etc, all have an effect on the PE for a given wattage level.

robkit said:

its tough to know what is the optimal duration.

its seems to be thought that VO2max can only be achieved with a workout of minimum 3 mins, and held for a max of 8 mins.

linking that with Coggans 106-120% benchmark we might conclude that 3 min intervals should be at 120% through to 8 mins at 106% and 5 mins at about 112%.

physcologically, and from my experience, i beleive it is going to be harder to hold 112% for five mins than 120% for 3.

jeff828 said:

I have a question about how to use the power tap correctly. A little about my stats, 38 male, 160lbs, sprinter build, Cat 3, max HR 210, can hit that easily, ride crits at 195-205 & can finish but have nothing to sprint with or bridge gaps with in RR. I would like to increase my aerobic power so I’m not as pegged in a race. I have had my power tap for about 3 months & have been gathering a bunch of numbers. I have read a bunch of your post and some I cannot comprehend, (on my part) too much info. I did a simple plan, I simplee road certain wattages as long as I could up to the point where it was either real hard to hold watts anymore, legs just failed or HR went to high causing me to go anaerobic which I did not continue to hold it anymore. Here’s what I can hold certain wattages at, these are all done on rollers with resistance & cadence is about 80rpm

(1) 30min at 225watts, Hr starts at 160-165 then increases gradually in time to 175,176 the last 2-3min of the interval. (This is about 84% max HR)
(3) 10min at 250watts, Hr 170-185, its 185 the last 2min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)
(5) 4min at 275watts, Hr 180-185, its 185 the last 1min of the interval. (This is 88% max HR)

This one in on a 5% hill, that last only 2minutes
(10) 2min at 300watts, Hr 180-185, its 189, 190 the last 20sec of the interval. (This is 90% max HR)

My 10mi TT is 22mph on a flat course, pretty pitiful for a cat 3, want to up that.
Did a 65mile masters 35+ race in July, got the winning 7 man break at mile 3, that held 25-28mph and rode 1hr:44min straight, above HR 190, (194ave) could work with them very, very little, but just stayed with the group until legs just went away, NEED help on getting a larger aerobic capacity.

Can anyone tell me if these workouts sound correct for what I want to accomplish and/or is there a better approach.
I would appreciate any advice.

I am a mediocre cat 4 on the road and my w/kg figures are a higher than the ones you listed and I am trying to figure out - how did you upgrade to cat 3? Not a diss, I have the exact same problem you have but in the cat 4's. 🙂
a.) you may want to check your powertap via the stomp test, make sure you are zeroing before every ride
b.) review the first six articles as suggested by Charles Howe at:
http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/
c.) I think you should be able to do better but may not be able to motivate yourself during these intervals or terrain and traffic may interfere. The apparent low time trial figure kind of points that out. What I have found personally is that if I can maintain isopower I can maintain a higher average than if I try to extend myself a little bit on steep bits and at the ripe old age of 40 have been besting hill climb marks I set at 35.
d.) the long road race problem may just be nutrition/hydration as you were able to keep up - if you have a power file from the race you should be able to determine if it was lack or lower top end power.

[quote="RapDaddyo"]Well, I certainly don't claim to be an expert at training programs, but I'll make a few observations on what you are doing. QUOTE]

I have been reading your threads and you do seem to know a lot, way more than me.


Thank you ric for your advice, I have contacted you about a year ago on a similar question when I didnt have a power tap.


Woofer: [I am a mediocre cat 4 on the road and my w/kg figures are a higher than the ones you listed and I am trying to figure out - how did you upgrade to cat 3? Not a diss, I have the exact same problem you have but in the cat 4's.]

No offence taken. I started placing consistantly in top 10 every weekend for about 15 races until the rep urged me to move up, along with experience, all but 2 were in crits. I just figuered out how to manuver around the pack & when I need to.
As we know about racing, the strongest guy doesnt always win, racing smarter is better than brut force and "position" is key, especially in crits, so over the few years in cat 4 racing pegged I started taking note on how the "pack" was racing at the end of the crit, usually the 4s surge and slow, surge and slow. What I found out was on the bell lap they would get excited and crank the speed up (like 30-32mph) only to slow a touch on the back side because they were either a little tired, setting up for the sprint to come or could not or would not hold that pace until the end, because you dont want to lead out for a full lap, thats all I needed, a few seconds to rest, so when they slowed for those split seconds, I carried my momentum and moved up into a better position and once you come out of the last corner the race is basically only against the top 10-15 guys, someone from 30th is not going to pass 20 guys to get top 10, theres not a long enough straight & by then the speed is already wound up to max. I raced bmx for 15 years and still do, so the snap out of the corner also helped me get up to speed faster and pick a few guys off.
Road races with the finish line in sight from 1k or more, I did horrible since the speed would jack up to 30+ and they would hold it causing me to go to a 53x14 and totally be anaerobic so I was spent before even starting to sprint.

The 3s are totally different.

I just rode with a guy this weekend in a 12hr race that posted a lap time (40min laps)10sec off the pace of a cat 1 that used to race with the Jittery Joes team and did half the Tour de Georgia. And he has trouble racing in the cat 4 field, so he has the horsepower, I havent the foggiest why he struggles. Alot comes down to knowing how to race.



Thanks again to all of you for your imput, I will try and put this info to good use.

As I read your last post about your preferred races and your race strategy, it occurred to me that you may want to investigate the supramaximal intervals of short duration (e.g., 30s). These have been shown to increase both LT and VO2MAX as well as short-term sprint power. These would seem to help you for the last lap. There is an interesting article on this type of interval training here ausport.gov.auLAUR.pdfOpen ↗.

RapDaddyo said:

As I read your last post about your preferred races and your race strategy, it occurred to me that you may want to investigate the supramaximal intervals of short duration (e.g., 30s). These have been shown to increase both LT and VO2MAX as well as short-term sprint power. These would seem to help you for the last lap. There is an interesting article on this type of interval training here ausport.gov.auLAUR.pdfOpen ↗.

Interesting article. The only think I can think of is they built a lot of muscular strength.

Here is my though on power & duration. I think that is the most important, you want to be able to hold more power for a longer period of time and "not" go anaerobic, the more aerobic you can stay the better. I read a post saying we all can produce just as much as lance on alp d huez (400+) but we cant hold it as long as him and he was probably at or below threshold. If your in a group ride and the pace is a steady 25mph notice how some people are comfortable, some are struggling a little and some are falling off the pace after a few minutes, and thats without any surges. What is their limiting factor? They can only produce that power for a few seconds/minutes before going anaerobic and falling off the pace. Whats your take on it.

jeff828 said:

If your in a group ride and the pace is a steady 25mph notice how some people are comfortable, some are struggling a little and some are falling off the pace after a few minutes, and thats without any surges. What is their limiting factor? They can only produce that power for a few seconds/minutes before going anaerobic and falling off the pace. Whats your take on it.

LT or anaerobic threshold. FT, whatever. The more watts you can produce longer aerobically, the better off you are.

The people off the back are into anaerobic zones, and they'll only last 4 minutes.

jeff828 said:

Interesting article. The only think I can think of is they built a lot of muscular strength.

Well, the obvious result was the increase in sprint power. The non-obvious results were the increases in LT and VO2MAX.

jeff828 said:

Here is my thought on power & duration. I think that is the most important, you want to be able to hold more power for a longer period of time and "not" go anaerobic, the more aerobic you can stay the better. I read a post saying we all can produce just as much as lance on alp d huez (400+) but we cant hold it as long as him and he was probably at or below threshold. If your in a group ride and the pace is a steady 25mph notice how some people are comfortable, some are struggling a little and some are falling off the pace after a few minutes, and thats without any surges. What is their limiting factor? They can only produce that power for a few seconds/minutes before going anaerobic and falling off the pace. Whats your take on it.

What you're observing is differences in sustainable power, as Spunout said. More sustainable power is the Holy Grail of cycling (other than for sprint specialists). The issue is how to get it. You don't necessarily go out and ride the durations you are training for. For example, if your objective is to increase your max sustainable 1 hr power, you could go out and ride an hour every day as fast as possible. But, you would probably make more progress toward your objective by doing 20 min repeats at a higher pace. Training rides are intended to produce a specific adaptation (e.g., LT, VO2MAX, neuromuscular). It takes different combinations of power/duration to produce the desired adaptation.

RapDaddyo said:

More sustainable power is the Holy Grail of cycling (other than for sprint specialists)..

Qualify This: Track sprinters, right?

The road sprinter (Zabel, McEwen) still has to make it to the line in as good or better condition than everyone else. That demands as good or better aerobic power than the competitors.

Guys like Boonen (moreso, Valverde) are true allrounders. They have won from small groups where the best rouleurs, climbers have been dropped and still win a sprint.