vo2 or not ,that is Question

bubba 02 said:

Sunday I raced a 90 minute critt , High stress score, lotta max efforts.. As of right now I'm tring to increase my Lt and boost vo2 so ,training plan called for tuesday- vo2 efforts... No way! could complete Maybe 2 of 5. So with that said should I abort everytime I can't complete vo2 and drop my ride to recovery so I can complete later in the week?, or skip w/out till next tuesday, or Push threw as best? thanx Bubba

It's the time of year when this question comes up a lot. A similar thread was posted on the Wattage lists this week.

Personally when I can't handle the planned workout I start by dropping a level. So in your case of VO2 Max being too tough, I'd spin a bit and try a 20 minute L4 effort or maybe 30 minutes of high SST. If that isn't gonna happen then I turn around and spin home. I don't try to make up missed workouts later in the week but try to stay with my original schedule.

If spinning home on Tuesday doesn't leave me fresh enough for my planned Wednesday workout then I figure I'm really in a deep hole and typically finish out the week with SST/Tempo work and skip the high end stuff, especially if I'm racing on the coming weekend.

Other folks feel differently and many just scrap the workout at first sign of difficulty. I can't argue with that approach, but IME spinning home doesn't automatically put you back on track for the following day and swapping L5 work for SST/L4 work isn't a bad trade.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

It's the time of year when this question comes up a lot. A similar thread was posted on the Wattage lists this week.

Personally when I can't handle the planned workout I start by dropping a level. So in your case of VO2 Max being too tough, I'd spin a bit and try a 20 minute L4 effort or maybe 30 minutes of high SST. If that isn't gonna happen then I turn around and spin home. I don't try to make up missed workouts later in the week but try to stay with my original schedule.

If spinning home on Tuesday doesn't leave me fresh enough for my planned Wednesday workout then I figure I'm really in a deep hole and typically finish out the week with SST/Tempo work and skip the high end stuff, especially if I'm racing on the coming weekend.

Other folks feel differently and many just scrap the workout at first sign of difficulty. I can't argue with that approach, but IME spinning home doesn't automatically put you back on track for the following day and swapping L5 work for SST/L4 work isn't a bad trade.

-Dave

I'm pretty much the same way as you. If I can't do what was planned then I take it down a level and work from there. There's always something to be had from a session - even if it's an hour out on the bike freshening the legs and burning a few calories.

If I'd had a really hard race at the weekend and I'd already started feeling pretty grim (eg. very sore legs or I'd bonked during the race and still felt like I had hollow legs) that same evening, I'd always make a point of going out on the follow day even though I never had anything planned training wise for a Monday. It cut down on the number of sessions that were 'cut down' on a Tuesday quite a bit. Gotta keep those lil' legs movin'.

I'd only scrap the session completely is there was a strong feeling that any feeling of discomfort that I could have picked up an injury or a feeling of pending illness.

bubba 02 said:

Sunday I raced a 90 minute critt , High stress score, lotta max efforts.. As of right now I'm tring to increase my Lt and boost vo2 so ,training plan called for tuesday- vo2 efforts... No way! could complete Maybe 2 of 5. So with that said should I abort everytime I can't complete vo2 and drop my ride to recovery so I can complete later in the week?, or skip w/out till next tuesday, or Push threw as best? thanx Bubba

Takin' any ibuprofen beforehand?? Jus' kiddin'😄 .

Seriously though...what's the duration of your Vo2 efforts? If they're 3mins+, then IMO you're going too long. I've shortened my L5 efforts to 1.5mins to 2mins with success verified by lab results. I do at least 5 of these and will work up to 8 in a single Vo2 max session. Frequency of reaching Vo2 max over duration at Vo2max is working for me. YMMV.

To answer your immediate question on whether to abort and ride L1/recovery - I say "yes" in order to prepare for your next hard workout. IMO, additional time at L4 or L3 after failing on your L5 workout is not going to facilitate what you really need, which is more recovery. Also, I would not go back to that L5 workout later in the week.

What are you doing Monday? If you're not taking the whole day off, IMO you should be, or at the very most 30mins of L1.

I'm no expert, but have the lab test results to support my approach. Take my advice for what it's worth...

I was going to shorten my intervals down to 3 minutes because of something Dr Coggan said about this awhile back. But 2 minutes? Man I wish that were true can a Guru chime in on that comment. I would definitely prefer 2 minutes but I have my doubts about the results it sounds L6ish.

tonyzackery said:

If they're 3mins+, then IMO you're going too long. I've shortened my L5 efforts to 1.5mins to 2mins with success verified by lab results. I do at least 5 of these and will work up to 8 in a single Vo2 max session. Frequency of reaching Vo2 max over duration at Vo2max is working for me. YMMV.

wiredued said:

I was going to shorten my intervals down to 3 minutes because of something Dr Coggan said about this awhile back. But 2 minutes? Man I wish that were true can a Guru chime in on that comment. I would definitely prefer 2 minutes but I have my doubts about the results it sounds L6ish.

Definitely not claiming guru status, but there are differing schools of thought on this subject.

I can't argue with Tony's success but I buy into the accumulated time while eliciting a VO2 Max response philosophy. IIRC Tony goes with the frequency of eliciting VO2 Max response and I think Andy has a theory that it's how often you hit (I'm not sure if sustain is in his theory) max HR that determine effectiveness of VO2 Max training.

I think the consistent part is eliciting either max HR or VO2 Max response. So if you drop those L5 efforts to 2.5 minutes I'd still want to make sure I got myself all the way up to VO2 Max with all the discomfort that implies.

I'm not sure there's a definitive answer to this one, but FWIW I currently believe in the 3 to 5 minute L5 interval approach.

-Dave

wiredued said:

I was going to shorten my intervals down to 3 minutes because of something Dr Coggan said about this awhile back. But 2 minutes? Man I wish that were true can a Guru chime in on that comment. I would definitely prefer 2 minutes but I have my doubts about the results it sounds L6ish.

74.125.95.132searchOpen ↗

Posted this article a while back on the 'Ibuprofen...Vo2max intervals' thread.

Subsequent L5 intervals using the contained information are incumbent on you knowing your minimum wattage to elicit Vo2max (Pmax), and the max time you can maintain working at Pmax (Tmax). For L5 intervals, you'd use your Pmax and 60% of Tmax. Considering my Tmax from the first lab test was about 3mins, my intervals have been in 1.5min-2.5min range - (180s * .6 = 108s).

As stated in the article, the goal is to obtain the desired training adaptation with the least amount of work, thereby precluding (hopefully) overtraining.

Do you guys hit max hr during VO2max intervals? I've only ever hit my peak hr during a computrainer MAP test and during hard mtb rides/races. Never on the road bike. Maybe I'm not trying as hard as I think I am.

The quote I'm thinking of from the always thought provoking Dr Coggan:

cyclingforums.comt 467608 15 2.htmlOpen ↗

"My pet theory is that improvements in VO2max pertain to the frequency/degree with which you attain/approach maximal cardiac output. It's just a theory, though."

I bet approaching max hr happens more often than attaining it does.

strader said:

Do you guys hit max hr during VO2max intervals? I've only ever hit my peak hr during a computrainer MAP test and during hard mtb rides/races. Never on the road bike. Maybe I'm not trying as hard as I think I am.

wiredued said:

...I bet approaching max hr happens more often than attaining it does.

Good catch, I was pulling that from memory and didn't remember the "attain/approach" subtlety.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Andy has a theory that it's how often you hit (I'm not sure if sustain is in his theory) max HR that determine effectiveness of VO2 Max training.

In addition to the "approach vs. attain" caveat, the other distinction I would draw would be between maximal heart rate and maximal cardiac output. IOW, I'm not at all convinced that just getting your heart to beat really fast (e.g., by encouraging cardiac drift) is the answer...

strader said:

Do you guys hit max hr during VO2max intervals?

The simple rule-of-thumb that I've used in lab-based training studies is that, during 5 min intervals aimed at increasing VO2max, heart rate should get w/in 10 beats/min of maximum (although this goal may in fact not be achievable during the first effort or two, at least not w/o creating undue fatigue). Using this approach (and with such sessions performed 2-3x/wk), the VO2max of previously untrained young men and women has typically increased by ~10% in 10 d and 25-30% in 12 wk.

tonyzackery said:

Subsequent L5 intervals using the contained information are incumbent on you knowing your minimum wattage to elicit Vo2max (Pmax), and the max time you can maintain working at Pmax (Tmax). For L5 intervals, you'd use your Pmax and 60% of Tmax. Considering my Tmax from the first lab test was about 3mins, my intervals have been in 1.5min-2.5min range - (180s * .6 = 108s).

I've never had lab testing done, but 3 minutes for Tmax seems significantly shorter than I would guess. Can we get some other data points from folks that have had Pmax testing done and could compare to some time value on their mean maximal power chart?

For me, 5min MMP is about 12% higher than "120% of FTP" (VO2max approximation, although Pmax might even be a bit lower). Granted there's some guestimation involved, but I'd expect my Pmax to be in the 6min+ ballpark. That'd put 60% interval durations for me in the 3.6min range (which is fairly close to what I'm already doing.

acoggan said:

The simple rule-of-thumb that I've used in lab-based training studies is that, during 5 min intervals aimed at increasing VO2max, heart rate should get w/in 10 beats/min of maximum (although this goal may in fact not be achievable during the first effort or two, at least not w/o creating undue fatigue). Using this approach (and with such sessions performed 2-3x/wk), the VO2max of previously untrained young men and women has typically increased by ~10% in 10 d and 25-30% in 12 wk.

just wondering if you monitor HR at all these days during your own or prescribed Vo2max training?

rmur17 said:

just wondering if you monitor HR at all these days during your own or prescribed Vo2max training?

I stopped recording heart rate data a little over a year ago, when our last chest strap died and I couldn't come up with a good reason to buy another one.

frenchyge said:

Can we get some other data points from folks that have had Pmax testing done and could compare to some time value on their mean maximal power chart?

Me (below average anaerobic capacity): 4 min 4 s

My wife when she won elite nationals (above average anaerobic capacity): at least 5 min 16 s

("at least" because highest 5+ min power of the year occurred during warm-up for last pre-nationals track workout)

EDIT 1: Based on a critical power analysis, it appears that that 5 min 16 s effort was very close to maximal, i.e., her Tmax at Pmax wouldn't be much higher than that.

EDIT 2: Note that since women tend to have lower anaerobic capacities than men, even when expressed relative to lean body mass, Tmax at Pmax will tend to be lower in women than in men. IOW, a man with an above average anaerobic capacity would have a Tmax at Pmax >> ~5 min.

frenchyge said:

I've never had lab testing done, but 3 minutes for Tmax seems significantly shorter than I would guess. Can we get some other data points from folks that have had Pmax testing done and could compare to some time value on their mean maximal power chart?

For me, 5min MMP is about 12% higher than "120% of FTP" (VO2max approximation, although Pmax might even be a bit lower). Granted there's some guestimation involved, but I'd expect my Pmax to be in the 6min+ ballpark. That'd put 60% interval durations for me in the 3.6min range (which is fairly close to what I'm already doing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're losing sight of the fact that Tmax is determined during the course of the total Vo2max testing. IOW, your Tmax is not simply a single timed event where you try to hold your Wmax for as long as you can.

I'm quite certain I can hold Wmax for longer than 3mins if I was to start fresh at Wmax. During the Vo2 testing you're building in stages to your Vo2max; at least a 9min duration is what I'm aware of. As wattage increases so does your lactate levels and accompanying fatigue, such that trying to maintain Wmax as long as you possibly can is extremely difficult.

tonyzackery said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're losing sight of the fact that Tmax is determined during the course of the total Vo2max testing. IOW, your Tmax is not simply a single timed event where you try to hold your Wmax for as long as you can.

I'm quite certain I can hold Wmax for longer than 3mins if I was to start fresh at Wmax. During the Vo2 testing you're building in stages to your Vo2max; at least a 9min duration is what I'm aware of. As wattage increases so does your lactate levels and accompanying fatigue, such that trying to maintain Wmax as long as you possibly can is extremely difficult.

Ok, I wasn't aware of that and you're right that would change things from my end. However, if Tmax is protocol dependent then it would be important to make sure the study used the same protocol to determine Tmax as was used in your lab test, if you wanted the same 60% value to be true.

In looking back through the study abstract you posted, I discovered a potential issue: the study defines Tmax as "time to achieve VO2max" rather than max time that VO2 can be held***. So, I'm not sure the 60% used in the study is really the same as what you've been using.

*** Edit: maybe not, I can't really tell without reading the complete study more carefully, which I'll have to do later.

frenchyge said:

Ok, I wasn't aware of that and you're right that would change things from my end. However, if Tmax is protocol dependent then it would be important to make sure the study used the same protocol to determine Tmax as was used in your lab test, if you wanted the same 60% value to be true.

In looking back through the study abstract you posted, I discovered a potential issue: the study defines Tmax as "time to achieve VO2max" rather than max time that VO2 can be held***. So, I'm not sure the 60% used in the study is really the same as what you've been using.

*** Edit: maybe not, I can't really tell without reading the complete study more carefully, which I'll have to do later.

No prob. I will be the first to admit that I've made my own arbitrary adjustments to the protocol stated in the article, with the sole purpose of making the efforts a little easier to preclude ibuprofen overdose😄.

My lab tech hooked me onto using Tmax as the time I maintained Wmax during my lab test. It made sense to me and anything that would serve to shorten the L5 intervals - I was all for it.

acoggan said:

I stopped recording heart rate data a little over a year ago, when our last chest strap died and I couldn't come up with a good reason to buy another one.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee