Vive la France!

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why such a complicated conspiracy,

Some people have invested a ton of emotional energy in Lance.

A complicated conspiracy is easier for them to digest than admitting their
hero worship was misplaced.

benjo maso said:

I have read the last few days all kind of accusations to the French. They
are the worst chauvinists of the world, they hate foreigners in general and
Americans in particular, they can't stand not winning their own Tour, are
looking for revenge, etc.. But if this is all true, why has none of those
narrow-minded chauvinists, intent on revenge, tried to prevent Armstrong
winning? Why such a complicated conspiracy, if it would be so easy to make
him fall, and so easy to conceal it was on purpose, especially in the last
kilometers of the clims. But no Frenchman ever tried to to such a thing in
the Tour, not only in the last seven years, but never. The only possible
exception is the blow Merckx recieved in the climb to Puy-de-Dôme in 1975,
but it has never become clear if it was on purpose or not. While the Italian
public tried more than once to obstruct foreign riders sometimes in a very
dangerous way, in France it never happened. In the mountains foreign riders
are even pushed if they are in difficulty. What's more, the direction has
always done everything to convince the best foreign riders to participate to
the Tour, even at the expense of the French champions. Henri Desgrange paid
a lot of money to Binda to bring him to France. In 1948 Goddet and Lévitan
even changed the rules, to make it possible for Coppi and Bartali to come to
France, although they knew very well that they were much stronger than the
best French riders. The direction twice decided to allow commercial teams to
ride the Tour instead of national teams, because Van Looy in 1962 and Merckx
in 1969 had made it clear that otherwise they would continue to boycot the
Tour. And all those measures were not against the will of the French people.
On the contrary. Coppi was even more popular in France than in Italy. Merckx
was venerated by the French public. Greg Lemond was also very well-liked and
the French even acclaimed him loudly when he had beaten a Frenchman on the
very last day. It's true that Armstrong has never been very popular, but
this had undoubtedly much to do with the way he presented himself. Anyway,
last month the French public cheered him more than before. Detractors might
say that is was because they were glad to get ride of him, but they cheered
him all the same. The Tour de France is unique, the most beautiful sports
event in the world, thanks to the riders in the first place, but also thanks
to the French public.

Benjo

Thanks Benjo.
When I first made it to France, I was a bit ashamed of what I had been
led to expect of the French, considering what I had been led to expect.

Steve

Quoted message said:

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Benjo,

I have no word for to express my gratitude.
By the references you gave with names such as Henri Desgrange, el
Campionissimo Fausto Coppi (God bless him), unforgetable Rik Van Looy, I
understand that you know what you are talking about.

When young I remember Robert Chapatte on the motocycle following Federico
Bahamontès, the "Aigle de Tolede".
I had a poster in my room because I had no TV; But he was my hero, even if
he was Spanish, even he I was a French children.

Merci, from the heart.

Vive le Tour de France

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have read the last few days all kind of accusations to the French. They
are the worst chauvinists of the world, they hate foreigners in general and
Americans in particular, they can't stand not winning their own Tour, are
looking for revenge, etc.. But if this is all true, why has none of those
narrow-minded chauvinists, intent on revenge, tried to prevent Armstrong
winning? Why such a complicated conspiracy, if it would be so easy to make
him fall, and so easy to conceal it was on purpose, especially in the last
kilometers of the clims. But no Frenchman ever tried to to such a thing in
the Tour, not only in the last seven years, but never. The only possible
exception is the blow Merckx recieved in the climb to Puy-de-Dôme in 1975,
but it has never become clear if it was on purpose or not. While the
Italian public tried more than once to obstruct foreign riders sometimes in
a very dangerous way, in France it never happened. In the mountains foreign
riders are even pushed if they are in difficulty. What's more, the
direction has always done everything to convince the best foreign riders to
participate to the Tour, even at the expense of the French champions. Henri
Desgrange paid a lot of money to Binda to bring him to France. In 1948
Goddet and Lévitan even changed the rules, to make it possible for Coppi
and Bartali to come to France, although they knew very well that they were
much stronger than the best French riders. The direction twice decided to
allow commercial teams to ride the Tour instead of national teams, because
Van Looy in 1962 and Merckx in 1969 had made it clear that otherwise they
would continue to boycot the Tour. And all those measures were not against
the will of the French people. On the contrary. Coppi was even more popular
in France than in Italy. Merckx was venerated by the French public. Greg
Lemond was also very well-liked and the French even acclaimed him loudly
when he had beaten a Frenchman on the very last day. It's true that
Armstrong has never been very popular, but this had undoubtedly much to do
with the way he presented himself. Anyway, last month the French public
cheered him more than before. Detractors might say that is was because they
were glad to get ride of him, but they cheered him all the same. The Tour
de France is unique, the most beautiful sports event in the world, thanks
to the riders in the first place, but also thanks to the French public.

Benjo

benjo maso said:

I have read the last few days all kind of accusations to the French.
They are the worst chauvinists of the world, they hate foreigners in
general and Americans in particular, they can't stand not winning
their own Tour, are looking for revenge, etc.. But if this is all
true, why has none of those narrow-minded chauvinists, intent on
revenge, tried to prevent Armstrong winning? Why such a complicated
conspiracy, if it would be so easy to make him fall, and so easy to
conceal it was on purpose, especially in the last kilometers of the
clims. But no Frenchman ever tried to to such a thing in the Tour,
not only in the last seven years, but never.

Unless you count the early years of the Tour when all sorts of things did go
on; AIUI that was not nationalism but people 'supporting' their personal
favourite, though.

I think you need to make a distinction between the actions of the French
public, especially the ones who are willing to take a bit of time to see the
racing, who seem to be generally interested in seeing a good spectacle and
confine any negative actions to shouting and holding up banners, and the
journalists who will write whatever they think will sell papers. Chauvinism,
nationalism, and to some extent straight racism, do sell papers, whether
that's in France talking about a bike race, the UK talking about Islam, or
the US talking about where they want to get their oil supply.

Peter

Steven Bornfeld said:

Thanks Benjo.
When I first made it to France, I was a bit ashamed of what I had been
led to expect of the French, considering what I had been led to expect.

Steve

Based on what I've read and heard about this Lance business, I am
convinced that it is nothing more than sour French grapes. A lot of the
stereotypes people have of the French are, in fact, true. I spent a
week in Paris, and I was deliberately shortchanged on numerous
occasions in hotels and restaurants, and sniggered at by waiters when I
attempted to order a meal in French. I was also confronted by the fact
that no one in the train stations could speak a word of English when I
attempted to purchase tickets or ask directions.
I was practically wrestled to the floor by security in the Galleries
Lafayette department store when the security tag on an expensive item
that I had purchased set off the alarm. The fact that I had a sales
receipt and that they had gift-wrapped the package for me did not seem
to convince them that the stupid sales clerk had forgotten to remove
the security tag and maybe I wasn't shoplifting. To say they were rude
to me would be an understatement.
Yeah, the French hate Americans. Funny, tho, with all the great French
cuisine, the most crowded restaurant that I saw was the McDonald's on
the Champs Elysees.
Yes, the city of Paris is beautiful. Too bad French live there.

I guess you are right; however, it's not a matter of people, I say, it's
the "establishment" (media, organization, politicians) that believe they
could make-and-destroy an "hero". the same way they made Pantani the
unchallenged climber in the cycling history, and then the worst cheater
in the world of sports. I really do not manage to understand the reason
why, when speaking about cycling, newspapers and tv they seem to enjoy
hitting so hard our unshakable love toward this sport (really popular
but not fully "understood"😉. I really do not understand, unless they
have st to get from doing that, taking the advantage from wider audience
lack of knowledge (so many people watch only TdF, or Giro here in Italy,
so many say that only "performance" sports are affected by cheating:
definitely, they do not know so much about professional sport!)

anyway, when did italian public seriously try to damage a rider, either
foreign or not? Roche vs Visentini? I guess never, I hope never in any
region of the world! It's very dangerous to speak about blowing, hitting
riders, so let us wish well.

a.

Guys,

This was like watching Casablanca. And who are the nazi this time?

Vive la France!!!

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have read the last few days all kind of accusations to the French. They
are the worst chauvinists of the world, they hate foreigners in general and
Americans in particular, they can't stand not winning their own Tour, are
looking for revenge, etc.. But if this is all true, why has none of those
narrow-minded chauvinists, intent on revenge, tried to prevent Armstrong
winning? Why such a complicated conspiracy, if it would be so easy to make
him fall, and so easy to conceal it was on purpose, especially in the last
kilometers of the clims. But no Frenchman ever tried to to such a thing in
the Tour, not only in the last seven years, but never. The only possible
exception is the blow Merckx recieved in the climb to Puy-de-Dôme in 1975,
but it has never become clear if it was on purpose or not. While the
Italian public tried more than once to obstruct foreign riders sometimes in
a very dangerous way, in France it never happened. In the mountains foreign
riders are even pushed if they are in difficulty. What's more, the
direction has always done everything to convince the best foreign riders to
participate to the Tour, even at the expense of the French champions. Henri
Desgrange paid a lot of money to Binda to bring him to France. In 1948
Goddet and Lévitan even changed the rules, to make it possible for Coppi
and Bartali to come to France, although they knew very well that they were
much stronger than the best French riders. The direction twice decided to
allow commercial teams to ride the Tour instead of national teams, because
Van Looy in 1962 and Merckx in 1969 had made it clear that otherwise they
would continue to boycot the Tour. And all those measures were not against
the will of the French people. On the contrary. Coppi was even more popular
in France than in Italy. Merckx was venerated by the French public. Greg
Lemond was also very well-liked and the French even acclaimed him loudly
when he had beaten a Frenchman on the very last day. It's true that
Armstrong has never been very popular, but this had undoubtedly much to do
with the way he presented himself. Anyway, last month the French public
cheered him more than before. Detractors might say that is was because they
were glad to get ride of him, but they cheered him all the same. The Tour
de France is unique, the most beautiful sports event in the world, thanks
to the riders in the first place, but also thanks to the French public.

Benjo

"Alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I guess you are right; however, it's not a matter of people, I say, it's
the "establishment" (media, organization, politicians) that believe they
could make-and-destroy an "hero". the same way they made Pantani the
unchallenged climber in the cycling history, and then the worst cheater
in the world of sports. I really do not manage to understand the reason
why, when speaking about cycling, newspapers and tv they seem to enjoy
hitting so hard our unshakable love toward this sport (really popular
but not fully "understood"😉. I really do not understand, unless they
have st to get from doing that, taking the advantage from wider audience
lack of knowledge (so many people watch only TdF, or Giro here in Italy,
so many say that only "performance" sports are affected by cheating:
definitely, they do not know so much about professional sport!)

anyway, when did italian public seriously try to damage a rider, either
foreign or not? Roche vs Visentini? I guess never, I hope never in any
region of the world! It's very dangerous to speak about blowing, hitting
riders, so let us wish well.

The worst example I ever seen on TV was when some hooligans were throwing
bottles just before Hinault's bike at the last TT in 1985.

Benjo

"alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Guys,

This was like watching Casablanca. And who are the nazi this time?

Vive la France!!!

Is this the beginning of a beautiful friendship?

Benjo

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso said:

I have read the last few days all kind of accusations to the French.
They are the worst chauvinists of the world, they hate foreigners in
general and Americans in particular, they can't stand not winning
their own Tour, are looking for revenge, etc.. But if this is all
true, why has none of those narrow-minded chauvinists, intent on
revenge, tried to prevent Armstrong winning? Why such a complicated
conspiracy, if it would be so easy to make him fall, and so easy to
conceal it was on purpose, especially in the last kilometers of the
clims. But no Frenchman ever tried to to such a thing in the Tour,
not only in the last seven years, but never.

Unless you count the early years of the Tour when all sorts of things did
go on; AIUI that was not nationalism but people 'supporting' their
personal favourite, though.

I think you need to make a distinction between the actions of the French
public, especially the ones who are willing to take a bit of time to see
the racing, who seem to be generally interested in seeing a good spectacle
and confine any negative actions to shouting and holding up banners, and
the journalists who will write whatever they think will sell papers.
Chauvinism, nationalism, and to some extent straight racism, do sell
papers, whether that's in France talking about a bike race, the UK talking
about Islam, or the US talking about where they want to get their oil
supply.

Riders saw journalists as buddies and confidants until the introduction of
doping laws in1966. From that year on riders began to mistrust
journalists.From 1998 on they cosidered them as potential enemies - and vice
versa. One of the regrettable consequences of the disastrous anti-doping
policy.

Benjo

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:31:45 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I have read the last few days all kind of accusations to the French. They
are the worst chauvinists of the world, they hate foreigners in general and
Americans in particular, they can't stand not winning their own Tour, are
looking for revenge, etc..

Thanks also, benjo, you're right to say it's been exaggerated and
reactionary. It's always good to have a voice of reason to cool things off.

-jet

Quoted message said:

Based on what I've read and heard about this Lance business, I am
convinced that it is nothing more than sour French grapes.

I doubt that very much. I've been to France 7 times, and found nearly all
native French to be out there cheering Lance on, especially after the first
couple of victories. The French Press is an entirely different matter, and
simply does not reflect the feelings of the people.

Quoted message said:

A lot of the stereotypes people have of the French are, in fact, true. I
spent a
week in Paris, and I was deliberately shortchanged on numerous
occasions in hotels and restaurants, and sniggered at by waiters when I
attempted to order a meal in French.

I was never once short-changed in Paris, nor anywhere else in France. The
only similar experience I can personally relate to was when I arranged for a
shuttle from CDG into Paris, and very specifically booked a standard
(multi-party) rather than private shuttle. But the guy charged me for a
private shuttle, and conveniently didn't have a working credit-card machine
(so I couldn't later dispute the charge). But that's not unique to Paris.

Quoted message said:

I was also confronted by the fact
that no one in the train stations could speak a word of English when I
attempted to purchase tickets or ask directions.

Very different from my own experiences. If you go to the "Acceuil" booth
(more-or-less "Information"😉, that's true. Go straight to the manned ticket
counters and you should have little trouble. But please, don't act as if
they *should* speak English; rather, act appreciative that they do and can
help you out. And realize that, when they respond they speak "a little"
English, the reality is that they usually speak it very well. Tell them so,
and things go very pleasantly.

Quoted message said:

I was practically wrestled to the floor by security in the Galleries
Lafayette department store when the security tag on an expensive item
that I had purchased set off the alarm. The fact that I had a sales
receipt and that they had gift-wrapped the package for me did not seem
to convince them that the stupid sales clerk had forgotten to remove
the security tag and maybe I wasn't shoplifting. To say they were rude
to me would be an understatement.

Doesn't sound fun. But my guess is that you were treated little differently
from someone French. Things *are* different from here in the US, no
question. But if you want everything to be the same as in the US, why
travel?

Quoted message said:

Yeah, the French hate Americans. Funny, tho, with all the great French
cuisine, the most crowded restaurant that I saw was the McDonald's on
the Champs Elysees.

Probably because it's familiar to many tourists, and they're somewhat
intimidated by the idea of working through language issues and trying to
figure out what something on a menu is. Many never learn that a great many
menus have their offerings listed in both French & English. You just have to
look.

Quoted message said:

Yes, the city of Paris is beautiful. Too bad French live there.

That's like saying New York is a great place, if not for all the rude New
Yorkers. People are different in different places. In Paris (as well,
probably, as New York, although I've never been there) life is quite a bit
more rushed than elsewhere; there's not a whole lot of time to stop & smell
the roses. This might be taken as rudeness, but I've found that if I act
nicely (as opposed to acting annoyed that things aren't done in the way I'm
used to), I've been treated very nicely in return.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Quoted message said:

The worst example I ever seen on TV was when some hooligans were throwing
bottles just before Hinault's bike at the last TT in 1985.

I'm happy I do not remember such a disgusting scene; obviously, I was a
16 years old guy who believed in what they say: "viva Moser, abbasso
Hinault", les chauvins!

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news: [email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Based on what I've read and heard about this Lance business, I am
convinced that it is nothing more than sour French grapes.

Congratulations Mike.
We all know where the mkrueger message comes from (the usual stereotipe).

I visited the US twice and I have a great remembering of 2 weeks in Denver.
Different ? of course it was !
As you said : if you want everything to be the same, why to travel?

Quoted message said:

I doubt that very much. I've been to France 7 times, and found nearly all
native French to be out there cheering Lance on, especially after the
first couple of victories. The French Press is an entirely different
matter, and simply does not reflect the feelings of the people.

Quoted message said:

A lot of the stereotypes people have of the French are, in fact, true. I
spent a
week in Paris, and I was deliberately shortchanged on numerous
occasions in hotels and restaurants, and sniggered at by waiters when I
attempted to order a meal in French.

I was never once short-changed in Paris, nor anywhere else in France. The
only similar experience I can personally relate to was when I arranged for
a shuttle from CDG into Paris, and very specifically booked a standard
(multi-party) rather than private shuttle. But the guy charged me for a
private shuttle, and conveniently didn't have a working credit-card
machine (so I couldn't later dispute the charge). But that's not unique to
Paris.

Quoted message said:

I was also confronted by the fact
that no one in the train stations could speak a word of English when I
attempted to purchase tickets or ask directions.

Very different from my own experiences. If you go to the "Acceuil" booth
(more-or-less "Information"😉, that's true. Go straight to the manned
ticket counters and you should have little trouble. But please, don't act
as if they *should* speak English; rather, act appreciative that they do
and can help you out. And realize that, when they respond they speak "a
little" English, the reality is that they usually speak it very well. Tell
them so, and things go very pleasantly.

Quoted message said:

I was practically wrestled to the floor by security in the Galleries
Lafayette department store when the security tag on an expensive item
that I had purchased set off the alarm. The fact that I had a sales
receipt and that they had gift-wrapped the package for me did not seem
to convince them that the stupid sales clerk had forgotten to remove
the security tag and maybe I wasn't shoplifting. To say they were rude
to me would be an understatement.

Doesn't sound fun. But my guess is that you were treated little
differently from someone French. Things *are* different from here in the
US, no question. But if you want everything to be the same as in the US,
why travel?

Quoted message said:

Yeah, the French hate Americans. Funny, tho, with all the great French
cuisine, the most crowded restaurant that I saw was the McDonald's on
the Champs Elysees.

Probably because it's familiar to many tourists, and they're somewhat
intimidated by the idea of working through language issues and trying to
figure out what something on a menu is. Many never learn that a great many
menus have their offerings listed in both French & English. You just have
to look.

Quoted message said:

Yes, the city of Paris is beautiful. Too bad French live there.

That's like saying New York is a great place, if not for all the rude New
Yorkers. People are different in different places. In Paris (as well,
probably, as New York, although I've never been there) life is quite a bit
more rushed than elsewhere; there's not a whole lot of time to stop &
smell the roses. This might be taken as rudeness, but I've found that if I
act nicely (as opposed to acting annoyed that things aren't done in the
way I'm used to), I've been treated very nicely in return.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Steven Bornfeld said:

Thanks Benjo.
When I first made it to France, I was a bit ashamed of what I had
been led to expect of the French, considering what I had been led to
expect.

D'Oh! I meant to say, "I was a bit ashamed of what I'd been led to
expect of the French, considering how well I was in fact treated".

Steve

Quoted message said:

Steve

Quoted message said:

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"nospam" to reply\par
}

Quoted message said:

Steven Bornfeld wrote:

Based on what I've read and heard about this Lance business, I am
convinced that it is nothing more than sour French grapes. A lot of the
stereotypes people have of the French are, in fact, true. I spent a
week in Paris, and I was deliberately shortchanged on numerous
occasions in hotels and restaurants, and sniggered at by waiters when I
attempted to order a meal in French. I was also confronted by the fact
that no one in the train stations could speak a word of English when I
attempted to purchase tickets or ask directions.
I was practically wrestled to the floor by security in the Galleries
Lafayette department store when the security tag on an expensive item
that I had purchased set off the alarm. The fact that I had a sales
receipt and that they had gift-wrapped the package for me did not seem
to convince them that the stupid sales clerk had forgotten to remove
the security tag and maybe I wasn't shoplifting. To say they were rude
to me would be an understatement.
Yeah, the French hate Americans. Funny, tho, with all the great French
cuisine, the most crowded restaurant that I saw was the McDonald's on
the Champs Elysees.
Yes, the city of Paris is beautiful. Too bad French live there.

Hmmm. I think I was treated very well indeed; you think you were
treated shabbily.
I wonder what might account for the differences in our experiences?

Steve

Quoted message said:

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"nospam" to reply\par
}

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

(snip)

Quoted message said:

That's like saying New York is a great place, if not for all the rude New
Yorkers.

Shut up.

Thank you,
Steve
proud New Yorker

People are different in different places. In Paris (as well,

Quoted message said:

probably, as New York, although I've never been there) life is quite a bit
more rushed than elsewhere; there's not a whole lot of time to stop & smell
the roses. This might be taken as rudeness, but I've found that if I act
nicely (as opposed to acting annoyed that things aren't done in the way I'm
used to), I've been treated very nicely in return.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

--
{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1033{\fonttbl{\f0\fswiss\fcharset0
Arial;}}
{\*\generator Msftedit 5.41.15.1507;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\f0\fs20 Remove
"nospam" to reply\par
}

Quoted message said:

Steven Bornfeld said:

Thanks Benjo.
When I first made it to France, I was a bit ashamed of what I had been
led to expect of the French, considering what I had been led to expect.

Steve

Based on what I've read and heard about this Lance business, I am
convinced that it is nothing more than sour French grapes. A lot of the
stereotypes people have of the French are, in fact, true. I spent a
week in Paris, and I was deliberately shortchanged on numerous
occasions in hotels and restaurants, and sniggered at by waiters when I
attempted to order a meal in French. I was also confronted by the fact
that no one in the train stations could speak a word of English when I
attempted to purchase tickets or ask directions.
I was practically wrestled to the floor by security in the Galleries
Lafayette department store when the security tag on an expensive item
that I had purchased set off the alarm. The fact that I had a sales
receipt and that they had gift-wrapped the package for me did not seem
to convince them that the stupid sales clerk had forgotten to remove
the security tag and maybe I wasn't shoplifting. To say they were rude
to me would be an understatement.
Yeah, the French hate Americans. Funny, tho, with all the great French
cuisine, the most crowded restaurant that I saw was the McDonald's on
the Champs Elysees.
Yes, the city of Paris is beautiful. Too bad French live there.

Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience in Paris. I have been to
France a couple times and was treated well by the French people
everywhere we went.

I do not speak French. My companion does - fluently. We were at one
restaurant where the waiter and my co-star were talking. The waiter
then asked "Does he speak French?" "No, he doesn't" The waiter then
replied, "Then we'll do this in English." He switched languages, sat
down and explained everything.

On one trip I had to get from the airport to the train station, buy my
ticket, get meals and head to Cahors on my own. No problem with anyone.
Courteous and friendly at every interaction.

We even got to drive the route of the 2004 team time trial from
Joinville to St. Dizier about a month before the Tour. I was lucky
enough to get a photo of the Bianchi team as they rode past the start
line of the stage.

So I'm a fan of the French. They have been friendly and good to me.
Can't say I always agree with what their (or our) government does and
says but on a person to person level, they are just folks.

Tom

Not a very balanced account. Chauvinism excites a response in kind.
L'Epuipe chauvinistically chose to name a single athlete. It
could have revealed the names of all the riders, released all the
results of all the tests. L'Equipe in singling out a single rider
lit the flame. Any account which ignores L'Equipe's role is not
complete, not authoritative.

ray