General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Vitamins C and E May Have Positive Effects on Artery Lining

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
30 July 2003
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Jan
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  1. http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/cdisease/cardiovascular/vitce.html

    Vitamins C and E May Have Positive Effects on Artery Lining

    Various studies have reported on vitamin C as well as other antioxidant
    vitamins and their effects on blood vessels.

    In a study conducted by German researchers and published in the American Heart
    Association's (AHA) journal "Circulation" on July 1, 1996, the researchers
    found that vitamin C helps to absorb some of the damaging chemicals (called
    free radicals) in cigarette smoke that cause damage to the arterial wall.

    The researchers compared blood flow in the arms of 10 healthy male non-smokers
    and 10 male chronic smokers. They found that the blood vessels in chronic
    smokers were more constricted. When a chemical was added to their blood to
    relax and widen the vessels, the response was limited. However, when vitamin C
    was injected into the same artery, it greatly improved the dilation effect.

    The scientists suggest that vitamin C helps improve the ability of the thin
    layer of cells in the artery called the endothelium to function properly (i.e.,
    either narrow or widen). They further note that vitamin C may protect against
    biochemical changes in LDL cholesterol (the "bad cholesterol) that cause it to
    be deposited in artery walls (a process called atherosclerosis).

    In two other studies, reported at the annual AHA scientific sessions in New
    Orleans on November 12, 1996, researchers studied the effects of vitamins C and
    E on arteries. The first study, led by Dr. Henry Ting of Brigham and Women's
    Hospital in Boston, measured blood flow in 12 people with normal cholesterol
    (averaging 180 mg/dl) and 12 people with high cholesterol (averaging 280
    mg/dl). The researchers took blood-flow measurements before and after injecting
    vitamin C into the artery in the forearm. They found that vitamin C improved
    the blood flow and widened blood vessels in the people with high cholesterol
    but had no effect on the people with normal cholesterol levels.

    In another study led by Dr. Gary Plotnick at the University of Maryland Medical
    center in Baltimore, the researchers gave 20 adults with normal cholesterol
    levels (between 133 and 200 mg/dl) a 900 calorie meal that was at least 50%
    saturated fat. They then took timed blood flow measurements using a device that
    temporarily halted blood flow in order to see the extent the artery relaxed and
    widened to allow blood to flow. They found that after 4 hours, the subjects'
    arteries had only widened by 8%, half of what was expected by the researchers.
    However, as they predicted, when the subjects took vitamins E and C with their
    meals, the blood vessels widened by 18% after the four hour period.

    The scientists believe that these antioxidant vitamins may help treat the
    effects of a high fat diet. However, the reader should note that these
    researchers have not conclusively determined the benefits of antioxidant
    vitamins and the AHA does not recommend the use of antioxidant vitamin
    supplements until more information is known.

  2. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Vitamins C and E May Have Positive Effects on Artery Lining
    From: [email hidden] (Jan)
    Date: 7/30/2003 7:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time

    Quoted message said:

    some of the damaging chemicals (called
    free radicals) in cigarette smoke that cause damage to the arterial


    wall.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    would be smarter for the dumb smokers to just stop,,,don't ya think??

    It would be smart, but most of them enjoy their habit.

    Quoted message said:

    doesn't mention what (if nothing ) it does to prevent lung
    cancer,,which..btw..is a bigger risk to smokers..

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    They then took timed blood flow measurements using a device that
    temporarily halted blood flow in order to see the extent the artery


    relaxed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and

    "temporarily halted blood flow??"...what did they do..have the patients


    on

    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:

    heart lung machine??? there is NO other way to halt blood flow...

    Doesn't show how they measured the diameter of the artery?
    This could be either blood flow, in which case did increased heart rate


    have

    Quoted message said:

    an effect?
    (i.e. the heart rate was increased)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    However, the reader should note that these
    researchers have not conclusively determined the benefits of


    antioxidant

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    vitamins and the AHA does not recommend the use of antioxidant vitamin
    supplements until more information is known.

    ahhhh..Janny didn't read the caveat..

    Yup not through proper trials and never likely to be in high doses.
    (a) The drug companies want something to patent, and since they control


    the

    Quoted message said:

    bias and large trials the people will never know.

    Quoted message said:

    sad that...

    Agreed (see my comment a)
    Let's hope Rath's complaint at the Hague rats out some of the 'rats' in


    high

    Quoted message said:

    places.
    That will probably never happen either due to who controls the money and
    power.

    Come now, Anth! Don't you see the artificial nature of these studies?
    Rath has no better evidence. Only long term prospective studies can
    prove a useful effect of taking antioxidant vitamins in greater than normal
    amounts. Look to those.

    Peter Moran

  3. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Vitamins C and E May Have Positive Effects on Artery Lining
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 7/30/2003 12:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    >Subject: Vitamins C and E May Have Positive Effects on Artery Lining
    >From: [email hidden] (Jan)
    >Date: 7/30/2003 7:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time

    >some of the damaging chemicals (called
    >free radicals) in cigarette smoke that cause damage to the arterial


    wall.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >

    would be smarter for the dumb smokers to just stop,,,don't ya think??

    It would be smart, but most of them enjoy their habit.

    Quoted message said:

    doesn't mention what (if nothing ) it does to prevent lung
    cancer,,which..btw..is a bigger risk to smokers..

    Quoted message said:

    >They then took timed blood flow measurements using a device that
    >temporarily halted blood flow in order to see the extent the artery


    relaxed

    Quoted message said:

    >and

    "temporarily halted blood flow??"...what did they do..have the patients


    on

    Quoted message said:

    the

    Quoted message said:

    heart lung machine??? there is NO other way to halt blood flow...

    Doesn't show how they measured the diameter of the artery?
    This could be either blood flow, in which case did increased heart rate


    have

    Quoted message said:

    an effect?
    (i.e. the heart rate was increased)

    Quoted message said:

    >However, the reader should note that these
    >researchers have not conclusively determined the benefits of


    antioxidant

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >vitamins and the AHA does not recommend the use of antioxidant vitamin
    >supplements until more information is known.

    ahhhh..Janny didn't read the caveat..

    Yup not through proper trials and never likely to be in high doses.
    (a) The drug companies want something to patent, and since they control


    the

    Quoted message said:

    bias and large trials the people will never know.

    Quoted message said:

    sad that...

    Agreed (see my comment a)
    Let's hope Rath's complaint at the Hague rats out some of the 'rats' in


    high

    Quoted message said:

    places.
    That will probably never happen either due to who controls the money and
    power.

    Come now, Anth! Don't you see the artificial nature of these studies?

    You forgot:

    *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
    *significant* *credibile* *compelling*

    Quoted message said:

    Rath has no better evidence.

    See how eager Peter M0ran is to accept anything *outside of organized medicine.

    Quoted message said:

    Only long term prospective studies can
    prove a useful effect of taking antioxidant vitamins in greater than normal
    amounts. Look to those.

    Peter Moran

    NOW HEAR THIS!!!

    Anth, you and I will be DEAD before this
    LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG term studies are done!!!

    *IF* ever!!

    Jan

  4. Rath has a lot of science behind his and Pauling's theory, more than enough
    to warrant more studies.
    As for double blind tests - these simply won't happen unless Rath funds them
    or the AMA.
    How could a drug company get a return on a non patentable therapy?
    Anth

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Come now, Anth! Don't you see the artificial nature of these studies?
    Rath has no better evidence. Only long term prospective studies can
    prove a useful effect of taking antioxidant vitamins in greater than


    normal

    Quoted message said:

    amounts. Look to those.

    Peter Moran

  5. Yup
    I'm hoping with my naive heart that the Hague cracks some nuts.
    Anth

    "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    [snip]

  6. Peter Moran said:

    Come now, Anth! Don't you see the artificial nature of these studies?
    Rath has no better evidence. Only long term prospective studies can
    prove a useful effect of taking antioxidant vitamins in greater than normal
    amounts. Look to those.

    And didn't they just report on some of them and the conclusions
    were that excess Vitamin E and C weren't helping at all!

    Tsu

    --
    To doubt everything or to believe everything
    are two equally convenient solutions; both
    dispense with the necessity of reflection.
    - Jules Henri Poincaré

  7. Anth said:

    Rath has a lot of science behind his and Pauling's theory, more than enough
    to warrant more studies.
    As for double blind tests - these simply won't happen unless Rath funds them
    or the AMA.
    How could a drug company get a return on a non patentable therapy?

    By making the vitamins in question, of course. Just take a look
    at all the research on ASPIRIN ... out of patent since the turn
    of the last century, and drug companies are still interested in
    it.

    Tsu

    --
    To doubt everything or to believe everything
    are two equally convenient solutions; both
    dispense with the necessity of reflection.
    - Jules Henri Poincaré

  8. Quoted message said:

    Rath has a lot of science behind his and Pauling's theory, more than enough
    to warrant more studies.
    As for double blind tests - these simply won't happen unless Rath funds them
    or the AMA.

    Pauling's theory was so convincing that Pauling destroyed a good bit of his
    research. It simply wouldn't support his premise nor his conclusion. Still,
    if you want to take large doses of Vitamin C or figure out a way to synthesize
    it internally, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you.

    Quoted message said:

    How could a drug company get a return on a non patentable therapy?
    Anth

    Very easily. Look at all the OTC's in your pharmacy. Patents don't last for
    ever, either. Drug companies make a good bit of money selling suppliments,
    most of which are unpatentable or aren't patented.

  9. They are already making the vitamins they are cheap.
    If vitamin c/lysine was proven to prevent heart disease then think of all
    those expensive heart disease drugs that would be ditched.
    Vitamins+Drugs vs Vitamins
    Anth

    "Tsu Dho Nimh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Anth said:

    Rath has a lot of science behind his and Pauling's theory, more than


    enough

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to warrant more studies.
    As for double blind tests - these simply won't happen unless Rath funds


    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    or the AMA.
    How could a drug company get a return on a non patentable therapy?

    By making the vitamins in question, of course. Just take a look
    at all the research on ASPIRIN ... out of patent since the turn
    of the last century, and drug companies are still interested in
    it.

    Tsu

    --
    To doubt everything or to believe everything
    are two equally convenient solutions; both
    dispense with the necessity of reflection.
    - Jules Henri Poincaré

  10. Quoted message said:

    They are already making the vitamins they are cheap.

    How about Aspirin?

    Quoted message said:

    If vitamin c/lysine was proven to prevent heart disease then think of all
    those expensive heart disease drugs that would be ditched.
    Vitamins+Drugs vs Vitamins

    How about an Aspirin a day? Saves a lot of surgical, radiological, & post
    recovery expenses, eh Anth? Who holds the patent on the single most
    recommended drug? Nobody, the patent on Aspirin expired decades ago.

    Quoted message said:

    Anth

    "Tsu Dho Nimh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Anth said:

    Rath has a lot of science behind his and Pauling's theory, more than


    enough

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to warrant more studies.
    As for double blind tests - these simply won't happen unless Rath funds


    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    or the AMA.
    How could a drug company get a return on a non patentable therapy?

    By making the vitamins in question, of course. Just take a look
    at all the research on ASPIRIN ... out of patent since the turn
    of the last century, and drug companies are still interested in
    it.

  11. Anth said:

    They are already making the vitamins they are cheap.
    If vitamin c/lysine was proven to prevent heart disease then think of all
    those expensive heart disease drugs that would be ditched.

    And the health insurance companies would be GLAD.

    Quoted message said:

    Vitamins+Drugs vs Vitamins

    Tsu

    --
    To doubt everything or to believe everything
    are two equally convenient solutions; both
    dispense with the necessity of reflection.
    - Jules Henri Poincaré

  12. Answer this llsa did they or did they not form a international cartel to fix
    vitamin prices?
    Anth

    "Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    They are already making the vitamins they are cheap.

    How about Aspirin?

    Quoted message said:

    If vitamin c/lysine was proven to prevent heart disease then think of all
    those expensive heart disease drugs that would be ditched.
    Vitamins+Drugs vs Vitamins

    How about an Aspirin a day? Saves a lot of surgical, radiological, & post
    recovery expenses, eh Anth? Who holds the patent on the single most
    recommended drug? Nobody, the patent on Aspirin expired decades ago.

  13. --

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Answer this llsa did they or did they not form a international cartel to


    fix

    Quoted message said:

    vitamin prices?
    Anth

    Yes, they did. And until the Sherman Act, price fixing was considered just
    good business. Legal international cartels exist as well, OPEC, for example.
    But a cartel is not a conspiracy, and price-fixing of vitamin stocks has
    nothing to do with suppressing alternative medicine or promoting disease to
    increase sales of drugs. You've implied that a conspiracy exists to prevent
    research into the efficacy of laetrile for cancer treatment. So where is it?
    Who is conspiring, and what leverage do they have to control the research
    community? In what way is the busted vitamin trust evidence that a grand
    conspiracy of pharmaceutical companies exists? Don't believe everything you
    read in books like Racketeering in Medicine.

    --Rich

  14. Quoted message said:

    Answer this llsa did they or did they not form a international cartel to fix
    vitamin prices?
    Anth

    They were fixing prices, which is far afield from withholding a cancer cure, as
    you allege with Laetrile. They were caught, largely due to European gov'ts
    FINALLY enacting anti-trust legislation. Read the full article on the US Dept
    of Justice website and find out HOW they were able to keep their arrangement
    going, it was the complicity of European gov'ts or their benign neglect.

    Was anyone, anywhere kept out of the vitamin business by this? Did anyone do
    without vitamins? Did this reduce vitamin content of your food?

    If you want to really show those SOB's how you feel, DON'T BUY VITAMINS, GET
    THEM FROM YOUR FOOD!!!!!!

    Quoted message said:


    "Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    They are already making the vitamins they are cheap.

    How about Aspirin?

    Quoted message said:

    If vitamin c/lysine was proven to prevent heart disease then think of all
    those expensive heart disease drugs that would be ditched.
    Vitamins+Drugs vs Vitamins

    How about an Aspirin a day? Saves a lot of surgical, radiological, & post
    recovery expenses, eh Anth? Who holds the patent on the single most
    recommended drug? Nobody, the patent on Aspirin expired decades ago.

  15. Not a cancer 'cure' a potential palliative.
    And I get good nutrition from my 'Monkey Boy' diet.
    Anth

    "Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Answer this llsa did they or did they not form a international cartel to


    fix

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    vitamin prices?
    Anth

    They were fixing prices, which is far afield from withholding a cancer


    cure, as

    Quoted message said:

    you allege with Laetrile. They were caught, largely due to European


    gov'ts

    Quoted message said:

    FINALLY enacting anti-trust legislation. Read the full article on the US


    Dept

    Quoted message said:

    of Justice website and find out HOW they were able to keep their


    arrangement

    Quoted message said:

    going, it was the complicity of European gov'ts or their benign neglect.

    Was anyone, anywhere kept out of the vitamin business by this? Did anyone


    do

    Quoted message said:

    without vitamins? Did this reduce vitamin content of your food?

    If you want to really show those SOB's how you feel, DON'T BUY VITAMINS,


    GET

    Quoted message said:

    THEM FROM YOUR FOOD!!!!!!

    Quoted message said:


    "Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    >They are already making the vitamins they are cheap.

    How about Aspirin?

    >If vitamin c/lysine was proven to prevent heart disease then think of


    all

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >those expensive heart disease drugs that would be ditched.
    >Vitamins+Drugs vs Vitamins

    How about an Aspirin a day? Saves a lot of surgical, radiological, &


    post

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    recovery expenses, eh Anth? Who holds the patent on the single most
    recommended drug? Nobody, the patent on Aspirin expired decades ago.

  16. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act, so
    they were conspiring to defraud the public of their money.

    They knew they could fix the prices and also knew that if they did get
    caught, the chances were that the government would only tap them on the
    wrists compared to the profits they would make. For them it was the logical
    thing to do at the expense of the people.

    Laetrile was trashed on it's ability to not 'cure' cancer.
    The mouse experiments done at Sloan suggest that it could have been examined
    for palliative/anti metastasis effects.
    Maybe that's why it's used in quackery by alternative biased MD's today? Or
    maybe they are evil and want to defraud people?
    Laetrile is still being explored for anti cancer properties. This time with
    a patent slapped on it.
    Why would they do that on a 'useless' drug?

    Big Pharms can control research because they fund a lot of the big expensive
    trails.

    Racketeering in Medicine - thanks for the book tip I'll look into that 🙂
    Anth

    "Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    --

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Answer this llsa did they or did they not form a international cartel to


    fix

    Quoted message said:

    vitamin prices?
    Anth

    Yes, they did. And until the Sherman Act, price fixing was considered just
    good business. Legal international cartels exist as well, OPEC, for


    example.

    Quoted message said:

    But a cartel is not a conspiracy, and price-fixing of vitamin stocks has
    nothing to do with suppressing alternative medicine or promoting disease


    to

    Quoted message said:

    increase sales of drugs. You've implied that a conspiracy exists to


    prevent

    Quoted message said:

    research into the efficacy of laetrile for cancer treatment. So where is


    it?

    Quoted message said:

    Who is conspiring, and what leverage do they have to control the research
    community? In what way is the busted vitamin trust evidence that a grand
    conspiracy of pharmaceutical companies exists? Don't believe everything


    you

    Quoted message said:

    read in books like Racketeering in Medicine.

    --Rich

  17. Quoted message said:

    An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act, so
    they were conspiring to defraud the public of their money.

    The were in collusion, fixing prices for a non-essential product, one used
    primarily to soothe the neuroses of the somatically hypervigilant. It was
    wrong, they got prosecuted, and they have paid their fines.

    Quoted message said:

    They knew they could fix the prices and also knew that if they did get
    caught, the chances were that the government would only tap them on the
    wrists compared to the profits they would make. For them it was the logical
    thing to do at the expense of the people.

    Go ahead and complain to OPEC while you are at it. They have taken more money
    from consumers than the "vitamin cartel" ever could dream of. Consider all the
    products and services which depend on petroleum, Anth. Consider the cost of
    heating oil, petrol, et al. Consider if you think OPEC is involved in GENOCIDE
    when you accuse the "vitamin cartel" of such crimes against humanity.

    Quoted message said:

    Laetrile was trashed on it's ability to not 'cure' cancer.

    Yes, how silly of mainstream medicine! They didn't approve of it because it
    didn't help humans and it actually poisoned them with cyanide.

    Quoted message said:

    The mouse experiments done at Sloan suggest that it could have been examined
    for palliative/anti metastasis effects.

    See above.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe that's why it's used in quackery by alternative biased MD's today? Or
    maybe they are evil and want to defraud people?
    Laetrile is still being explored for anti cancer properties. This time with
    a patent slapped on it.
    Why would they do that on a 'useless' drug?

    You've already been shown the studies.

    Quoted message said:


    Big Pharms can control research because they fund a lot of the big expensive
    trails.

    In the USA there is a surplus of money available to test alt-methods. Very few
    apply for the money because very few believe in their methods enough to subject
    them to scrutiny. Look at all the alt-methods tested by NCCAOM (sp?) and look
    at how few successes.

    Quoted message said:


    Racketeering in Medicine - thanks for the book tip I'll look into that 🙂
    Anth

    I'm sure you sleep with it under your pillow.

    Quoted message said:

    "Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    --

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Answer this llsa did they or did they not form a international cartel to


    fix

    Quoted message said:

    vitamin prices?
    Anth

  18. Quoted message said:

    Not a cancer 'cure' a potential palliative.
    And I get good nutrition from my 'Monkey Boy' diet.
    Anth

    Good!

    As I said before:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you want to really show those SOB's how you feel, DON'T BUY VITAMINS,


    GET

    Quoted message said:

    THEM FROM YOUR FOOD!!!!!!

  19. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Vitamins C and E May Have Positive Effects on Artery Lining
    From: "Anth" [email hidden]
    Date: 8/1/2003 12:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act, so
    they were conspiring to defraud the public of their money.

    They knew they could fix the prices and also knew that if they did get
    caught, the chances were that the government would only tap them on the
    wrists compared to the profits they would make. For them it was the logical
    thing to do at the expense of the people.

    Laetrile was trashed on it's ability to not 'cure' cancer.
    The mouse experiments done at Sloan suggest that it could have been examined
    for palliative/anti metastasis effects.
    Maybe that's why it's used in quackery by alternative biased MD's today? Or
    maybe they are evil and want to defraud people?
    Laetrile is still being explored for anti cancer properties. This time with
    a patent slapped on it.
    Why would they do that on a 'useless' drug?

    Big Pharms can control research because they fund a lot of the big expensive
    trails.

    Racketeering in Medicine - thanks for the book tip I'll look into that 🙂
    Anth

    Please do, it is a very good book.

    I doubt that Rich has read it, he is most likely saying that because I have
    posted it several times.

    http://www.baar.com/racket.htm

    http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/education/whysupplement/racketeer.html

    Jan

    Quoted message said:

    Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    --

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Answer this llsa did they or did they not form a international cartel to


    fix

    Quoted message said:

    vitamin prices?
    Anth

    Yes, they did. And until the Sherman Act, price fixing was considered just
    good business. Legal international cartels exist as well, OPEC, for


    example.

    Quoted message said:

    But a cartel is not a conspiracy, and price-fixing of vitamin stocks has
    nothing to do with suppressing alternative medicine or promoting disease


    to

    Quoted message said:

    increase sales of drugs. You've implied that a conspiracy exists to


    prevent

    Quoted message said:

    research into the efficacy of laetrile for cancer treatment. So where is


    it?

    Quoted message said:

    Who is conspiring, and what leverage do they have to control the research
    community? In what way is the busted vitamin trust evidence that a grand
    conspiracy of pharmaceutical companies exists? Don't believe everything


    you

    Quoted message said:

    read in books like Racketeering in Medicine.

    --Rich

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