Vision MISSED it by a SEAT!

They did offer an M5 seat on several models toward the end there.

"EZ Biker :-)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%DI%b.416997$xy6.2353831@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

In reflecting back on Visions duel 26 wheel Saber, I have to wonder if

only

Quoted message said:

they had offered a more streamlined (Light weight) seat like an M5 seat; would their bike have
been more successful and as popular as some of the duel 26 wheel bikes of today? Seems like they
had a great concept, but missed it by staying with the lounge / beach chair type of seat. Mind
you, I'm not knocking the lounge chair; but if the Saber was meant to be more

of

Quoted message said:

a performance type of bike, wouldn't a more performance shaped seat made better sense? EZ Biker
:-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

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I think they "MISSED" by a tandem frame....

(just a guess...)

jd

"EZ Biker :-)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%DI%b.416997$xy6.2353831@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

In reflecting back on Visions duel 26 wheel Saber, I have to wonder if

only

Quoted message said:

they had offered a more streamlined (Light weight) seat like an M5 seat; would their bike have
been more successful and as popular as some of the duel 26 wheel bikes of today? Seems like they
had a great concept, but missed it by staying with the lounge / beach chair type of seat. Mind
you, I'm not knocking the lounge chair; but if the Saber was meant to be more

of

Quoted message said:

a performance type of bike, wouldn't a more performance shaped seat made better sense? EZ Biker
:-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

In article <[email hidden]>, Jack Davis says...

Quoted message said:

I think they "MISSED" by a tandem frame....

Interesting point.

Why don't one of you lawyers go online and look up whether Vision (ATP) was ever sued by anybody?
(Isn't there a legal database for that sort of thing?) It probably wasn't a factor, but it would be
interesting to know whether any liability figured in their demise.

Steve Christensen

It doesn't take a lawsuit to put a small company out of business, only the loss of their liability
insurance.

"Steve Christensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Jack Davis says...

Quoted message said:

I think they "MISSED" by a tandem frame....

Interesting point.

Why don't one of you lawyers go online and look up whether Vision (ATP)

was ever

Quoted message said:

sued by anybody? (Isn't there a legal database for that sort of thing?)

It

Quoted message said:

probably wasn't a factor, but it would be interesting to know whether any liability figured in
their demise.

Steve Christensen

I might have it wrong, but I believe the real reason that Vision is out of business is the same
reason that BikeE, Haluzak, and numerous others also are out of business. The recumbent market is
too small to support a wide base of manufacturers and the market is finicky. Everyone wants to "jump
on and ride" the latest sharp looking bike out there. Vision lost out, not because of there product,
such as a seat, but because Bachetta came along, something new, and did a great job of marketing.
Bachetta took there bikes out on the road where people could test ride them, Vision maintained
status quo. I would venture to say that quite a number of people who purchased Bachettas, never test
road the bike they bought, and for sure never test road a Vision, particularly a Saber.

As for the seat issue, all I can say is if you have ever done a Century I doubt seriously that you
would pick a hard shell seat over a mesh seat. And as for the comments about getting more power out
of a hard shell seat than a mesh seat, give me a break!!!!

For me the choice is easy, I happen to ride a Vision Sabre with the mesh seat. The seat is
comfortable, the handle bars are infinitely adjustable, meaning more comfort which is hard to say
for any of the new breed of high wheels, and the bike is plenty fast.

Without a doubt, give it a year or maybe less, but unless the current recumbent manufacturers
have deep pockets, meaning they are surviving off other business lines, one or more will go out
of business.

All above is my opinion and I sure we will get a lot of threads that disagree. "EZ Biker :-)"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%DI%b.416997$xy6.2353831@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

In reflecting back on Visions duel 26 wheel Saber, I have to wonder if

only

Quoted message said:

they had offered a more streamlined (Light weight) seat like an M5 seat; would their bike have
been more successful and as popular as some of the duel 26 wheel bikes of today? Seems like they
had a great concept, but missed it by staying with the lounge / beach chair type of seat. Mind
you, I'm not knocking the lounge chair; but if the Saber was meant to be more

of

Quoted message said:

a performance type of bike, wouldn't a more performance shaped seat made better sense? EZ Biker
:-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

Warren Kinsey said:

Bachetta took there bikes out on the road where people could test ride them,

They did? I must have missed them when they came to town. The nearest Bacchetta dealer to me
(central North Carolina) is like 250 miles away.

Quoted message said:

I would venture to say that quite a number of people who purchased Bachettas, never test road the
bike they bought

Since Bacchettas are sold only through bike shops and not via mail order, I would think that many of
their buyers did get a test ride. I suppose some number of folks ordered through their non-Bacchetta-
stocking LBS sight unseen. It would be interesting for Bacchetta to reveal the ratio of bikes sold
through stocking dealers vs. non-stocking dealers.

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"Warren Kinsey" skrev...

Quoted message said:

As for the seat issue, all I can say is if you have ever done a Century I doubt seriously that you
would pick a hard shell seat over a mesh seat. And as for the comments about getting more power
out of a hard shell seat than a mesh seat, give me a break!!!!

Okay, Warren. Take five. ;-) I have done lots of comfortable centuries on my hardshell seat. It fits
like a glove and the filterfoam does a good job of taking the edge out of bumps but is not so soft
that I'm bouncing around. Plus its opencell and doesn't retain moisture. Had some furniture foam on
once and it was like sitting on a wet sponge. But I digress. If you are most comfortable on a mesh
seat thats fine by me. Ride what you like. :-)

Regards Mikael

Cheers Mikael

"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Warren Kinsey" skrev...

Quoted message said:

As for the seat issue, all I can say is if you have ever done a Century I doubt seriously that
you would pick a hard shell seat over a mesh seat. And as for the comments about getting more
power out of a hard shell seat than a mesh seat, give me a break!!!!

Okay, Warren. Take five. ;-) I have done lots of comfortable centuries on my hardshell seat. It
fits like a glove and the filterfoam does a good job of taking the edge out of bumps but is not so
soft that I'm bouncing around. Plus its opencell and doesn't retain moisture. Had some furniture
foam on once and it was like sitting on a wet sponge. But I digress. If you are most comfortable
on a mesh seat thats fine by me. Ride what you like. :-)

Regards Mikael

Cheers Mikael

I am a business owner, ther is only one reason a business goues under when the owner wants to
continue. LACK OF PROFIT. I think that Vision wanmted to re capture , or capture, more market share
by reducing the selling price of their extremely fine machines. They did this soon after moving into
their new fcility. I am sure thatthis new shop and the move cost them alot of capital, and the
upkeep of the large work shop was not calculated into the overhead cost of doing business. I would
think that they began loosing money long before they were aware of it. A company needs to sell a
product or service to make a profit. The bottom line is very important and without profit you go out
of business, that simple. There are 2 ways to stabalize the bottom line, 1 increase selling price or
2 cut costs. If a product or service is of superior quality then and the cost of doing business is
higher. Charge more for your product or service. Customers who desire a US made cycle will buy at
the higher price, or if your follow up service is best they will pay a higher price to get a better
service. Just my 2 cents worth. Bob Fleer V44uss loving life laid back.

My take on Vision - Total Recumbent Market 10,000? units per year. Vision has 10% market(probably
high or way high?) so let's say they build and sell 1000 units per year (that's 3.8 units per
workday). The typical R40 sells MSRP at $1149 - $250 dealer profit, $400 Vision Profit gets us to a
base material cost of $500 for the bike before income taxes, labor, facility costs, insurance,
distribution to owners or principals, so what's left over on a yearly gross margin of $500,000? Very
little. I have no specific knowledge of the industry, but this probably explains their demise. I
know they had the Wheelchair and wheel business also, but do not see how anyone could make this
their primary source of income. I agree the Tandem failures would have a huge impact on liability
insurance. One settled claim of any significance would wipe out any most small business. Again, my
speculation only on the finance end of the business.

(bob fleer) said:

I am a business owner, ther is only one reason a business goues under when the owner wants to
continue. LACK OF PROFIT.

Not true. Most small businesses go under from a problem with cash flow. The nature of small
businesses is that many can curtail expenses as they 'dwindle' - they may show a technical profit to
the end, In some cases, they even have decent profits. But especially in the case of manufactured
goods where there is significant money and effort tied up in each unit, maintaining the pipeline
takes more cash than their financing can handle. So they shut down.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

(jef) said:

I know they had the Wheelchair and wheel business also, but do not see how anyone could make this
their primary source of income.

Easily - it can be quite lucrative, but they would be competing against established players in a
government reimbursement market. Doubt that THEY could make it their bread and butter.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(bob fleer) said:

I am a business owner, ther is only one reason a business goues under when the owner wants to
continue. LACK OF PROFIT.

Not true. Most small businesses go under from a problem with cash flow. The nature of small
businesses is that many can curtail expenses as they 'dwindle' - they may show a technical profit
to the end, In some cases, they even have decent profits. But especially in the case of
manufactured goods where there is significant money and effort tied up in each unit, maintaining
the pipeline takes more cash than their financing can handle. So they shut down.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

You are right cash flow is very important, but if you do pricy our goods or services then you will
not become solvent. Cash flow can be improved, loans, money from other sources, volume sales and
other discount incentives. But if you are not priced properly to produce a profit every time you
make a sale then you loose more money. Bob Fleer vision r44

(bob fleer) said:

You are right cash flow is very important, but if you do pricy our goods or services then you will
not become solvent. Cash flow can be improved, loans, money from other sources, volume sales and
other discount incentives. But if you are not priced properly to produce a profit every time you
make a sale then you loose more money.

That's rather obvious. But the issue was why most small (and medium) companies fail, and it is from
cash flow more than from lack of profit. The opposite of your comment is also true - you can price
correctly and make money on every item sold, but if the pipeline for delivery of goods requires
heavy outlays of cash before receiving payment, you can run out of money and time before you make
that profit. It is especially true of companies in growth mode, where the pipeline is carrying more
product relative to items on the show room floor. Cash flow took out some relative profitable
restaurant franchises in the 70s and a lot of exercise clubs in the 90s (not including the Ponzi
scheme clubs that could never stop growing or they would collapse).

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

Quoted message said:

Easily - it can be quite lucrative, but they would be competing against established players in a
government reimbursement market. Doubt that THEY could make it their bread and butter.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

My bad - I meant that it would be hard to sustain a business and family on the recumbent business
alone, and that the wheelchair business was the moneymaker. Same as Rans with the airplane business.

Bob, Since you and I are both small business men we know from experience that the cash flow theory
works for a period of time. Then in comes the diminishing return caused by the eventual unaovidable
inevitable inability to pay you expenses due to poor profit margains not covering your expenses.
Your business should be slowing down as mine is picking up. Stop by and see me. Weather is gettin'
better... did a metric Sunday. Gotta go deliver some bikes. MAKE SOME PROFIT

Jude

Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports Inc St. Michaels, MD 1-800-586-6645

bob fleer <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Curtis L. Russell <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(bob fleer) said:

I am a business owner, ther is only one reason a business goues under when the owner wants to
continue. LACK OF PROFIT.

Not true. Most small businesses go under from a problem with cash flow. The nature of small
businesses is that many can curtail expenses as they 'dwindle' - they may show a technical
profit to the end, In some cases, they even have decent profits. But especially in the case of
manufactured goods where there is significant money and effort tied up in each unit, maintaining
the pipeline takes more cash than their financing can handle. So they shut down.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

You are right cash flow is very important, but if you do pricy our goods or services then you will
not become solvent. Cash flow can be improved, loans, money from other sources, volume sales and
other discount incentives. But if you are not priced properly to produce a profit every time you
make a sale then you loose more money. Bob Fleer vision r44