Vicious cycle on our roads

JoeD said:

CYCLISTS in the Dandenong Ranges are being verbally abused and narrowly
missed by aggressive drivers, a leading cyclist claims.

Mooroolbark's Trent Lowe, who rides professionally for Discovery Channel
overseas, said motorists were becoming more aggressive towards cyclists on
the road.

``I've noticed that every time I come home and ride around the Dandenongs,
Marysville and Warburton area, that the roads are getting more and more
busy,'' Lowe said.

The situation is probably not helped by more housing development out there, people having to rely upon cars due to insufficent PT, and the [censored] that Free Press Leaders owners, ie: New Limited, have been pushing in the Herald Sun.

cfsmtb said:

The situation is probably not helped by more housing development out there, people having to rely upon cars due to insufficent PT, and the [censored] that Free Press Leaders owners, ie: New Limited, have been pushing in the Herald Sun.

Its probably also not helped by the fact last time I was out there a couple of weeks ago we had a big ride so we were still riding up around there about 10am, we were coming from Olinda to Sassafras and I actully saw a 2 a breast peleton going the other way!! That is ludicrous on those roads!! If I was a car driver I would be p*ssed of as well.

There was 4 of us and as usual when I ride up there, stick to the left, had a great ride and cars passing without a problem.

JoeD said:

http://www.freepressleader.com.au/article/2006/10/10/5890_fpv_news.html

Vicious cycle on our roads
Emily Andersen

10Oct06

Trent Lowe is back home preparing for the Herald Sun Tour.

CYCLISTS in the Dandenong Ranges are being verbally abused and narrowly
missed by aggressive drivers, a leading cyclist claims.

Mooroolbark's Trent Lowe, who rides professionally for Discovery Channel
overseas, said motorists were becoming more aggressive towards cyclists on
the road.
``I've noticed that every time I come home and ride around the Dandenongs,
Marysville and Warburton area, that the roads are getting more and more
busy,'' Lowe said.
``Drivers here, in comparison to those in Europe, are fairly aggressive.
``It's like they've got no time when they're trying to get past you.
``I'd like to see people slow down.''
Lowe was home last week to prepare for the Herald Sun Tour and was taken
aback by the treatment he received on the road. ``I pulled up at the
traffic lights in Mooroolbark and a car pulled up behind me and the
passenger started abusing me, saying `why don't you take up the whole
road'.'' He said it was not uncommon for cars, travelling at speeds of up
to 100km/h, to miss him by inches.
``Cars will be coming in the other direction and overtake another car at
100km/h,'' Lowe said.
``They come within inches of me and they don't realise how dangerous it
is.''
Lowe needed surgery on a broken collarbone after he was hit by a car three
years ago.
Sen-Sgt Doug Berglund, of Belgrave police, pleaded for tolerance between
motorists and cyclists on the road this summer.
``Motorists should plan when to overtake and give the cyclist reasonable
distance,'' Sen-Sgt Berglund said.
Sgt Alan Fincher of Monbulk police said conflict between cyclists and
motorists in the Dandenong Ranges was not uncommon because of the narrow
and winding roads.
Lowe's comments follow a collision between a car and a Rowville cyclist in
Kallista on Friday, September 29.

Hi,

I find the description "reasonable distance" to be frustrating and not very
useful, since some drivers' idea of reasonable might be only 20 or 30 cm.

It would be more helpful if the law was changed to force a motorised vehicle
passing a cyclist to allow a minimum distance of (say): 50 cm + 10 cm *
(km/hr / 10) , in other words half a metre distance + 10 cm for each 10
km/hr of vehicle speed. This would provide a legal minimum of one metre
clearance on slow suburban streets, and 1.5 metres on a fast highway.

Cheers,

Vince

MikeyOz said:

Its probably also not helped by the fact last time I was out there a couple of weeks ago we had a big ride so we were still riding up around there about 10am, we were coming from Olinda to Sassafras and I actully saw a 2 a breast peleton going the other way!! That is ludicrous on those roads!! If I was a car driver I would be p*ssed of as well.

There was 4 of us and as usual when I ride up there, stick to the left, had a great ride and cars passing without a problem.

Any idea what bunch or club that could possibly be? Find out who they are and have a quiet word - if people want a shared road environment, the responsibility cuts both ways.

MikeyOz said:

Its probably also not helped by the fact last time I was out there a couple of weeks ago we had a big ride so we were still riding up around there about 10am, we were coming from Olinda to Sassafras and I actully saw a 2 a breast peleton going the other way!!

Was this the weekend of the Fruit Loop??? I (shamefully) admit to being part of that group.... That was my first and probably only time I'm going to ride with them... My usual crew and I were hanging around the back calling out cars to the leading riders, who pretty much ignored us and never formed up...

The pack (understandably) copped a heckuvalotta abuse while they were riding like this... but once I got dropped (as I usually do in the hills :P) and I was solo-ing, things were fine and I didn't cop any abuse ....

Snuffy said:

Was this the weekend of the Fruit Loop??? I (shamefully) admit to being part of that group.... That was my first and probably only time I'm going to ride with them... My usual crew and I were hanging around the back calling out cars to the leading riders, who pretty much ignored us and never formed up...

The pack (understandably) copped a heckuvalotta abuse while they were riding like this... but once I got dropped (as I usually do in the hills :P) and I was solo-ing, things were fine and I didn't cop any abuse ....

On my way down from Sassafras on sunday 1/10 and had to deal with a line of Austin Healy sprites coming up. At one pont there was me comming down, and a car the middle of the road comming up as it passed a double line of cyclists also climbing. Did the driver know I was there? couldn't tell.

I assumed it was probably the bike-life group. as it was about the right time for them.

It's going to get harder to find space on the roads for everyone.

RoryW

"Vincent Patrick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I find the description "reasonable distance" to be frustrating and not
very
useful, since some drivers' idea of reasonable might be only 20 or 30 cm.

It would be more helpful if the law was changed to force a motorised
vehicle
passing a cyclist to allow a minimum distance of (say): 50 cm + 10 cm *
(km/hr / 10) , in other words half a metre distance + 10 cm for each 10
km/hr of vehicle speed. This would provide a legal minimum of one metre
clearance on slow suburban streets, and 1.5 metres on a fast highway.

Cheers,

Vince

As a cyclist myself on those rare occasions I actually drive a car when I
have to go past cyclists I slow right down and give them 1 meter or more
room if the road is not wide enough I wait for a decent gap in the oncoming
traffic so I can safely pass.

I know what it is like to be clipped by a passing car as a young girl on her
P plates clipped my handle bars with the side of her car, I fell onto the
side of the car and as the car kept moving I eventually fell off the back
onto the road behind her, I was very lucky that there was not a car
following close behind or I would have been under it.

I also recently had some idiot change lanes on me and he missed my handle
bars by only around 1 to 2 cm's, I had no where to go as there was a
concrete barrier on the side of the road, I did not get the number plate as
I was more concerned about staying on my bike.

Then about a week ago my father and I were riding over a weir / causeway
that had about 5 cm's of water over it, then some [censored] head in a small truck
decided it would be great to overtake us as fast as he could go so he could
cover us in water.
He nearly clipped both me and my father as he lost control of the rear end
and it went sideways into us, it nearly knocked my father into the water off
the side of the wier and he missed my handle bars by only a few cm's.
I managed to get the number plate and we have reported him to the police, we
also know where he works so I am going to call in and ask who was driving
the truck on that day and expect to have a visit from the police.

Quoted message said:

CYCLISTS in the Dandenong Ranges are being verbally abused and narrowly
missed by aggressive drivers, a leading cyclist claims.

11/10/06 morning I attached a 1m flag sticking out to the right from my
handlebars.
It definitely gets motorists away from you, further than I would of
thought.
I didn't think about the extra 1/2 meter or more most cars will give
away from
the flag. Of course those few cars that used to pass relatively close
to me now
are much further away from me. So far no abuse, and no flag hits.
I'll see how this
"experiment" continues...

Daniel

Quoted message said:

CYCLISTS in the Dandenong Ranges are being verbally abused and narrowly
missed by aggressive drivers, a leading cyclist claims.

11/10/06 morning I attached a 1m flag sticking out to the right from my
handlebars.
It definitely gets motorists away from you, further than I would of
thought.
I didn't think about the extra 1/2 meter or more most cars will give
away from
the flag. Of course those few cars that used to pass relatively close
to me now
are much further away from me. So far no abuse, and no flag hits.
I'll see how this
"experiment" continues...

Daniel

Dan the free bike man said:

11/10/06 morning I attached a 1m flag sticking out to the right from
my handlebars.

You're breaking the law Dan.

Theo

Theo Bekkers said:

Dan the free bike man said:

11/10/06 morning I attached a 1m flag sticking out to the right from
my handlebars.

You're breaking the law Dan.

Theo

Hi,

It might be unlawful, but it is interesting that a wider target induces car
drivers to give significantly more room. In an indirect way, having a flag
is something like riding further out from the curb, which I have noticed
encourages car drivers to give more space.

Purely out of curiosity, does anyone know what maximum bicycle handlebar
width is allowed by law?

Cheers,

Vince

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:45:48 +0800

Vincent Patrick said:

It might be unlawful, but it is interesting that a wider target induces car
drivers to give significantly more room. In an indirect way, having a flag
is something like riding further out from the curb, which I have noticed
encourages car drivers to give more space.

I think the wide seat and the panniers on the bent tend to make people
give it more room.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:45:48 +0800

Vincent Patrick said:

It might be unlawful, but it is interesting that a wider target induces
car
drivers to give significantly more room. In an indirect way, having a
flag is something like riding further out from the curb, which I have
noticed encourages car drivers to give more space.

I think the wide seat and the panniers on the bent tend to make people
give it more room.

Zebee

Exactly. {Note that I'm studiously avoiding alternative hypotheses about
car drivers giving bent and wobbly old blokes more room}

If apparent size is a safety issue for bicycles, then perhaps flags of some
reasonable width should even be made legal.

Cheers,

Vince

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:37:56 +0800

Vincent Patrick said:

Exactly. {Note that I'm studiously avoiding alternative hypotheses about
car drivers giving bent and wobbly old blokes more room}

Hey, If they think I'm dangerous I'm not going to disabuse them!

Quoted message said:

If apparent size is a safety issue for bicycles, then perhaps flags of some
reasonable width should even be made legal.

What's the law that makes them illegal?

Zebee

Rory Williams said:

I assumed it was probably the bike-life group. as it was about the right time for them.

doubt it. they pass thru Sassafras then go down toward Monbulk, up 'The Wall' then back down to Sassafras again, so wrong direction for them

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:37:56 +0800

Vincent Patrick said:

Exactly. {Note that I'm studiously avoiding alternative hypotheses about
car drivers giving bent and wobbly old blokes more room}

Hey, If they think I'm dangerous I'm not going to disabuse them!

Quoted message said:

If apparent size is a safety issue for bicycles, then perhaps flags of
some reasonable width should even be made legal.

What's the law that makes them illegal?

Zebee

I don't know for sure that it is unlawful to have flags sticking out, but
was working on the assumption that Theo was correct in his earlier comment.

It would be interesting to clarify this, actually.

Cheers,

Vince

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:58:36 +0800

Vincent Patrick said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

What's the law that makes them illegal?

I don't know for sure that it is unlawful to have flags sticking out, but
was working on the assumption that Theo was correct in his earlier comment.

There's a bit in the national road rules:
292 Insecure or overhanging load
A driver must not drive or tow a vehicle if the vehicle is
carrying a load that:
[...]
(c) projects from the vehicle in a way that is likely to injure a
person, obstruct the path of other drivers or pedestrians, or
damage a vehicle or anything else (for example, the road
surface).

NOw I'd say that if the flag was flexible and/or only extended to the
safe passing distance, that that was legal.

Else handlebars would be forbidden....

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

There's a bit in the national road rules:
292 Insecure or overhanging load
A driver must not drive or tow a vehicle if the vehicle is
carrying a load that:
[...]
(c) projects from the vehicle in a way that is likely to injure a
person, obstruct the path of other drivers or pedestrians, or
damage a vehicle or anything else (for example, the road
surface).

NOw I'd say that if the flag was flexible and/or only extended to the
safe passing distance, that that was legal.

Else handlebars would be forbidden....

Commercially available 'flags' are sold, paddle-shaped, made of plastic with
a red reflector on the end. Fitted onto the rear rack they extend out
300-400mm and flip out of the way if hit by anything or when parking the
bike. These help persuade drivers to give you more room, but would be very
unlikely to damage another vehicle.

Personally I find two rear panniers work just as well, helping to establish
a wide presence on the roads and drivers seem to realise they need to change
lanes rather than 'elbow-shave'.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Peter Signorini said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

There's a bit in the national road rules:
292 Insecure or overhanging load
A driver must not drive or tow a vehicle if the vehicle is
carrying a load that:
[...]
(c) projects from the vehicle in a way that is likely to injure a
person, obstruct the path of other drivers or pedestrians, or
damage a vehicle or anything else (for example, the road
surface).

NOw I'd say that if the flag was flexible and/or only extended to the
safe passing distance, that that was legal.

Else handlebars would be forbidden....

Commercially available 'flags' are sold, paddle-shaped, made of plastic
with a red reflector on the end. Fitted onto the rear rack they extend out
300-400mm and flip out of the way if hit by anything or when parking the
bike. These help persuade drivers to give you more room, but would be very
unlikely to damage another vehicle.

Personally I find two rear panniers work just as well, helping to
establish a wide presence on the roads and drivers seem to realise they
need to change lanes rather than 'elbow-shave'.

Interesting - I wonder why flags are not common with commuter cyclists.
Wind resistance and wasted energy?

Cheers,

Vince