verticale dropout

Fixed said:

Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
dropouts?
give and take a few years

Early 1990s. There was a substantial crossover period though.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Fixed said:

Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
dropouts?
give and take a few years

Early 1990s. There was a substantial crossover period though.

Mainstream, anyway. Actually they go way, way back, probably to the dawn of the
rear derailer. I'm sure someone had their brain turned on back then.

Matt O.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

Fixed said:

Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
dropouts?
give and take a few years

Early 1990s. There was a substantial crossover period though.

Mainstream, anyway. Actually they go way, way back, probably to the dawn of the
rear derailer. I'm sure someone had their brain turned on back then.

Matt O.

Ditto- I was using Campy vertical dropouts on a recumbent trike
project ( http://www.pacifier.com/~jwills/Gallery/Aerorivr.jpg ) in
1982. I think they were in the Campy catalog five years before that-
if not more.

Jeff

Fixed said:

Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
dropouts?
give and take a few years

about 1960.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Fixed said:

Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
dropouts?
give and take a few years

Zog The Undeniable wrote:> Early 1990s. There was a
substantial crossover period though.

Uh, about 30 years before that.
In the 60s, Jackson and Bertin at least used them, that I
know of. By 1971 Garlatti/Welker used them for all models.
The affordable 1973 Sekai 2400 had them and by the late
seventies they were not unusual. I'm sure others can recall
other brands/models. And most custom builders offered them
even if they were not standard.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Fixed-<< Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
dropouts? >><BR><BR>

There are still 'race framesets' that use horizontal dropouts...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

matt-<< Actually they go way, way back, probably to the dawn of the
rear derailer. I'm sure someone had their brain turned on back then.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Before that...flipflop hubs with a bigger cog on one side for climbing...had to
have horizontal dropouts or at least a chain tensioner...probably early
1900s...easily in the first TdF...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Fixed said:

Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
dropouts?
give and take a few years

Zog The Undeniable wrote:> Early 1990s. There was a substantial
crossover period though.

Uh, about 30 years before that.
In the 60s, Jackson and Bertin at least used them, that I know of. By
1971 Garlatti/Welker used them for all models. The affordable 1973 Sekai
2400 had them and by the late seventies they were not unusual. I'm sure
others can recall other brands/models. And most custom builders offered
them even if they were not standard.

I suppose it depends what your definition of "framebuilders" is. My
1992 racing bike has horizontal dropouts and IIRC is was about 50-50
around that time. Some people preferred the old type because you could
get a badly-dished wheel to work, e.g. if you got one from a neutral
service vehicle.

a shy person said:

Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to use
verticale dropouts give and take a few years?

Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts and equipped
the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first saw them. I made
replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with them. Cino
Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo, gave him a set. A
year or so later, these were offered as standard equipment on many
Campagnolo equipped bicycles.

There was a reticence to use them because they could not easily be
used with a fixed gear, something racers of the day used religiously
for early season training on their road bicycles... because the
ancients did that. This fad faded and so did the horizontal dropout
that was part of the cause for axle failures, the jam nut being
supported only vertically and free to swivel fore and aft with chain
tension that is several times as great as vertical bending loads.

Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in handlebar stems,
slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.

Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

a shy person said:

Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to use
verticale dropouts give and take a few years?

Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts and
equipped the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first saw them.
I made replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with them.
Cino Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo, gave him a
set. A year or so later, these were offered as standard equipment
on many Campagnolo equipped bicycles.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in handlebar stems,
slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.

Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.

And even longer, the French "constructeurs" having used them on bikes
for randonneurs in the 40's so that a tight fender line could be
maintained from the seat tube to the mounting stays- along with a
dropout mounted "dummy cog" onto which the chain could be shifted to
remove the rear wheel without having to directly touch the chain. On
the other hand, their adherence to the Cyclo and Nivex derailleurs
held them back as that technology improved.

As well, "threadless" stems were common among high-end French bikes
such as Singer and Herse in the 40's to 50's and abandoned because of
lack of easy adjustment for height. In those days, the headsets were
still threaded and the stem clamped onto a short piece of plain tubing
brazed into the top of the steerer. That actually makes more sense to
me than the current threadless design, which makes bearing preload
dependent on the stem pinch bolt; if your bars get knocked off-center
somehow, you may have to readjust the headset rather than just
twisting the bars back on-center and riding away.

There are drawings of attempts at shifter-controlled indexed shifting
in the 40's as well, documented by Daniel Rebour. Ditto front and
rear suspension.

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a shy person said:

Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to use
verticale dropouts give and take a few years?

Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts and
equipped the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first saw them.
I made replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with them.
Cino Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo, gave him a
set. A year or so later, these were offered as standard equipment
on many Campagnolo equipped bicycles.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in handlebar stems,
slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.

Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.

And even longer, the French "constructeurs" having used them on bikes
for randonneurs in the 40's so that a tight fender line could be
maintained from the seat tube to the mounting stays- along with a
dropout mounted "dummy cog" onto which the chain could be shifted to
remove the rear wheel without having to directly touch the chain. On
the other hand, their adherence to the Cyclo and Nivex derailleurs
held them back as that technology improved.

As well, "threadless" stems were common among high-end French bikes
such as Singer and Herse in the 40's to 50's and abandoned because of
lack of easy adjustment for height. In those days, the headsets were
still threaded and the stem clamped onto a short piece of plain tubing
brazed into the top of the steerer. That actually makes more sense to
me than the current threadless design, which makes bearing preload
dependent on the stem pinch bolt; if your bars get knocked off-center
somehow, you may have to readjust the headset rather than just
twisting the bars back on-center and riding away.

There are drawings of attempts at shifter-controlled indexed shifting
in the 40's as well, documented by Daniel Rebour. Ditto front and
rear suspension.

Sachs 3 speed index in the late 30's

Michael

"Waal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a shy person writes:

> Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to

use

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> verticale dropouts give and take a few years?

Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

equipped the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first

saw them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I made replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with

them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cino Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo,

gave him a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set. A year or so later, these were offered as standard

equipment

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on many Campagnolo equipped bicycles.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in

handlebar stems,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.

Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.

And even longer, the French "constructeurs" having used them

on bikes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for randonneurs in the 40's so that a tight fender line could

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

maintained from the seat tube to the mounting stays- along

with a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dropout mounted "dummy cog" onto which the chain could be

shifted to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

remove the rear wheel without having to directly touch the

chain. On

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the other hand, their adherence to the Cyclo and Nivex

derailleurs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

held them back as that technology improved.

As well, "threadless" stems were common among high-end French

bikes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

such as Singer and Herse in the 40's to 50's and abandoned

because of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lack of easy adjustment for height. In those days, the

headsets were

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

still threaded and the stem clamped onto a short piece of

plain tubing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

brazed into the top of the steerer. That actually makes more

sense to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

me than the current threadless design, which makes bearing

preload

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dependent on the stem pinch bolt; if your bars get knocked

off-center

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

somehow, you may have to readjust the headset rather than

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

twisting the bars back on-center and riding away.

There are drawings of attempts at shifter-controlled indexed

shifting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the 40's as well, documented by Daniel Rebour. Ditto

front and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rear suspension.

Sachs 3 speed index in the late 30's

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Gore. -- Jay Beattie.