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VELORUTION! (bike revolution)

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rec.bicycles.rides
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18 April 2008
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23 April 2008
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ComandanteBanana
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  1. OK, assume a far away land --a Banana Republic if you will-- where the
    cyclists are victims of discrimination and injustice, and all of a
    sudden they come to power... and voila, VELORUTION!

    Like the article bellow says, not all vehicles are equal... The
    smaller, the more protection they need; the bigger, the more
    responsibility. On urban multi-lane roads, the right lane has a set
    speed of 20mph, monitored by speed cameras. Bikes ride the lane. Do
    they get tickets for running red lights? Nah, they hurt no one but
    themselves.

    WHAT WOULD THE ROAD BE LIKE FOR CYCLISTS?

    Be sure to have your T-shirt ready... 😉

    http://www.zazzle.com/donquijote1954/product/235838593835516450?CMPN=ltt

    This article describes how cyclists are at the bottom of the food
    chain, even in a place known for traffic safety. Which means there
    needs to be a worldwide change for cyclists' rights...

    Cyclists are Victims of the Law of the Jungle

    And in reference to the above article about London, this reader states
    that cyclists should not have equal rights as automobiles, but
    actually MORE rights.

    Again, before there's war, it's better to separate.

    Velorution in the mind The Financial Times has a worthy but dull
    article on the resurgence of urban cycling in the UK, with a focus on
    London. It cannot escape from the cliche' of the number of people
    riding through red lights; it is like if every article about digital
    photography mentioned people taking illegal pictures at museums. Of
    course figures of injuries caused by riding through red lights are
    never offered.

    The torpor in the journalist's mind is evident in the last few
    paragraphs:

    There's no doubt that car drivers need to clean up their act. Taking
    speed limits down to 20mph in built-up areas will make the roads safer
    for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians alike. Enforcing the ban on
    mobile phone use will help drivers become more attentive. And applying
    the Highway Code more strictly will make many people think twice about
    engaging in the current bully-boy hierarchy of bigger is better.
    ....

    Now, saying that motor vehicles should have the same rights as
    pedestrians or cyclists is like saying that water skiers should be
    allowed on all waters in front of a popular beach. The Highway Code by
    instigating this non-sensical equality status, that inevitably leads
    to the law of the jungle, is bunk. It has the same moral standing as
    the South African Pbutt Law.

    It is not abiding to rules that we should exhort, but consideration to
    all other people and especially to those who are more vulnerable than
    ourselves. Yes there are definitely inconsiderate bicycle riders in
    London, and it is absolutely no excuse to say, 'It is a jungle out
    there, I need to defend my self'. We need to raise the level of social
    responsibility, starting by ourselves. The roads are a commons to be
    enjoyed by everyone, starting by people on foot. Then the greater or
    more dangerous the vehicle one chooses to use, the fewer rights one
    has and the more consideration one needs to give to more vulnerable
    people.

    http://www.ugroups.com/driver/Cyclists-are-Victims-of-the-Law-of-the-Jungle-4890.html

    WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION?
    http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

  2. Pat said:

    There is no bicycle war. There will be no war. It's all in your head.

    Nobody said there's going to be war, just velorution.

    But remember I said in a far away land, and "the chain is not stronger
    than its weakest link," and there are many places boiling in the
    world, like say Haiti.

    They could use a lot of bikes instead of buying junk cars shipped from
    Miami.

  3. "ComandanteBanana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Pat said:

    There is no bicycle war. There will be no war. It's all in your head.

    Nobody said there's going to be war, just velorution.

    But remember I said in a far away land, and "the chain is not stronger
    than its weakest link," and there are many places boiling in the
    world, like say Haiti.

    They could use a lot of bikes instead of buying junk cars shipped from
    Miami.

    The people in Haiti are starving to death and you want them to ride bikes
    and die from expending the little energy they are getting from food? That
    is really sick.

  4. Jack May said:

    "ComandanteBanana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Pat said:

    There is no bicycle war. There will be no war. It's all in your head.

    Quoted message said:

    Nobody said there's going to be war, just velorution.

    Quoted message said:

    But remember I said in a far away land, and "the chain is not stronger
    than its weakest link," and there are many places boiling in the
    world, like say Haiti.

    Quoted message said:

    They could use a lot of bikes instead of buying junk cars shipped from
    Miami.

    The people in Haiti are starving to death and you want them to ride bikes
    and die from expending the little energy they are getting from food?  That
    is really sick.

    Well, this is the introduction I gave it to them...

    Are Blacks the only victims of Apartheid?

    Not only them, but the people who are poor and the people who ride
    bicycles... Yep, poverty and bikes have to do with democracy. The poor
    need bicycles to get to work, so they can eat. But more often than
    not, it ain't safe to ride a bike, even in the richest nations of the
    Earth! Cyclists are treated like second-class citizens, where SUVs
    signal power and money, just like among the elites who rule the poor
    nations. So it is that this revolution puts together LIBERATION,
    BICYCLES AND DEMOCRACY...

  5. "ComandanteBanana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    OK, assume a far away land --a Banana Republic if you will-- where
    the
    cyclists are victims of discrimination and injustice, and all of a
    sudden they come to power... and voila, VELORUTION!

    Goodness gracious. All this is very un-British. I live, and ride my
    bicycle in London, which seems to be the far-away land that you are
    talking about. London's a pretty good city to ride a bicycle in, no
    need for new laws or conventions.

    We have a book that tells you how to do it, and describes the rules
    and conventions which people should, and indeed do follow. It's
    "Cyclecraft", by John Franklin. Highly recommended if you don't want
    to win yourself a Darwin award.

    Jeremy Parker

  6. (Hey, it seems that the Christians in their SUVs are in control of our
    roads. What's a monkey riding a bike to do?)

    OK, I finally took delivery of official vehicle of the revolution (the
    trike), with plenty of space in the basket to carry bananas for the
    lions.

    Well, I made it alive because I rode the back alleys, gutters and
    sidewalks of America, a strategy developed by our ancestors the
    monkeys when they kept to the tree branches in order to survive. I
    think on the road of evolution, [censored] Sapiens somehow lost all common
    sense. Somehow the alpha-male monkeys wanted to be a lion...

    It was a nice ride.

    http://www.zazzle.com/donquijote1954/product/235602224199217660

    WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE
    http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

  7. In article <[email hidden]>,

    ComandanteBanana said:

    (Hey, it seems that the Christians in their SUVs are in control of our
    roads.

    Whaddaya expect? It's Sunday morning.

    What's a monkey riding a bike to do?)

    Scratch his ass and say: "Ook, ook."

    Quoted message said:

    OK, I finally took delivery of official vehicle of the revolution (the
    trike), with plenty of space in the basket to carry bananas for the
    lions.

    You must indeed be a sight to behold.

    I hope you don't leave banana peels lyin' around
    on the streets.

    --
    Nothing is safe from me.
    I'm really at:
    tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

  8. (Tom Keats) said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    ComandanteBanana said:

    (Hey, it seems that the Christians in their SUVs are in control of our
    roads.

    Whaddaya expect?  It's Sunday morning.

    What's a monkey riding a bike to do?)

    Scratch his ass and say: "Ook, ook."

    Well, that's actually a principle of solidarity (like that should
    exist among the cyclists)...

    http://www.zazzle.com/donquijote1954/product/235544539565161514

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    OK, I finally took delivery of official vehicle of the revolution (the
    trike), with plenty of space in the basket to carry bananas for the
    lions.

    You must indeed be a sight to behold.

    I hope you don't leave banana peels lyin' around
    on the streets.

    Actually, that's my secret weapon. Also you have to know everything
    about the jungle.

    A monkey’s survival depend on knowing what’s going on in the jungle.
    He knows the beasts are out there, and must stay out of their reach
    because they are stupid and violent. That’s why the monkeys are still
    around…

    Motorist runs over woman, crashes into Walmart

    PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. (WSVN)—A woman is in critical condition after the
    driver of pickup truck reportedly ran her over intentionally in a
    Walmart parking lot Friday.

    Police said the driver of the truck repeatedly rammed the woman’s mini-
    van at the superstore along the 1800 block of Pines Boulevard. When
    the victimized motorist tried to escape her vehicle, the enraged truck
    driver ran over her and crashed his pickup into the retailer’s garden
    center.

    Authorities arrested the truck’s driver.

    Paramedics trnsporte the victim to Memorial Regional Hospital.

    http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI83576/

  9. On Apr 19, 3:39 pm, "Jeremy Parker" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    "ComandanteBanana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    OK, assume a far away land --a Banana Republic if you will-- where
    the
    cyclists are victims of discrimination and injustice, and all of a
    sudden they come to power... and voila, VELORUTION!

    Goodness gracious.  All this is very un-British.  I live, and ride my
    bicycle in London, which seems to be the far-away land that you are
    talking about.  London's a pretty good city to ride a bicycle in, no
    need for new laws or conventions.

    Oh, c'mon. The article was written by a Briton about Great Britain.
    I've said your driving laws are very good and your new laws
    restricting traffic into London are very encouraging, but I trust the
    writer's statement that cyclists still live under the law of the
    jungle in London to be right.

    Either London is like Amsterdam, or it's not a welcoming place for
    cyclists. How many people ride bike in London? Give me a percentage to
    show.

    Anyway, I'd rather ride a bike in London than in places where still
    the drivers ignore any civilized rules of the road. In America we have
    to tame the beast first. 😉

    I read the reviews of the book, but I'm sure even bullfighting can be
    done in a safe way if you know the tricks of the trade beyond "never
    stand before the bull"...

    http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/book_intro.html

  10. One of the problems we've got is that everybody is armed and
    dangerous. Nowadays the good-ol'-fashioned finger is not enough. Some
    carry a gun, and some simply use their vehicles as the weapon. What's
    a cyclist to do in such a jungle? I'm going to write a book, "Monkey
    survival skills for the cyclist." First advice...

    http://www.zazzle.com/donquijote1954/product/235149274811492050

    Road rage runs rampant
    on Bay Area highways

    ....

    For whatever reason, one's genitalia grow exponentially while moving
    at 40 mph in a steel and aluminum cage. Being at the helm of a 2-ton
    machine makes people feel powerful, I would assume, leading to extreme
    reactions from otherwise rational people.

    Unfortunately, those extreme reactions are becoming more deadly.

    As reported by the San Francisco Chronicle, a man driving on
    Interstate Highway 280 was shot from a passing car. The man who died,
    Luis Solari, died in front of his kids in the car. His offense: He cut
    someone off.

    The worst part is that this wasn't the first on Bay Area freeways this
    month.

    A woman was shot and killed April 3 on Interstate Highway 80 near
    Pinole, and a man was shot along the same stretch of freeway April 1.
    An arrest has been made in the former incident.

    A gun is unnecessary, and says a lot about violence in our society.
    Few problems, especially ones relating to cars, have ever been solved
    by use of a gun. Words, even hand gestures, are better answers to the
    whole problem. No one gets hurt with any of those.

    Even fisticuffs are better. Bruises go away over time.

    But expressing one's disgust at other people's driving by shooting a
    gun at them is revealing because it's solving the problem of anger
    with violence. Those who could angrily waive guns at you from passing
    automobiles and potentially use them, may be showing their small
    children in the back seats how not to act.

    Until this point, the worst I got for cutting someone off was the
    finger, not a bullet in the chest.

    http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/2008/04/14/Opinion/Road-Rage.Runs.Rampant.On.Bay.Area.Highways-3321714.shtml

  11. Bob said:

    On Apr 20, 5:49 pm, ComandanteBanana <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    One of the problems we've got is that everybody is armed and
    dangerous.

    Hyperbole must be part of the Troll's Rules of Conduct. If "everybody
    is armed and dangerous" every day should be one gigantic bloodbath
    with hundreds of thousands killed or maimed yet that isn't the case.

    There are such a bad combination: BAD LAWS + CARS + GUNS = DEATH &
    FEAR

    Yep, bad laws --or lack of good laws-- start the cycle of violence.
    Case in point is the lack of legislation or enforcement about passing
    laws. Here's what's going on in my particular city that shouldn't be
    much different from your average American city...

    Quoted message said:

    Miami is such a sprawling area. I don’t see how, even in the best possible circumstances, how the ENTIRE city could be bike-friendly.

    Politicians and officers don’t care about bikes, one way or the other.
    There ain’t much money in it. And basically you are at the good will
    of drivers, who often feel cyclists are, at best, a nuisance.

    But ALL IS NEEDED IS THE RIGHT LAWS, one that let’s you pass on the
    left when in a hurry, and go slow on the right --as slow as 20mph if
    we want to accomodate scooters and bikes. That’s THE WAY THEY DO IT IN
    CIVILIZED COUNTRIES, not in the Banana Republics…

    Road Rage Bill Clears Committee

    A bill aimed at curbing road rage made it through its first Senate
    committee, though similar legislation has stalled in recent years.

    The legislation would attempt to reduce road rage by requiring drivers
    to move out of the farthest lane left when being overtaken by faster
    vehicles. It also would improve the flow of traffic, said the bill’s
    sponsor, Sen. Mike Bennett, R-Bradenton.

    One problem with the bill is that a person driving the legal speed
    limit could be ticketed for not pulling over for someone who is
    exceeding it, said Sen. Alex Villalobos, R-Miami, who voted against
    the bill. The bill would also cause problems during rush hour because
    there’s always someone in the left lane wanting to pass the car in
    front of him, he said.

    The Senate Committee on Transportation approved the bill (SB 658) with
    a vote of 4-3. A similar House bill (HB 1177) passed its first
    committee last week. The bill has several more stops before making it
    to the floor of either chamber.

    http://www.theledger.com/article/20080326/NEWS/803260577/1374

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Until this point, the worst I got for cutting someone off was the
    finger, not a bullet in the chest.

    The inference to be drawn from this would seem to be that you've
    recently been shot for cutting someone off in traffic. In that case,
    best wishes for a speedy recovery- and stop cutting people off.

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

    I simply quoted that article, but I share his concern. Settling
    something with a finger or a gun are two different things.

    The result of the equation above is that people are exposed to a real
    threat, particularly if they assert their right with a finger. And
    while few people actually get shot, the rest of the population live in
    fear. Particularly the cyclists.

    And we would have to start with changing the laws of the republic...

  12. The only hope the cyclists got is that things get bad enough in the
    international jungle. Yep, what may be bad news for the Stupid
    Unnecessary Vehicles, may be good news for the smart and efficient
    cyclits...

    Oil prices spike to record above $117
    Monday April 21, 9:53 am ET

    Oil prices climb to record above $117 a barrel after Mideast attack on
    Japanese oil tanker

    Oil prices spiked to a record above $117 a barrel on Monday after a
    Japanese oil tanker was attacked off the east coast of Yemen.
    The 150,000-ton tanker Takayama was attacked about 270 miles off the
    Yemen coast in the Gulf of Aden while it was heading for Saudi Arabia,
    its Japanese operator, Nippon Yusen K.K., said in a statement posted
    on its Web site.

    ***

    But no need to cry over the soccer moms. They can use something like
    this...

    (cute, no?)

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/triolife_5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/05/triobike_pushch.html&h=378&w=488&sz=39&hl=en&start=34&um=1&tbnid=2alHcBjsHsKZ9M:&tbnh=101&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbicycle%2Bsuv%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

  13. On Apr 21, 2:35 am, Harry Brogan

    hbrogan57_AT_NOSPAM_DOT_YAHOO_DOT_COM said:
    Bob said:

    On Apr 20, 5:49 pm, ComandanteBanana <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    One of the problems we've got is that everybody is armed and
    dangerous.

    Quoted message said:

    Hyperbole must be part of the Troll's Rules of Conduct. If "everybody
    is armed and dangerous" every day should be one gigantic bloodbath
    with hundreds of thousands killed or maimed yet that isn't the case.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Until this point, the worst I got for cutting someone off was the
    finger, not a bullet in the chest.

    Quoted message said:

    The inference to be drawn from this would seem to be that you've
    recently been shot for cutting someone off in traffic. In that case,
    best wishes for a speedy recovery- and stop cutting people off.

    Quoted message said:

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

    It's only relatively recently, here in the U.S., that people have not
    been able to be "armed" while out and about. I don't recall reading
    anywhere about the "old west" being a blood bath.
    __o | Every time I see an adult on a bicycle....
    _`\(,_ | I no longer despair for the human race.
    (_)/ (_) | ---H.G. Wells---- Hide quoted text -

    Well, it seems to have been pretty wild...

    I don't think many travellers would have dared ride a horse alone. No
    safer than riding a bike in traffic today.

    That's why "circle the wagons" came to be a popular saying.

  14. [snip]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Goodness gracious. All this is very un-British. I live, and ride
    my
    bicycle in London, which seems to be the far-away land that you
    are
    talking about. London's a pretty good city to ride a bicycle in,
    no
    need for new laws or conventions.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, c'mon. The article was written by a Briton about Great Britain.

    As, indeed, was my previous e-mail. As indeed is this one. I can
    look out of my window, right here, at actual London traffic.

    Quoted message said:

    I've said your driving laws are very good

    Thankyou. I missed that posting, I guess. My apologies. What is it
    about our laws that impresses you? Are we unique, or do other places
    have similar laws?

    Quoted message said:

    and your new laws
    restricting traffic into London are very encouraging,

    Well, I have to admit that we haven't quite reached perfection yet.
    Oxford Street, for example, from which private cars were already
    banned before the congestion charge, has obviously - all too
    obviously - not had its congestion reduced at all, because all those
    buses, taxis, and delivery vehicles still clog it up. The "City"
    part of London probably benefited more from the "ring of steel" anti
    terrorism precautions which were introduced somewhat before the
    congestion charges reduced motorised traffic still further.

    Quoted message said:

    but I trust the
    writer's statement that cyclists still live under the law of the
    jungle in London to be right.

    Hmm. As one who lives here, and cycles here, I would say that is
    unwise. Cycling is safe enough here that, if you do choose to live
    by the law of the jungle, your mean free path between collisions
    might be long enough for you to get away with it, but it's still not
    a good idea.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Either London is like Amsterdam, or it's not a welcoming place for


    cyclists.

    Now you are just being silly. Cambridge is the British city which
    has more cycling than Amsterdam, but I think that London is a better
    city to cycle in than Cambridge. Of course, London has a good enough
    public transport system for really the only reason to ride a bike in
    London to be because it is fun. People travel thousands of miles to
    come and ride on our buses, and our taxis, and their drivers, really
    are wonderful. A London taxi can carry a bike, too, in case of
    emergency.

    London is rather bigger than Amsterdam. London was the largest city
    in the world when I was growing up, although other ciries have long
    since overtaken it. Amsterdam is such a dinky little town that you
    can **walk** from the center of town - the main train station - to
    the Ring Road, their beltway, in an hour.

    Quoted message said:

    How many people ride bike in London?

    The should be new annual figures out any time now - watch for a press
    release from Transport for London on their web site www.tfl.gov.uk.
    Last years figures estimate 480 000 journeys a day. I would guess
    that most people take around two journeys a day, rather than getting
    on the train with their bike to come home again. Whether this
    includes journeys to a train station, I don't know. Most London
    statistics count only the "main leg" of a journey, so riding to the
    station to catch a train might not be counted

    Quoted message said:

    Give me a percentage to
    show.

    About 1.5% averaged over all London. Around 7% in Central London
    (roughly the congestion charge zone). The south western part of
    London seems to have a higher rate of cycling than average, nobody
    knows why. London is tending now to base its statistics on the
    automatic bike counters on the TLRN (Trunk London Road Network)
    Because of the nature of the TLRN this might lead to some
    undercounting in Outer London.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, I'd rather ride a bike in London than in places where still
    the drivers ignore any civilized rules of the road. In America we
    have
    to tame the beast first. 😉

    Having ridden many miles on both sides of th Altlantic, I would say
    that there is not much in it, though there are, of course, many
    places in the USA where I have not ridden (Chicago, for example).
    Civilized or not - that might depend on your definition of civilized,
    which doesn't always seem to be the same as everyone's on this
    newsgroup - I would say that there always are rules, and when you
    ride or bike, or are anywhere among other people, it's advisable to
    know what those rules are.

    Quoted message said:

    I read the reviews of the book, but I'm sure even bullfighting can
    be
    done in a safe way if you know the tricks of the trade

    [snip]

    The moral of which, I take it, is to know the tricks of the trade.
    Buy a copy of "Effective Cycling"

    Jeremy Parker

  15. Hey, I speak in parables (like Jesus), but I don’t have a clue if
    people understand them. Well, just in case they don’t here’s an easy
    explanation…

    (Tom Keats) said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    “ZBicyclist” said:
    ComandanteBanana said:

    On Apr 20, 12:16 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>
    wrote:
    > ComandanteBanana aka donquixote1954 wrote:
    >> OK, I finally took delivery of official vehicle of the revolution
    >> (the trike), with plenty of space in the basket to carry bananas
    >> for the lions.[...]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > What type of lions eat bananas?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The ones that are actually hungry to eat them. And they have the guts
    for it. It’s in the Bible.

    Quoted message said:

    Cite?

    There’s something by Isaiah about how the lion
    shall eat straw, like the ox.

    As an erstwhile guardian of felines, I can
    assert they do eat grass. They don’t digest
    it very well, though. I had a Persian/alley cat
    (I called him “Balzac"😉 that enjoyed the occasional
    piece of doughnut. He weighed 23 lbs, and lived
    just as many years. He only growled once in his
    life, and that was because of a severe toothache.

    Personally, I dislike bananas. I’m not terribly
    partial toward straw, either. I’d rather eat
    the ox.

    And y’know what? Lions lead such tough, tragic
    lives.

    Interesting fact is that the Rich and Powerful surround themselves
    with statues of lions and claim the lion in their family crest, so it
    is that the lion is their cherished symbol. (They hate the monkey --
    their real self-- for the same reason.)

    And what’s the symbol for the down and out? The monkeys, of course.

    So the statement that the lions eat banana could be understood to mean
    that they’ll be humbled. When the monkey was cornered by the beast, he
    said, “You can eat my banana!”

  16. ComandanteBanana said:


    I simply quoted that article, but I share his concern. Settling
    something with a finger or a gun are two different things.

    The result of the equation above is that people are exposed to a real
    threat, particularly if they assert their right with a finger. And
    while few people actually get shot, the rest of the population live in
    fear. Particularly the cyclists.

    And we would have to start with changing the laws of the republic...

    Florida gives you an option to deal with this:
    http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/index.html

  17. Had you left Jesus out of it and stopped after saying-

    Quoted message said:

    Hey, I speak in parables (like Jesus), but I don’t have a clue


    I doubt many here would disagree.

    Regards,
    Bob Hunt

  18. Bob Hunt said:

    Had you left Jesus out of it and stopped after saying-

    Quoted message said:

    Hey, I speak in parables (like Jesus), but I don’t have a clue


    I doubt many here would disagree.


    LOL!

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

  19. Eric Vey said:
    ComandanteBanana said:

    I simply quoted that article, but I share his concern. Settling
    something with a finger or a gun are two different things.

    Quoted message said:

    The result of the equation above is that people are exposed to a real
    threat, particularly if they assert their right with a finger. And
    while few people actually get shot, the rest of the population live in
    fear. Particularly the cyclists.

    Quoted message said:

    And we would have to start with changing the laws of the republic...

    Florida gives you an option to deal with this:http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/index.html

    That's the only option left... In the jungle, if everybody got paws
    and teeth, you better get ready yourself.

    Only that it's kind of impractical for cyclists to carry a gun under a
    lycra short. But then you can wear a T-shirt like this...

    http://www.zazzle.com/donquijote1954/product/235283217745636359

  20. Zoot Katz said:

    On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:35:29 -0500, Harry Brogan

    hbrogan57_AT_NOSPAM_DOT_YAHOO_DOT_COM said:
    Quoted message said:

    How homicidal was the Old West? According to the best historical
    evidence today, the answer is: Extremely Homicidal. Thus, another bit
    of academic folklore bites the dust.
    ======================================================

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    - Frank Krygowski

    Quoted message said:

    KUDOS to you on your research. However, will that stand up to ALL of
    the "old west". Starting at about the Mississippi river and
    continuing westward. It would seem that the information you have
    provided is all California and does not include other states.

    I'd like to know if that historic data includes the genocide of the
    native American people.
    Or maybe it was a "war" so civilian casualties don't count.
    --
    zk

    Indians --like cyclists-- count for little in the West. They must be
    happy with whatever space is left for them. Usually barren land, the
    equivalent of the gutters the cyclists get today.

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